Ringer article on Seahawks Offense

TwistedHusky

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HoxRox,

Is there any circumstance where an aging HC with no QB doesn't get us stuck in mediocrity as well?

Especially when that aging HC was only really good at player development and defense...and no longer is above average (or even palatable) at either?
At least a HOF will win you games. What does a barely capable HC win you WITHOUT a QB?
 

keasley45

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Not HoxRox, but the PC v RW debate is one of the chicken and the egg. Some think PC would have been nothing without Russ. Others, the opposite. I personally don't see how one can draw the conclusion that we have a mediocre coach when there is now a mountain of evidence that the mediocrity we've experienced over the last few years has been due in large part to a HC committed to a QB who'd made the most of his abilities, but reached his ceiling. Pete came here and immediately made us competitive. And if the last few years are any indication of the xs and os limitations Russ presented, he managed to build a world class defense, and structure an offense around an unorthodox qb to reach the pinnacle of success. That's not to say Russ isn't brilliant at what he does. But it's what HE does. Not a predictable offense or one capable of growing. And PC oversaw a run of success that was remarkable regardless of that fact.

One could easily make the argument that had PC had a QB capable of consistently moving the chains and staying on schedule within the scheme and playcall, we'd have been more successful than we've been.

Chicken or egg - how good we might have been and ultimately who the mastermind really was behind the Hawks success between 2010 and 2021 will begin to reveal itself in about 15 weeks.

Pete hasn't been perfect. he was slow to adapt his defense and too loyal and accommodating of his star pupils, but in my opinion, a mediocre coach he is not.

But like I said. My hope is that the many who wanted to run PC out of town will be happy we kept him.
 

John63

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He’s polarizing figure in Seattle sports lore, and people want to talk about why it didn’t fit. Simply saying it’s Pete fault or Russ’ fault is amateur and simplistic at best.
then people need to get a life. we will find out this year which it was.
 

Frozenropers1

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Well Motley Crue sucked.

But I have to imagine that is the only reason someone would go watch them now.

Not worried about my lost youth. It is our rapidly aging, increasingly losing effectiveness and barely competent HC that I am worried about.

It is bad enough to have an average or below average QB. But to have a barely there HC where he cannot even do the things anymore he used to be good at and still struggles with the things he was never good at?

Not a great sign for the future.

So the only reason to even keep him is to remember when he was capable and competent.

On the bright side, going to games is going to be so much easier. If you ever wanted to see a star on the other team live - and never had good enough seats? It will be so much easier to get better seats, better parking, etc.
I would be more worried about our “barely there” HC if we was stuck in the same way of thinking and wasn’t open to change. Considering Pete hired a new DC (I love prior DLine coaches as new DCs) and brought in Desai to help with converting to a true 3-4 scheme on defense.

In addition, last year he went with a young new OC from a system that was kicking our tails.

I have confidence that at least Pete recognized change was needed and he is going with schemes and coaches that aren’t just old retreads to spew his old philosophy.
 

scutterhawk

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I have a life, which includes coming here to .NET & discussing all things *Seahawks*.
I've spent MORE TIME defending Wilson, than anyone else on the Team or Coaching staff for that matter.
It's when I see people dogpiling on Pete Carroll after his having made EXTRAORDINARY EXCEPTIONS where Wilson was concerned, AND HE MOST CERTAINLY DID, in fact, sometimes to the point of p*ssing off some of the other players, many who have quit the Seahawks & went elsewhere to play.
Also, he's canned Bevell, Schotts & brought in Waldren FOR WILSON, now at some point, it all comes back to one person >WILSON<who just can't seem to get on the same page, so I guess the next reach, is to lay it all on Carroll? NOPE.
It's already been stated that Pete Carroll has made some mistakes, and on that I don't disagree, but Russell Wilson too, > has his own share of mistakes< on this whole matter.
 

Throwdown

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Getting? Has been for at least a few years.

Lol I just don’t understand why it can’t be discussed. Why is it a black and white issue for some? Maybe the marriage just didn’t work for both anymore. Maybe Russ sees a RB in Williams that can help loosen a defense for him to take the shots he so dearly loves? And Pete can finally bring back the environment he loves and thrives in, tough, hard nosed, punch em in the mouth and spit on their moms football, he gets his philosophy back and hopefully a QB that he can be comfortable with again.

Tbh I don’t think Pete wanted to let him go, I think Pete thought he could work it out.
 

BASF

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Lol I just don’t understand why it can’t be discussed. Why is it a black and white issue for some? Maybe the marriage just didn’t work for both anymore. Maybe Russ sees a RB in Williams that can help loosen a defense for him to take the shots he so dearly loves? And Pete can finally bring back the environment he loves and thrives in, tough, hard nosed, punch em in the mouth and spit on their moms football, he gets his philosophy back and hopefully a QB that he can be comfortable with again.

Tbh I don’t think Pete wanted to let him go, I think Pete thought he could work it out.
I honestly thought you meant anything that John posts.
 

AgentDib

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My take is slightly different; at the end of the day it was the money that mattered.

The previous negotiations were difficult and the upcoming ones were set to be significantly worse. Russ has a ton of self confidence, wants to make as much money as possible, and has an agent willing to fight for every penny. There's no way that his camp will be accepting less than the $230 million guaranteed that Watson just received and they're going to try to surpass it by as much as possible.

His camp also knows that the FO doesn't value him quite that highly, which is why he's been pushing for a trade behind the scenes. Russ's camp was unhappy about the Hawks scouting Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes because they felt even then that the Hawks had mixed feelings about his production vs. his high salary.

Meanwhile, Denver has been doing poorly and loading up on cheap rookie contracts. They can afford to overpay Russ and are locked into doing so after giving up multiple first round picks for him. The greener grass in Denver is money.
 

jeremiah

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Once age caught up with Russ, so did opposing team's defensive schemes. I don't think it will take other teams long to similarly figure him out in Denver. He might get them to the playoffs, but I don't see how his issues here will magically solve themselves in Denver, especially as he continues to age. Father time is undefeated.
Wilsons wheels have fallen off. Without the threat of him breaking the pocket and running for first downs, he is not special...at least to my eyes. He just went from very very good, to good in about 3 seasons. It happens, a really fast QB from Atlanta was lights out in Philly..... won't name him.... wheels off, less than average in a few years. McNabb was the same, as the Minnesota QB who tore his knee up and went from the Pro Bowl, to the Orange Bowl to coaching in three years.
 

GemCity

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As a RW fanboi, I’ve been in several disagreements with others when it came to Russ. I’d turn a blind eye as comments about his character, wife, “brand” etc. were mixed in with the negative comments.

I’ve always noticed the lack of check downs and passes up the middle but attributed that to the o-coordinator and/or PC.

This article made a lot of sense to me (especially the heatmaps). While I still think he’ll do well in Denver’s offense, PC and JS made the best move by trading him.

Thanks for sharing.
 

scutterhawk

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Lol I just don’t understand why it can’t be discussed. Why is it a black and white issue for some? Maybe the marriage just didn’t work for both anymore. Maybe Russ sees a RB in Williams that can help loosen a defense for him to take the shots he so dearly loves? And Pete can finally bring back the environment he loves and thrives in, tough, hard nosed, punch em in the mouth and spit on their moms football, he gets his philosophy back and hopefully a QB that he can be comfortable with again.

Tbh I don’t think Pete wanted to let him go, I think Pete thought he could work it out.
I think that in the beginning of the 2021 campaign that having gone out & gotten Shane Waldren, that both Pete & John MAYBE thought that he would be the change of pace OC that would bring Wilson back to happy, but after a few games in, I got the vibe that Wilson was still going to do Wilson Football, Waldren be damned.
I think Pete Carroll at that point had realized that no matter what he did, Wilson was still bent on getting the hell out of Seattle.
Russell Wilson is a "System Quarterback"---A Russell Wilson "System"
This old "I want to be a Hawk for life" was 'Good Ol Boy' lip service...A Fresh Start & EGO BOOSTING MONEY MARKET in Denver was a dream come true.
Pete & John & Jody absolutely did do the right thing by the Seahawks organization.
 

Throwdown

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I think that in the beginning of the 2021 campaign that having gone out & gotten Shane Waldren, that both Pete & John MAYBE thought that he would be the change of pace OC that would bring Wilson back to happy, but after a few games in, I got the vibe that Wilson was still going to do Wilson Football, Waldren be damned.
I think Pete Carroll at that point had realized that no matter what he did, Wilson was still bent on getting the hell out of Seattle.
Russell Wilson is a "System Quarterback"---A Russell Wilson "System"
This old "I want to be a Hawk for life" was 'Good Ol Boy' lip service...A Fresh Start & EGO BOOSTING MONEY MARKET in Denver was a dream come true.
Pete & John & Jody absolutely did do the right thing by the Seahawks organization.

I agree. Russ had this thing where he tried to not be the villain hence the weird description of the “list”. I think somewhere along the lines of communication in his last contract dealings feelings got hurt and JS was absolutely done with Mark Rodgers as well. Pete wanted Russ to play within a structure, Russ cannot do that for whatever reason, at some point you gotta give up and let him do Russ things for a team that thinks they can harness it for more than 1/2 a season
 

sdog1981

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then people need to get a life. we will find out this year which it was.
At this point the account is either run by a member of Wilson's family or a "for pay" social media account promoting Wilson. In both instances they should just be placed on ignore.
 

John63

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At this point the account is either run by a member of Wilson's family or a "for pay" social media account promoting Wilson. In both instances they should just be placed on ignore.
OKay I will place you on ignore no problem
 

sc85sis

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At this point the account is either run by a member of Wilson's family or a "for pay" social media account promoting Wilson. In both instances they should just be placed on ignore.
Good advice that I’ve just taken.

I’m one of the biggest Pete Carroll homers here, and even I can admit Pete makes mistakes just like every other human being on the planet.

The idea that Russell is somehow beyond reproach is silly. He’s a great QB in many ways. We’ve been damned lucky to have him. But his game does have flaws that he has so far seemed unwilling or unable to address.
 

HawkRiderFan

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Well if Russ suddenly starts taking checkdowns, throwing across the middle and throwing on time, we will know that it was all on coaching and offensive philosophy here. If we see the same stuff as here then we will know it's on him. Even with "the same Russ" he and the Denver offence will still put up good numbers like he did in Seattle.
 

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