Pete Carrol's contribution

[uncle fester]

I think that pre-game doink on the head had after effects.

 

[NJlargent]

We will stay 9-7 and early exit under Carroll until RW can’t play. Then we will be 5-11.

 

[justafan]

A lot of people are high on Payton,I get it he is a good coach. Even when he was having one of his many 7-9 seasons he was still good.His teams sucked and played like shit but he was still a good coach. Im sure many forum poster wanted his head because playcalling sucked,the game passed him by and all the rest of the garbage that a losing team gets.

I am sure every team has a forum with vocal minority that wants them fired at the first sign of adversity,knows more about football,better at playcalls, says the game passed them by or says the team quit on the coach. I have seen Patriot fans saying a lot of the same things people here are saying.

I wouldnt trade Pete for any coach in the league.

 

[Jville]

It's nonsense.

It makes no sense to imply that a teams principle architect is merely a contributing participant. That the program's author is nothing more than a character within his own evolving creation.

 

[Tical21]

I’ve been here since Russ’ rookie year. Seen a lot of posts, many have been pretty bad. This is IMO, by far, the worst, and may constitute a permanent ban.

 

[xray]

Since Carroll runs the team from stem to stern ; there is nobody to tell him to stay the hell away from the offense during games . The score doesn't show how bad the game really was . Wilson by himself made the score looked respectable .

 

[Tusc2000]

Really, the only thing that I think Pete did wrong today, and it was a big gaffe, was that at the end of the half when Wilson did not call a time out on the field, he should have called one.

Not so much.

Going for it on 4th and 1 at midfield with 2:37 left in the half gave the Saints an easy TD and put them up by 2 scores..

Kicking an extra point instead of going for 2 when the score was 33-20, would have made tying the game possible with another TD and a FG.

Not even attempting an onside kick prevented us from having any shot at winning, remote as the chance might have been.

Pete had a bad day all around. It happens.

 

[CPHawk]

Really, the only thing that I think Pete did wrong today, and it was a big gaffe, was that at the end of the half when Wilson did not call a time out on the field, he should have called one.

Not so much.

Going for it on 4th and 1 at midfield with 2:37 left in the half gave the Saints an easy TD and put them up by 2 scores..

Kicking an extra point instead of going for 2 when the score was 33-20, would have made tying the game possible with another TD and a FG.

Not even attempting an onside kick prevented us from having any shot at winning, remote as the chance might have been.

Pete had a bad day all around. It happens.

Should have also taken the easy 3 pts instead of going for it on 4th down, when Russ over the Locket. 3 there, and who know what happens

 

[ducks41468]

At this point we just have to take the good with the bad. We're going to consistently play down to our opponents, no matter how bad or shorthanded they are. We're going to have multiple completely bewildering losses ever season (We'll almost certainly lose to Arizona this year). We'll continue playing hyper conservative in every game until we fall so far behind that we'll optically have no other choice than to play more aggressively. We'll probably still go 10-6, then go out with a whimper in the playoffs due to the aforementioned point. Same thing next year and as long as Russ is here.

 

[John63]

At this point we just have to take the good with the bad. We're going to consistently play down to our opponents, no matter how bad or shorthanded they are. We're going to have multiple completely bewildering losses ever season (We'll almost certainly lose to Arizona this year). We'll continue playing hyper conservative in every game until we fall so far behind that we'll optically have no other choice than to play more aggressively. We'll probably still go 10-6, then go out with a whimper in the playoffs due to the aforementioned point. Same thing next year and as long as Russ is here.

ahh so are you saying this is Wilsons fault?

 

[ducks41468]

At this point we just have to take the good with the bad. We're going to consistently play down to our opponents, no matter how bad or shorthanded they are. We're going to have multiple completely bewildering losses ever season (We'll almost certainly lose to Arizona this year). We'll continue playing hyper conservative in every game until we fall so far behind that we'll optically have no other choice than to play more aggressively. We'll probably still go 10-6, then go out with a whimper in the playoffs due to the aforementioned point. Same thing next year and as long as Russ is here.

ahh so are you saying this is Wilsons fault?

No, quite the opposite. With Wilson our floor is basically 8 wins so we can sleepwalk through half the season like we typically do and still get to 9-10 wins

 

[SNDavidson]

Hawks and Saints both played Pete ball, saints out Pete-balled the Hawks. This would concern me much more if it was week 8+, the silver lining here is the wake-up call factor - in the next 2-3 weeks I think we're going to start to see who we can be, then Reed comes back. If they get through at 4-2 and find themselves and some self-belief in the process they'll be there at the end of the year.

At least we have a team that cares, we DO have talent, we're playing young and over pursuing, in the position to make a play but don't, etc. (Keep Tedric a backup). The eye test and laws of the universe say we should have more picks and less cheap fumbles this year, this week will be all about "the small things" we're tripping over and these young athletes will have an opportunity take ownership of it. For instance, without knowing the guy, from the outside looking in, I think C.Carson is the type that will put in the extra work to fix his fumbles sooner than later.

If this happens we've got a real shot, it's about the youth claiming this team and holding everyone to a higher standard.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

All this talk of scheme and philosophy is missing the point.

We went to Super Bowls because we oozed TALENT. Wilson, Lynch, sorely underrated WR's, and seven Pro Bowlers on defense. Any team with that kind of ridiculous talent quotient will be top four in the league. We just got beaten by such a team.

Ever since this 9/10 roster left town, our talent quotient at any given moment has been more like 7/10. What can we hang our hat on right now in terms of bright stars who will stick around for a while?

Well, Wilson, of course. On offense - Lockett, Metcalf, Carson, .6 of an OL for a few years.

On defense - um? Wagner, Wright, Clowney. As of now, that's pretty much where the sterling talent ends.

We've got so many 9-7 players that we've forgotten what 13-3 players look like.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Pete's contribution as a coach has almost always been Monday through Saturday.

He identifies greatness, cultivates it, and gameplans using it (if on defense). But he has never been a great gameday guy. Ever. Even at USC.

His thing has been to put together ways of playing that leverage the strengths the talent he has. And he has been adept at bringing in and developing talent that was overlooked because it did not fit the current football checklist. It was always a form of football arbitrage. But the game itself was still predicated on 'out-athleting' the other team.

Still, if the gameplan falls apart on gameday - usually so does the game. We don't generally look to hide what we are doing, exploit matchups, or even take tactical advantages when they present themselves. We go in with a plan and philosophy, rarely veering from it. We then rely on our ability to be good at that one thing enough to offset that the other team knows we will do it. And we dare them to stop it and will ourselves to victory.

Sometimes I think it is an ego thing. But regardless, it led to a lot of winning for years here. It just has an issue in that it depends on having better athletes than the other team for it to work. The good part is our system was very good at developing and enabling those better athletes.

We just don't have them on defense anymore. Pete has not accepted that yet.

 

[chris98251]

Well is Jim Mora still unemployed??????

:stirthepot:

 

[Spin Doctor]

Well is Jim Mora still unemployed??????

:stirthepot:

I heard Knapp is still unemployed too. Between Solari, Mora, and Knapp we could bring back the old gang. Unfortunately Gus Bradley is on the Chargers.

Everyone on the offensive line gets the obligatory dirt bag hat.

 

[Sports Hernia]

All this talk of scheme and philosophy is missing the point.

We went to Super Bowls because we oozed TALENT. Wilson, Lynch, sorely underrated WR's, and seven Pro Bowlers on defense. Any team with that kind of ridiculous talent quotient will be top four in the league. We just got beaten by such a team.

Ever since this 9/10 roster left town, our talent quotient at any given moment has been more like 7/10. What can we hang our hat on right now in terms of bright stars who will stick around for a while?

Well, Wilson, of course. On offense - Lockett, Metcalf, Carson, .6 of an OL for a few years.

On defense - um? Wagner, Wright, Clowney. As of now, that's pretty much where the sterling talent ends.

We've got so many 9-7 players that we've forgotten what 13-3 players look like.

Agree.

 

[xray]

The only undisputable fact is that Pete Carrol has presided over the best run in Seahawk history. His contribution to that result is very much up for interpretation.

the 2012 and 2013 drafts and UDFA signing produced a cadre of talent that would be difficult to duplicate. The 2013 & 2014 Defenses were generationally unique. Combined with a young QB who had skills will beyond what the NFL had seen in a while, the team as a whole was able to play a style football that proved difficult to compete with.

Undoubtedly Pete Carrol had something to do with assembling that group of talent. The schemes that he oversaw were in harmony with that talent and the team excelled, playing in back to back super bowls.

All that said, it has become obvious to me that the success the team has had since that last superbowl has primarily been due to Russ's ability to will the team to wins that seemed improbable. The Offensive and Defensive schemes have not evolved to keep pace with the changing talent level or other teams adapting to what the hawks were doing.

Todays game was emblematic. Many of the explosive plays and other positive yardage plays occur not on the designed playcall, but rather when things break down and Russ somehow makes something happen. The defensive scheme of keeping everything in front doesn't work when the talent is what it is. It is rare to see a pass broken up or a big hit separating player and ball. Missed tackles by corners and safeties allow too many Yards After Catch.

Yet game after game there doesn't appear to be an adjustment to the style of play. I will say that there has been an effort to call plays that have Russ getting rid of the ball early however the plays are ineffective. Throwing the ball out to the WR along the LOS with out blockers is not a great play design.

With out droning on, In my opinion, the game is passing Pete by. I am not too concerned about who comes in next. I know JS can find a highly qualified candidate and as long as Russ is the QB the Hawks will have a chance. A top tier QB is a much rarer commodity than a good HC. QB's make HC's look good! I doubt PC is on the hot seat but I feel that unless he changes his ways the Hawks will be stuck in this early playoff round exit limbo. And the only reason they are that good is due to Russel Wilson's uncanny ability to make something from nothing.

You do realize that Pete is John Schneider's boss right?

Most don't know that Carroll hired Schneider...Carroll runs the show top to bottom .

 

[olyfan63]

OP, did you watch the game today, really watch?

Game is passing him by? Horsepucky! To me your post is butt sore hyperbole.

Critical errors, fumbles, penalties, and a failure to execute and complete drives is what undid the team today. Nothing the coaches did except trying hard to force a change of momentum caused the L. You could argue the numerous 4th down fails certainly encouraged the Saints, in each case the conversion were possible. The team controlled the TOP 31:33 to the Saints 28:27, 404 yards passing and 515 total yards to half that by the Saints. They ran out of time but were coming back from a > 3 score hole dug by those mistakes, errors, and fumbles. Simply they just got behind and never could catch up. None of onfield mistakes were made by Pete.

It was an ugly L. Stuff happens! Now they are 2-1, and have had net 1 point more scored against them than they have scored in 3 games. In the end they lost the game rather than winning it, which sounds obvious but is a matter of mindset. I was disappointed too.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401127993
https://nflcdns.nfl.com/liveupdate/game ... mebook.pdf

Last game and the game prior the complainers were bemoaning the run, run, pass supposed mindset. Today, the O couldn't seal the deal more than once at critical moments still winding up with 515 yards. I fail to see how that was on Pete, please advise. The team failed to finish and Pete is big on that, the team let him down. This loss will hurt at the end of the season.

I think the game has passed him by. I don't think he is a bad HC by any means but I think we're going to be stuck in 9-7, and 10-6 territory with a quick exit from the playoffs under Pete. He has peaked and his best years are behind him.

When Pete Carroll came into the NFL he had a unique idea of how he wanted his defense ran. He put a premium on players that most teams would have just thrown away or relegated to the depths of the depth chart. Big corners whom people thought wouldn't be able to play coverage due to stiff hips. Bigger SS's that weren't traditionally the best in coverage, smaller undersized pass rushers in a 4-3 being used as stand up pass rushers on occasion. He took an unorthodox approach to building his defense, and assembled a squad that most thought would be doomed to failure.

He changed people's views really quickly when he put that unlikely group of players together and assembled what is likely the best defense in modern football, and certainly the best defense and overall team of the 2010s. He quickly showed the world that his method worked. All of the sudden you saw a run on big cornerbacks and safeties, small QB's like Manziel, Mayfield, and Murray being taken high in the NFL draft, etc. His secret weapon, the method he used to assemble his world beater teams now was a blue print many teams were integrating. His secret talent pool all of the sudden wasn't so secret anymore. He took the league by surprise, but alas they adapted and stole some of his techniques for themselves. Now Pete's style is common knowledge in the NFL. Teams have adapted, integrated and found ways to beat Pete.

Is he still a good coach? Yes. He is great at putting together a program and getting the most out of his players. This is where Pete excels as a coach. The guy is good at talent acquisition and really unlocking the potential that others couldn't in his players. The big picture and program building is his forte.

Unfortunately Pete isn't what I would deem as the best X's and O's guy, and his in game coaching at times can be horrendous. He often times has the tendency to hire the wrong guys for the job and stand-by them for far past their expiration date. His initial game plans are what I consider to be some of the worst that I've seen from an NFL team, and he tends to be stubborn in the face of change. Rather than win games he'd rather win his way. He is fixated on his philosophy to the point of it being a detriment in certain situations.

Carroll's in game coaching is also questionable and has always been. Poor game management, offensive plays that don't fit the situation, weird challenges, and a very slow to adapt style.

Carroll is a coach of extremes. He is probably one of the best program managers and motivators in the NFL. He has a ton of weaknesses but he is very good at the big picture and that is what keeps him as an above average coach in the NFL. It really is a shame, if he got the right people to manage his offense and defense (Schottenheimer and Ken Norton JR are below average) and take a more managerial/backseat role I think that he could have Billicheck levels of success. Instead he hires marionette dolls, and yes men. I doubt we will ever sniff another Super Bowl under Pete again, but it is important to note that he still is an above average coach if nothing else but for his ability to manage a program.

What a great post! Yup, Pete is excellent at so many of the Monday-to-Saturday things, but when he fails on Sunday (defined as an L rather than a W) all his weaknesses are on full display for all to critique, while overlooking his strengths that have led to playoff appearances most years. I would just add that Carroll is also a superbly excellent teacher and coach, from a coaching geek standpoint, of how he organizes practices and the learning environment overall.

Carson got stupid and sloppy this game, between a concentration laps/sloppiness on the fumble returned for a TD, and not being in the right cleats to make cuts. One player not having it together, leads to an L. Maybe Al Woods not making that mental mistake to gift a TD to NO instead of a missed field goal, and the outcome is different. Hell, even his Pro Bowl punter let him down, with the uncharacteristic crappy kick, short and to the wrong side, I gather, that led to the NO punt return TD.

The Hawks played well enough to win, for the most part, absent 3 major player fails. Guaranteed that these player fails, mental mistakes, will be corrected by the coaching staff and players and won't occur again, except a *rare* (in the future) Carson fumble. If it's a W most of the criticisms evaporate, and the game hasn't passed Pete by, and his emphasis on "fundamentals" and "imposing our will" on the opponent suddenly sounds modern and wow he sure is a smart coach for keeping focus on the most essential things.

The failures vs NO are as much on Schotty and Norton and ST coach Brian Schneider for not doing a better in-game job of adjusting, and/or not preparing the team better; but ultimately, reflect on Pete, to ensure he is hiring highly capable, talented coordinators in the first place, and delegating effectively.

 

[strohmin]

Very well written opinion. I agree wholeheartedly. Obviously, Pete's coaching philosophy works very well with young extremely talented players. However, he can not take a good team and make them great. If Pete does not have a dominate defense, his style of play will put the Hawks in a hole or keep poor teams in it. The seahawks can not blow people out because he plays it safe which is maddening with Wilson as the QB.

I think If the Hawks won every game they played this season and played crappy in everyone of those games some of you guys would still be bitching about it... :rumble:

LTH

I mean do you expect a team to win every game by playing crappy? come on man...