Pass to Jimmy Graham

[cymatica]

Isn't Jimmy breaking pass reception records for Seahawks tight ends this season?

I don't think you realize how great Graham is/was w/ NO. We are talking Hall of Fame, yet we use him like just another guy.

"we use him like just another guy"?

Graham LED THE TEAM IN RECEPTIONS yesterday. What if anything would satisfy you?

Sheesh

I was referring to inside the RZ as I alluded to in the first post of mine in this thread. But let's not act like 4 receptions yesterday is some huge accomplishment.

Actually utilizing him as one of/if not the BEST red zone weapon in the NFL would satisfy me. I hate to use him as a scapegoat because I really don't have a problem with him personally, but as an example, sit Kearse in the RZ and have Graham run his routes. I guarantee we will have better success than what we are having now.

We are 2-11 in the red zone over the last two games. This has been the theme for most of the season, we are dreadful down there. We should be on a bye this week. The inefficiency in the RZ is a huge factor in us not getting the 2 seed.

I would prefer not to settle for mediocrity offensively. I'm not calling for people to get fired, I just want our coaching staff to put our best players in situations for them, and the hawks to succeed.

He should switch jerseys with Kearse in the redzone.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

^ thought I read he had 7 catches yesterday, most on the team.

ADB is our real ace in the hole, is the better receiver and is paid appropriately better too. I see no problem with ADB and JG being #1 and #2 in targets, recs and yds - exactly as they are. If JG wishes he had more of the attention, as he like most all players do wish, well maybe he's being unrealistic about just how much he should 'featured' - since he already is being bigly-featured.

 

[Hawks46]

When Russell heaved it up to Jimmy and he blocked the guy out like he was posting him up in basketball, that was beautiful. If Bevell ever figures out that in most cases all you have to do is throw it in Jimmys vicinity , then are a different O. It's so easy to see that its comical. Throw more to Graham!!!!!

You are oversimplistic. Did you see the pass earlier to Jimmy that was easily batted back when he had 1-on-1 coverage? The coaches are doing a job feeding hin the ball in the rhytym of our offense. Sometimes some of you think we get 90 plays on offense a week.

It is an abomination on how we use him inside the RZ. Line him up as a WR like they did in New Orleans and isolate him.

Look at the routes he ran there, as well as a lot of his TDs inside the red zone; fades and quick slants. He is nearly unstoppable. Similar to what he did today with the box out, he did that for 5 years for the Saints in the RZ. No idea why it's such a hard concept for our coaching staff to understand. We are absolutely terrible in the red zone; why we don't emulate what the saints did with him is mind boggling.

I'm not sure how to embed, but quite a few of the TDs are in this video link.....

https://youtu.be/L_74Wu0AXVI

It's honestly depressing watching him in a Saints uniform getting stupidly easy TD"s on basic slant routes, while we struggle to target him 3-4 times a game.

 

[scrummymustard]

Isn't Jimmy breaking pass reception records for Seahawks tight ends this season?

I don't think you realize how great Graham is/was w/ NO. We are talking Hall of Fame, yet we use him like just another guy.

A guy who receives the most offensive snaps aside from Russ and the line. He is being used.
Also, we're not the Saints. Jimmy still is a huge part of this offense (second in receptions), but Baldwin just set a single-season franchise record for receptions, a significant achievement that wouldn't have happened were we force-feeding the ball to Jimmy.

No kidding we aren't the saints. They actually score touchdowns on a consistent basis in the redzone.

Great for Baldwin; he has played awesome all year. That still doesn't address our inefficiency in the red zone.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Isn't Jimmy breaking pass reception records for Seahawks tight ends this season?

I don't think you realize how great Graham is/was w/ NO. We are talking Hall of Fame, yet we use him like just another guy.

A guy who receives the most offensive snaps aside from Russ and the line. He is being used.
Also, we're not the Saints. Jimmy still is a huge part of this offense (second in receptions), but Baldwin just set a single-season franchise record for receptions, a significant achievement that wouldn't have happened were we force-feeding the ball to Jimmy.

No kidding we aren't the saints. They actually score touchdowns on a consistent basis in the redzone.

Great for Baldwin; he has played awesome all year. That still doesn't address our inefficiency in the red zone.

How's Baldwin in the red zone? Perhaps, and I'm just spit-ballin' here, he has a better catch percentage than other players there, and should be targeted more there himself.

 

[RichNhansom]

Isn't Jimmy breaking pass reception records for Seahawks tight ends this season?

I don't think you realize how great Graham is/was w/ NO. We are talking Hall of Fame, yet we use him like just another guy.

A guy who receives the most offensive snaps aside from Russ and the line. He is being used.
Also, we're not the Saints. Jimmy still is a huge part of this offense (second in receptions), but Baldwin just set a single-season franchise record for receptions, a significant achievement that wouldn't have happened were we force-feeding the ball to Jimmy.

No kidding we aren't the saints. They actually score touchdowns on a consistent basis in the redzone.

Great for Baldwin; he has played awesome all year. That still doesn't address our inefficiency in the red zone.

Red zone is more about execution than play call and right now Brees is the better QB with much better pass protection. The guy just went over 5000 yards for the 5th time. It's not a knock on Wilson that he is not producing at Brees levels. To be fair Brees probably would not be either with the protection Wilson is getting.

 

[scrummymustard]

I don't think you realize how great Graham is/was w/ NO. We are talking Hall of Fame, yet we use him like just another guy.

A guy who receives the most offensive snaps aside from Russ and the line. He is being used.
Also, we're not the Saints. Jimmy still is a huge part of this offense (second in receptions), but Baldwin just set a single-season franchise record for receptions, a significant achievement that wouldn't have happened were we force-feeding the ball to Jimmy.

No kidding we aren't the saints. They actually score touchdowns on a consistent basis in the redzone.

Great for Baldwin; he has played awesome all year. That still doesn't address our inefficiency in the red zone.

How's Baldwin in the red zone? Perhaps, and I'm just spit-ballin' here, he has a better catch percentage than other players there, and should be targeted more there himself.

Why are you making this a Graham vs Baldwin debate? They both are great in the RZ, and for different reasons.

Graham is the big body guy who can box out defenders and win jump balls. Even on slants he basically is boxing out defenders bc he is so big and strong for the DB to get around and reach the ball.

Baldwin is a fantastic route runner and extremely quick.

They both can be used more often, but in better ways. Did Graham all of a sudden forget how to catch touchdowns since he got here? Nope.

JG's touchdown rate per game dropped to .3 TDs/game from .65 in NO. We haven't maximized his talent here; there's no other way to say it.

We have great weapons, there is no reason why we should be so terrible in the red zone. Hopefully we get better from here on out; or else we will not be going far into the playoffs.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

How's Baldwin in the red zone? Perhaps, and I'm just spit-ballin' here, he has a better catch percentage than other players there, and should be targeted more there himself.

Why are you making this a Graham vs Baldwin debate? They both are great in the RZ, and for different reasons.

Graham is the big body guy who can box out defenders and win jump balls. Even on slants he basically is boxing out defenders bc he is so big and strong for the DB to get around and reach the ball.

Baldwin is a fantastic route runner and extremely quick.

They both can be used more often, but in better ways. Did Graham all of a sudden forget how to catch touchdowns since he got here? Nope.

JG's touchdown rate per game dropped to .3 TDs/game from .65 in NO. We haven't maximized his talent here; there's no other way to say it.

We have great weapons, there is no reason why we should be so terrible in the red zone. Hopefully we get better from here on out; or else we will not be going far into the playoffs.

I'm not trying to make this a "Graham vs. Baldwin" debate. I'm simply putting it out there because there may be a reason for it. Maybe Jimmy's double covered. Maybe he's forced to block so Wilson might not get killed in the pocket. Maybe Wilson just didn't see him when he was open.

You're entirely right; we haven't maximized Graham's talent here, there's no two ways about it. And we should. But if a lot of that output has shifted to Baldwin, for example, it's not wasted, merely directed elsewhere. That's what I was getting at. And a Baldwin touchdown is worth the same seven points for the Seahawks as a Graham one in the end. Well, provided Hauschka makes the extra point.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

... a Baldwin touchdown is worth the same seven points for the Seahawks as a Graham one in the end.

Yep - As is a TD to anybody else.

The situations where an NFL-quality defender allows JG to simply box him out are great opportunities but are in reality very rare.

More common is to see JG (and other WRs) well-covered - remember the RZ pass to him in the EZ where JG had his hands on the ball and the LB pulled it out from him and very very nearly got the INT (just barely stepped out of bounds) - the play where the Sherminator lost his mind on the sidelines? Pass plays to JG are ~not~ automatic successes, much as we all wish they could be. Other teams have defenders too, the trick is to try find the most-open guy instead of force-feeding anyone and risking INT's in the process.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

^ thought I read he had 7 catches yesterday, most on the team.

My mistake, it was 7 targets and 4 recs, tied with PRich for team-highs. JG's 64 yds also lead the team.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=400874699

 

[scrummymustard]

... a Baldwin touchdown is worth the same seven points for the Seahawks as a Graham one in the end.

Yep - As is a TD to anybody else.

The situations where an NFL-quality defender allows JG to simply box him out are great opportunities but are in reality very rare.

More common is to see JG (and other WRs) well-covered - remember the RZ pass to him in the EZ where JG had his hands on the ball and the LB pulled it out from him and very very nearly got the INT (just barely stepped out of bounds) - the play where the Sherminator lost his mind on the sidelines? Pass plays to JG are ~not~ automatic successes, much as we all wish they could be. Other teams have defenders too, the trick is to try find the most-open guy instead of force-feeding anyone and risking INT's in the process.

Yea I remember it exactly. Graham should have came down with it, but if the pass was better, about a foot higher it was an easy TD. Regardless he should have still caught it.

But I also don't love the play design. Jimmy was in the 3 point stance. I'd prefer if he was motioned outside and not a longer developing route, but irregardless, still should have been a TD.

 

[scrummymustard]

How's Baldwin in the red zone? Perhaps, and I'm just spit-ballin' here, he has a better catch percentage than other players there, and should be targeted more there himself.

Why are you making this a Graham vs Baldwin debate? They both are great in the RZ, and for different reasons.

Graham is the big body guy who can box out defenders and win jump balls. Even on slants he basically is boxing out defenders bc he is so big and strong for the DB to get around and reach the ball.

Baldwin is a fantastic route runner and extremely quick.

They both can be used more often, but in better ways. Did Graham all of a sudden forget how to catch touchdowns since he got here? Nope.

JG's touchdown rate per game dropped to .3 TDs/game from .65 in NO. We haven't maximized his talent here; there's no other way to say it.

We have great weapons, there is no reason why we should be so terrible in the red zone. Hopefully we get better from here on out; or else we will not be going far into the playoffs.

I'm not trying to make this a "Graham vs. Baldwin" debate. I'm simply putting it out there because there may be a reason for it. Maybe Jimmy's double covered. Maybe he's forced to block so Wilson might not get killed in the pocket. Maybe Wilson just didn't see him when he was open.

You're entirely right; we haven't maximized Graham's talent here, there's no two ways about it. And we should. But if a lot of that output has shifted to Baldwin, for example, it's not wasted, merely directed elsewhere. That's what I was getting at. And a Baldwin touchdown is worth the same seven points for the Seahawks as a Graham one in the end. Well, provided Hauschka makes the extra point.

My apologies for putting words in your mouth. I think we are on the same page.

The problem is a lot of the output hasn't fallen on Baldwin; it's fallen on no one. We are 27th in the league in the red zone. Unacceptable when we have two $10+ million a year receivers and RW behind center.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

How's Baldwin in the red zone? Perhaps, and I'm just spit-ballin' here, he has a better catch percentage than other players there, and should be targeted more there himself.

Why are you making this a Graham vs Baldwin debate? They both are great in the RZ, and for different reasons.

Graham is the big body guy who can box out defenders and win jump balls. Even on slants he basically is boxing out defenders bc he is so big and strong for the DB to get around and reach the ball.

Baldwin is a fantastic route runner and extremely quick.

They both can be used more often, but in better ways. Did Graham all of a sudden forget how to catch touchdowns since he got here? Nope.

JG's touchdown rate per game dropped to .3 TDs/game from .65 in NO. We haven't maximized his talent here; there's no other way to say it.

We have great weapons, there is no reason why we should be so terrible in the red zone. Hopefully we get better from here on out; or else we will not be going far into the playoffs.

I'm not trying to make this a "Graham vs. Baldwin" debate. I'm simply putting it out there because there may be a reason for it. Maybe Jimmy's double covered. Maybe he's forced to block so Wilson might not get killed in the pocket. Maybe Wilson just didn't see him when he was open.

You're entirely right; we haven't maximized Graham's talent here, there's no two ways about it. And we should. But if a lot of that output has shifted to Baldwin, for example, it's not wasted, merely directed elsewhere. That's what I was getting at. And a Baldwin touchdown is worth the same seven points for the Seahawks as a Graham one in the end. Well, provided Hauschka makes the extra point.

My apologies for putting words in your mouth. I think we are on the same page.

The problem is a lot of the output hasn't fallen on Baldwin; it's fallen on no one. We are 27th in the league in the red zone. Unacceptable when we have two $10+ million a year receivers and RW behind center.

It's simply mindboggling to think that in a year where Russell Wilson broke his own Seahawks passing yardage record, Doug Baldwin had an all-time high in receiving yards, and Jimmy Graham is what, third in receiving yards, that we're 27th in the league in the red zone.

That, to me, tells me that if our red zone woes were even adequate, we'd have an offense like Atlanta's. One minor tweak, say perhaps, the offensive line, and we're a 13-14 win team.

 

[StoneCold]

Isn't Jimmy breaking pass reception records for Seahawks tight ends this season?

I don't think you realize how great Graham is/was w/ NO. We are talking Hall of Fame, yet we use him like just another guy.

"we use him like just another guy"?

Graham LED THE TEAM IN RECEPTIONS yesterday. What if anything would satisfy you?

Sheesh

He's averaged 25% less receptions per year in the 2 years he's been with us. And yes I prorated his time on IR last year. Not being utilized enough.

Seattle - 2016
Passing (Comp-Att-Int-Avg, total pass yards) 368 - 567 - 12 - 7.8 - 5715
Jimmah - (Games, Comps, Yards) 16 65 923

NO - 2014
Passing (Comp-Att-Int-Avg, total pass yards) 472 - 674 - 15 - 7.8 - 5074
Jimmah - (Games, Comps, Yards) 16 85 889

Pretty comparable. Far fewer TD's in Seattle so he probably could be better utilized, but perhaps the D is playing him differently and Jimmah is getting older.

 

[Jimjones0384]

They are bracketing Graham in the red zone. The problem is more with the running game, than the pass game. If they honored the run a little more, they might get a little more one on one with Jimmy. Also, Jimmy is turning into a good blocker. With the line being what they are, they need all of the help they can get.

I have read on here, people saying just put the other tight ends in to block, and flex Jimmy out. That is a horribly simplistic view. Looks good on paper, doesn't work out that way. That is tipping your hand. You need them to not know whether Jimmy is going to stay and block, or go out. There are plays where he blocks and releases too. You have to blend that all together. Remember, there are coaches and players on the other side of the field paid to stop you. If you bring in extra tight ends, then throw to Jimmy all the time, not hard to figure out what is going to happen.

Edit:. With all that said, I do agree they could do better job scheming ways to get him the ball more in the red zone. Running the ball effectively would be the easiest way to do it. But, this line just isn't going to be consistently good at run blocking.

 

[chris98251]

They are bracketing Graham in the red zone. The problem is more with the running game, than the pass game. If they honored the run a little more, they might get a little more one on one with Jimmy. Also, Jimmy is turning into a good blocker. With the line being what they are, they need all of the help they can get.

I have read on here, people saying just put the other tight ends in to block, and flex Jimmy out. That is a horribly simplistic view. Looks good on paper, doesn't work out that way. That is tipping your hand. You need them to not know whether Jimmy is going to stay and block, or go out. There are plays where he blocks and releases too. You have to blend that all together. Remember, there are coaches and players on the other side of the field paid to stop you. If you bring in extra tight ends, then throw to Jimmy all the time, not hard to figure out what is going to happen.

Edit:. With all that said, I do agree they could do better job scheming ways to get him the ball more in the red zone. Running the ball effectively would be the easiest way to do it. But, this line just isn't going to be consistently good at run blocking.

So when Kearse, Baldwin, Locket or any of our other WR's are lined up were tipping our hand?

He would be a WR able to establish position on a defender, or come back in and set up as a TE on the line in a double TE formation, and changing the play from an obviously looking pass to a power run with Reese in the back field. Simple is as simple does, first look isn't what you get all the time.

 

[semiahmoo]

Isn't Jimmy breaking pass reception records for Seahawks tight ends this season?

I don't think you realize how great Graham is/was w/ NO. We are talking Hall of Fame, yet we use him like just another guy.

YUP. If we're gonna make any kind of run into the playoffs, our Hawks best unleash JG on opposing defenses.

 

[Hawks46]

They are bracketing Graham in the red zone. The problem is more with the running game, than the pass game. If they honored the run a little more, they might get a little more one on one with Jimmy. Also, Jimmy is turning into a good blocker. With the line being what they are, they need all of the help they can get.

I have read on here, people saying just put the other tight ends in to block, and flex Jimmy out. That is a horribly simplistic view. Looks good on paper, doesn't work out that way. That is tipping your hand. You need them to not know whether Jimmy is going to stay and block, or go out. There are plays where he blocks and releases too. You have to blend that all together. Remember, there are coaches and players on the other side of the field paid to stop you. If you bring in extra tight ends, then throw to Jimmy all the time, not hard to figure out what is going to happen.

Edit:. With all that said, I do agree they could do better job scheming ways to get him the ball more in the red zone. Running the ball effectively would be the easiest way to do it. But, this line just isn't going to be consistently good at run blocking.

Good post. Many people don't realize how hard it is to cover at TE when he blocks down, then releases into a route. Graham is still fast enoug that he's a mismatch on most LBers, and when you get one making a read step (or two) towards the LOS, then see Graham coming at you full speed ? Look out.

The problem is that in the red zone, things are condensed. You don't have to worry about getting beat deep on defense, so we're keeping Graham in tight to the LOS...even when he's standing up, he's mainly split as a tight slot. So the defense runs a LBer at him underneath, and brackets him over the top with a Safety. The beauty of that is, the safety is still there for when the WR's run across the end zone. You're double covering in zone while letting at least one WR run right to your area. It's pretty basic (yet smart) use of one person to defend an area.

If you split Graham out wide, you're forcing the defense to show what they're going to do. They have to line a guy up on Graham; now you know if you have a size advantage, a speed advantage, etc. It's going to be very difficult for them to bring a safety over the top without leaving the middle of the end zone wide open. So you're either getting Jimmy one on one, or you're getting Luke Willson off the line for the easiest TD's of his career (you saw one of them last game...Graham was doubled on the play and WIlson threw to Willson even if it was a tight window).

We're not doing anything to force the defenses' hand, we're just running our stuff and letting them dictate how it's going to work. It's not working very well.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Nobody in the league can cover Jimmy Graham one on one, period.
He needs be used A LOT in the playoffs.