Ringer article on Seahawks Offense

OrangeGravy

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Well if Russ suddenly starts taking checkdowns, throwing across the middle and throwing on time, we will know that it was all on coaching and offensive philosophy here. If we see the same stuff as here then we will know it's on him. Even with "the same Russ" he and the Denver offence will still put up good numbers like he did in Seattle.
You might see Russ do those things early on in Denver, but at some point when under duress, he'll revert back to his security blanket. He'll do what he thinks he needs to in an attempt to win over his new team, at first. For how long Depends on whether they're winning enough or not. It could be anywhere from a few games to the better part of year 1 I'll guess
 

JayhawkMike

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Oh and just want to add hating on Motley Crue is not ok :) Saw them in the late 80s on their Girls Girls Girls tour. It was great.
 

BASF

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I swear some of you have never watched college football in your lives. Russell Wilson has been throwing the same things constantly since NC State:



Same tendencies, same routes, same great results at Wisconsin:



So, Wilson has been doing the same things for fifteen years now. He was figured out. That is the way it works in football. You can not keep going to the same well for too long or you get figured out. Defenses and father time have caught up to his play.
 
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Hyak

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The idea that Carroll wasn't allowing Wilson to use the middle of the field or check down is ridiculous. We already saw Smith doing those things in the games he played in so it wasn't the offensive play calling.

And if Wilson does do those things in Denver, it's more telling about how stubborn he was in the last few years than some indictment of Carroll. It would be a case of won't, not can't. BTW I suspect Wilson will be more amenable to doing these things in Denver since he's playing for a new contract and isn't in the "Let Russ Cook" battle with Carroll.
 

BASF

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The idea that Carroll wasn't allowing Wilson to use the middle of the field or check down is ridiculous. We already saw Smith doing those things in the games he played in so it wasn't the offensive play calling.
It is possible that Carroll had Wilson be cautious on said plays. There are probably few left here that remember our conversations back in 2011 regarding how we were not calling plays for Tarvaris Jackson (RIP) to throw short or intermediate routes to his left. There were several of us pointing out that many of his interceptions in Minnesota were on those routes. It is possible that Carroll had Jackson throwing to the middle and right to avoid those interceptions. Jackson still had a very poor INT/TD ratio which is why we moved on from him.
 

JayhawkMike

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"Hey Russ, remember when you threw to the middle of the field and lost us a damn Super Bowl? Don't do that ever again"
 

TwistedHusky

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BASF,

Are you legit arguing that because Wilson played a certain way in college - this somehow clearly makes the case that Carroll is not the driver of this ridiculous 'explosive plays' focus or that it indicates Wilson is unable to produce outside of that box?

Lets review:

Carroll and his team are scouting for players that fit their preferences in play. Carroll has already demonstrated a predilection towards explosive plays. He finds a play that is exceptional at same...and shocking drafts him.

As explosive plays are a focus, per Carroll's own words, it is likely that a good percentage of practice time is used perfecting them. Probably not a crazy coincidence that Wilson got very good at that kind of play - as did his receivers.
(we know they devote a good % to scramble/breakdown plays)

Did Wilson fail to develop in those other areas because of the above focus? Likely. Is that an indication that he was incapable? 2015/2016 seems to argue otherwise (not sure the year he played injured).

10 years of playing a certain way will be difficult for Wilson to overcome. Perhaps almost impossible. But to argue Carroll couldn't be the genesis of the problem because Wilson played a certain way in college seems to ignore a lot of how scouting, practice, and player development works.

Wilson is full of himself, likely a piece of work. No argument. And it is easy to dislike him because of that and want to blame him. But this was all Carroll just trying to figure out how to make it work with such a flawed QB? Unlikely.
 

scutterhawk

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The offense can work with Geno or Lock working the middle of the field + running game and some play action sprinkled in. Geno is the more accurate passer downfield and actually underrated in that regard compared to other NFL QBs last season. Lock obviously has the arm but must improve his footwork to be more accurate downfield.

Also, I am not sure why people feel the Seahawks lack talent (eg offense) because Aaron Rodgers would light it up with Fant, Locket and Metcalf.

The Seahawks had enough talent to be a .500 ball club last season. The problem last season was the defense lost its edge to create turnovers while the offense couldn't sustain drives. The Seahwks added more talent this off season but they are not a bottom dweller based on talent. They are not the Lions for example. If Wilson can not guide an average roster anymore to the playoffs and needs more talent at his age realistically that is fine. But saying the team will crater without Wilson isn't realistic either IMO.
EXCELLENT ^
I think it's ludicrous to keep heaping childish crap on Pete Carroll for Russell Wilsons shortcomings.
Reflecting on last season where Russ came back WAY TOO FAST with an injury to HIS THROWING HAND, & people were chastising on Pete for allowing him to do so, I have to ask...Which of these two were trying to PROVE themselves, and which of these two was giving the other a chance to do so?
I mean do people actually believe Pete has been setting up his friend & star Quarterback to FAIL????
It's not "Rocket Science" A GOOD RUN GAME >HELPS< ANY & EVERY QUARTERBACK!
It actually came down to Praising Wilson for eking out all the Wins, and Crapping on Pete for all the Losses LOLOLOLOLOLOL
You are Right though Scout, it might be easier to win when you have a Top Gun QB, but there are TEAMS who've won it all with a great Defense & a TRY HARDER QB.
 

BASF

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Not even bothering to quote that wall of text. Smith last year used the middle of the field with Carroll coaching. Jackson and Hasselbeck used the middle of the field with Carroll coaching. Palmer, Leinart, Sanchez and even Booty used the middle of the field when Carroll coached USC. The outlier is Russell Wilson.
 

TwistedHusky

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I suppose we will see then BASF.

The likely outcome is that Wilson continues to succeed somewhere else, whereas Carroll fails to achieve anything of worth or note after Wilson's departure. Which makes a good case that anything he achieved of worth or note in the NFL depended on Wilson - since he accomplished nothing in the NFL before him.

But only actually allowing the games to play out will settle the argument. It will just be circular stuff like this until then. Because again, Wilson is somewhere else now and has a chance to do those things everyone seems convinced he cannot. And Carroll now has the chance to prove he was not just riding Wilson's coattails and would have otherwise been a barely .500 coach without him.

We will see.
 

scutterhawk

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BASF,

Are you legit arguing that because Wilson played a certain way in college - this somehow clearly makes the case that Carroll is not the driver of this ridiculous 'explosive plays' focus or that it indicates Wilson is unable to produce outside of that box?

Lets review:

Carroll and his team are scouting for players that fit their preferences in play. Carroll has already demonstrated a predilection towards explosive plays. He finds a play that is exceptional at same...and shocking drafts him.

As explosive plays are a focus, per Carroll's own words, it is likely that a good percentage of practice time is used perfecting them. Probably not a crazy coincidence that Wilson got very good at that kind of play - as did his receivers.
(we know they devote a good % to scramble/breakdown plays)

Did Wilson fail to develop in those other areas because of the above focus? Likely. Is that an indication that he was incapable? 2015/2016 seems to argue otherwise (not sure the year he played injured).

10 years of playing a certain way will be difficult for Wilson to overcome. Perhaps almost impossible. But to argue Carroll couldn't be the genesis of the problem because Wilson played a certain way in college seems to ignore a lot of how scouting, practice, and player development works.

Wilson is full of himself, likely a piece of work. No argument. And it is easy to dislike him because of that and want to blame him. But this was all Carroll just trying to figure out how to make it work with such a flawed QB? Unlikely.
Yeah, let's "Review", D'ya Think that Pete MAYBE likes the " Big Explosive Plays" from Wilson because MAYBE that's when he's AT HIS BEST????????
Ever hear of the term "ONE TRICK PONY"? Or how about "MULTI FACETED" ?
Pete has been TRYING to find another ground pounder like Marshawn Lynch TO >HELP< WILSON.
I DON'T DISLIKE WILSON, I'll say that again, I DO NOT DISLIKE RUSSELL WILSON, but I do dislike sluffing the blame off on someone else for THEIR shortcomings.
Pete's "RUN GAME" actually ENHANCES THE PLAY of a Quarterback like Wilson.
Genisis LOLOL Seriously?
 

keasley45

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Not even bothering to quote that wall of text. Smith last year used the middle of the field with Carroll coaching. Jackson and Hasselbeck used the middle of the field with Carroll coaching. Palmer, Leinart, Sanchez and even Booty used the middle of the field when Carroll coached USC. The outlier is Russell Wilson.
Yup.

I was listening to Robert Turbin's segment on NFL satellite radio and they were discussing Wilson and the fact that Denver gave up their star TE in the trade, a player you'd think would be key for Wilson coming to a new team. The host asked Turbo why Russ never really clicked with any TEs he had, with the exception of Miller, and Turbo summed it up by basically saying that Russ prefers the long ball and doesn't throw to the area of the field the TE s typically use... the middle. It's who he is.

Does Seattle run a system that relies more on the run than the pass and is more risk averse when it comes to turning thr ball over in general? Yes. But just because you play that style of ball DOESNT MEAN YOU GIVE UP 1/3RD OF YOUR PLAYS OR YOUR PLAYBOOK, especially when they are working, in-game and could make you more efficient at moving the chains.

It's crazytalk, and even beyond that when you take the time to go back and watch the tape and see just how many plays were viable, but abandoned because of no other reason BUT RW choosing to do so.
 

BASF

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Wilson is somewhere else now and has a chance to do those things everyone seems convinced he cannot.
It is not a matter of can not. There are not that many here who believe he can not do it (I can think of five of them who have been vocal about his height keeping him from doing it). It is a matter of him wanting to hit those outside the hash passes that he has for fifteen years (not just his ten in the pros) and not taking the short intermediate routes that are open.
 

hoxrox

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the thing is though 2015 proved he can. and he had an incredible year. So logically speaking why would a QB want to change anything when you played that well? You would not more than likely though you would change if the HC wanted it Given we know PC wants to run the ball and take shots for chunk plays the odds are very good it was a PC thing.

2015 seems like ages ago, doesn’t it? But do you really know why that offense was so good?

Warning: heads may explode.

Credit goes to Pete Carroll’s balanced approach to the offense.

That 2015 offense was ranked 3rd in the NFL with 135 rushing yards per game. Rawls had a very good year. This balanced attack on offense helped Russell put up the stats he did that year. The running game + short passing game moved the chains. More first downs = more opportunities to score.

Fast forward to 2020-2021, when chef Russ was needed to carry the team, minus a respectable running game? Burned meals, constant 3-and-outs, stalled drives...

The NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" league. RW? Not much.

Could things change for him in Denver? If Hackett installs a balanced offense like he did with Rodgers, and Russ is not looking to be the hero, then yes it is possible.
 

BASF

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I suppose we will see then BASF.

The likely outcome is that Wilson continues to succeed somewhere else, whereas Carroll fails to achieve anything of worth or note after Wilson's departure. Which makes a good case that anything he achieved of worth or note in the NFL depended on Wilson - since he accomplished nothing in the NFL before him.

But only actually allowing the games to play out will settle the argument. It will just be circular stuff like this until then. Because again, Wilson is somewhere else now and has a chance to do those things everyone seems convinced he cannot. And Carroll now has the chance to prove he was not just riding Wilson's coattails and would have otherwise been a barely .500 coach without him.

We will see.
This is low hanging fruit though. Carroll is, as you enjoy pointing out, older for a head coach. He may retire in the next few years and Wilson plans on playing for another ten years.
 

John63

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2015 seems like ages ago, doesn’t it? But do you really know why that offense was so good?

Warning: heads may explode.

Credit goes to Pete Carroll’s balanced approach to the offense.

That 2015 offense was ranked 3rd in the NFL with 135 rushing yards per game. Rawls had a very good year. This balanced attack on offense helped Russell put up the stats he did that year. The running game + short passing game moved the chains. More first downs = more opportunities to score.

Fast forward to 2020-2021, when chef Russ was needed to carry the team, minus a respectable running game? Burned meals, constant 3-and-outs, stalled drives...

The NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" league. RW? Not much.

Could things change for him in Denver? If Hackett installs a balanced offense like he did with Rodgers, and Russ is not looking to be the hero, then yes it is possible.
Opinions vary yours is one, mine is another. the reality we may never know
 
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keasley45

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BASF,

Are you legit arguing that because Wilson played a certain way in college - this somehow clearly makes the case that Carroll is not the driver of this ridiculous 'explosive plays' focus or that it indicates Wilson is unable to produce outside of that box?

Lets review:

Carroll and his team are scouting for players that fit their preferences in play. Carroll has already demonstrated a predilection towards explosive plays. He finds a play that is exceptional at same...and shocking drafts him.

As explosive plays are a focus, per Carroll's own words, it is likely that a good percentage of practice time is used perfecting them. Probably not a crazy coincidence that Wilson got very good at that kind of play - as did his receivers.
(we know they devote a good % to scramble/breakdown plays)

Did Wilson fail to develop in those other areas because of the above focus? Likely. Is that an indication that he was incapable? 2015/2016 seems to argue otherwise (not sure the year he played injured).

10 years of playing a certain way will be difficult for Wilson to overcome. Perhaps almost impossible. But to argue Carroll couldn't be the genesis of the problem because Wilson played a certain way in college seems to ignore a lot of how scouting, practice, and player development works.

Wilson is full of himself, likely a piece of work. No argument. And it is easy to dislike him because of that and want to blame him. But this was all Carroll just trying to figure out how to make it work with such a flawed QB? Unlikely.
That last part of what you wrote where you question Carrols role in masking Russ's flaws... what Carroll did with Russ is exactly what the Broncos are going to have to do for him.

Carroll is famous for finding players that don't fit a certain metric, and installing them into a complimentary style of play that masks their weaknesses and amplifies their strengths. ITS literally, outside of the compete mantra, what he and this franchise are known for. So to look at Russ and think Carrol would do otherwise or that his ability to maximize a players attributes isn't a major factor... what Russel did well was just enough of what Pete needed that for years, he was able to build a winner around him.

Russ is who he has always been. PC said - I can work with what you do well... we can win with what you can do well. Don't turn the ball over, use your elusiveness and we will run the ball to help you and get you as many chances as possible with our defense.

When we couldn't or wouldn't run, and the defense couldn't get the ball back to an offense that was NEVER good at sustaining drives through the air... welcome to the 2017 - 2021 Hawks.

Russ had 3 coordinators to help him become a better xs and os QB. Each time one was brought in, it was to open up the offense. Schotty produced as much as he could with him... until Russ couldn't solve the looks he was seeing.

Waldron had the playbook, and Russ flat ignored it and did the same thing he always did.

Pete worked with Russ. So did every coordinator tasked with elevating the passing game. Russ just didn't develop.
 

John63

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I suppose we will see then BASF.

The likely outcome is that Wilson continues to succeed somewhere else, whereas Carroll fails to achieve anything of worth or note after Wilson's departure. Which makes a good case that anything he achieved of worth or note in the NFL depended on Wilson - since he accomplished nothing in the NFL before him.

But only actually allowing the games to play out will settle the argument. It will just be circular stuff like this until then. Because again, Wilson is somewhere else now and has a chance to do those things everyone seems convinced he cannot. And Carroll now has the chance to prove he was not just riding Wilson's coattails and would have otherwise been a barely .500 coach without him.

We will see.
THIS^^^^^
 

hoxrox

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I suppose we will see then BASF.

The likely outcome is that Wilson continues to succeed somewhere else, whereas Carroll fails to achieve anything of worth or note after Wilson's departure. Which makes a good case that anything he achieved of worth or note in the NFL depended on Wilson - since he accomplished nothing in the NFL before him.

But only actually allowing the games to play out will settle the argument. It will just be circular stuff like this until then. Because again, Wilson is somewhere else now and has a chance to do those things everyone seems convinced he cannot. And Carroll now has the chance to prove he was not just riding Wilson's coattails and would have otherwise been a barely .500 coach without him.

We will see.
The pre-Wilson Carroll years as some sort of indictment is disingenuous. Clear rebuild years before a roster could develop and reach its full potential was clearly a rebuild.

Nevertheless, that 7-9 team gave us one of the best moments in NFL history.
 
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