MacDonald riding with Geno

[Ozzy]

The tape breakdowns are almost always biased. Many of you guys posted a pick showed that Geno got hit and then said it wasn’t his fault. He locked on to the deep route, had a guy wide open in the intermediate area and never saw him and threw a pick instead. Corbin smith posted it and was called on it because Geno had a guy wide open. So yeah the “we break down film” and you guys don’t so we’re right is just flat out disingenuous at times. That exact same play was parrroted on here as proof it’s not Geno’s fault and any coach would say it’s at least 50/50 on Geno for not seeing the field.

But I can see why if you just look at the result you can come to a 100% conclusion Geno wasn’t at fault……doesn’t mean you’re right though it means you saw what you wanted to see and instantly confirmed your priors. Now on that play it would be fair to say well it’s probably a 50/50 the line did get beat and Geno probably could’ve hit the other wide open dude.

 

[Ozzy]

I specifically avoided saying the word "only." I very specifically said I see a majority from one side to avoid this exact reply.

It does not matter, however, because no one reads in sufficient detail anymore.

Well when you say majority it’s the same thing in principle. It’s just flat out false. You have really, really strong feelings towards Geno so when you come in this thread you already are pissed before you even open it. You set yourself up to see it through that lense. Then when you see a jab you instantly confirms what you thought. We all do this to be fair. I’ll just add this thread has been cleaned up a lot and you aren’t seeing everything. I could also show you some stuff that is bizarre from YOUR side that is worse that what’s left up but in all honesty I’m probably it going to convince you or more you off your post and that’s fine.

Let’s try to keep this fun and if someone doesn’t agree with your(general sense not you in particular) don’t take it person, don’t think the person is a piece of s#%% or whatever.

 

[keasley45]

well hell its 20 pages long and for sure people are messing with people. I've also had to delete many posts from the pro Geno side for obvious stuff that you're not seeing.

I love Keasley but its happening to the other side as well you're just not seeing it. Again its like the word that can't be said. People see the faults in the other side but never on their own side. I have taken a ton of crap for being critical of Geno, a ton.

It's also the off season so trading barbs is ok as long as people aren't being rude. I'll add this, multiple posters because we disagree on Geno have gone to only commenting on my posts and saying weird personal things over and over in a weird cult like pattern. It's there you're just not seeing it for some reason.

Bro.

How many times has the 'pro' Geno side come out and said 'he's a top 5 qb'? The laugh emoji's come out as soon as you entertain the idea he can be top 10 with better play in areas around him.

And how many times has the other side said ' hes around 17 or worse... or average at best'. ... bridge to nowehere...

How many times has the pro side said ' we are definitely winning a superbowl because hes just THAT good'?

And how many times have we heard 'we will never win anything with Geno'

Or, 'if you want mediocrity forever, keep Geno'.

This isnt even a legit pro v anti debate. Its laughable that one side gets labeled as defending him when all it really is is refwrencing key metrics that point to the
very real possibility that we CAN be really good with him and Geno CAN play better than he has shown vs 'he cant, he wont, he never will'...because ... ' he never has'. Because he absolutely, unequivocally has been playing behind one of the worst lines in the league and behind play callers who cant keep their jobs.

You are citing Geno taking a sack as if anyine ever said that him taking a sack is never his fault. Hiw many time have i myself said the dude needs to pull the ball down and run, or run sooner? Go back and read the posts.

If you come out and say, it was Geno's fault on this play in this game, and conveniently miss the fact that in THAT circumstance the playcall was crap, is someone not supposed to mention it? Fact is, the playcall rarely comes into discussion and is IMMEDIATLEY dismissed as defending him because the 'anti' side sees him as guilty right off the bat. How about if you cite something like INTs, dont just blanket assign the blame to the QB when each int has its own reasons for happening. Actually dissecting the reason isnt defending anyone. He threw 15 and half or slightly more were his fault. Without a doubt.

Sorry that arguing the facts makes the guy seem slightky better than 22nd, or 16th.

And sorry that if he is 16th in this offense with a garbage coordinator, no run game and no protection that there are people that look at that situation and think... he can be better than WHATEVER he is now if the team around him was better.

For whatever reason, that last bits gets the ire of folks and they dont even want to entertain the idea that even if all of .net right nows agreed that he is the 16th best qb, he is that playing in undeniably one of the worst situations for a qb in the league - unqualified OC 3 years running, one of the most pressured and one of the worst run games. All facts.

Part of the issue is that Geno gets blamed for most everything that we havent accomplished, which is stupid, and elicits a response in defense of a truth other than that.

Its Geno's fault we havent made the playoffs

Its Genos fault we cant score in the redzone

Its Genos fault he took sack X that cost us the game

Its really partly Genos cault the offense is terrible

Its Genos fault there was a pick to lose the game

Geno has shown he cant function in pressure situations

Geno cant win a big game

And before that in 2021

Geno isnt good, he only tossed 14 straight completions because it was the Jags

The 2022 offseason:

Geno is the 33rd best QB in the league

Geno cant beat Drew Lock

Geno cant get us 5 wins this year

Geno only won the job because Carroll likes him

2022 - Geno is lighting it up... 'nobody saw it coming'... sure.

2nd half of the season - slight slump ...

And

Geno is who he is... he sucks. Average at best

Rinse. Repeat.

And on
And on
And on

There isnt a defense of Geno. Its a defense of reason.

And referencing stats on the 'pro' Geno side gets labeled 'cherry-picking' and tossed aside because those stats and truths dont align with the narrative that he's 'average at best'. Actually considering them and answering the question HOW a qb can olay as well as he has in sub- ideal circumstances isnt possible for whatever reason. Or of it is considered, Joe Burrow is cited as doing more with 'similar' parts and so Geno is again a lost cause.

No 'average at best' qb in the history of the league has led the league in accuracy while playing behind a broken line, with a broken run game, and a broken play sheet authored by fired coordinators.

It

Just

Isnt

Possible.

And i have said before a few times, just chill on the debate and see what he does in 25 with hopefully better pieces. But the ' he cant, he wont, he hasnt, ... chants ' reign on.

Proof is in the pudding.

 

[Ozzy]

History tells us there is a better chance he falls off a cliff next year because of his age even with a better supporting cast. So for me it’s more about what is better for the team. Look at Atlanta. Massive contract for an old QB and now they’re stuck /‘d Cousins has been light years better than Geno for a long, long time. 2-3 years which is what he will want for 40 million dollars? Yeah I’m not convinced that is the best route.

I’ve said thing a million times but it’s reasonable, even if you think it’s crazy, to go much cheaper and use that saved money to attack other areas of your team and ideally draft the next guy too.

I think the disconnect for you is that you guys think that is crazy because Geno is so good that it’s impossible to replace him. His metrics were very, very average even if he was super accurate. Passer rating, EPA, QBR etc were all average to below average.

I can see an argument for keeping Geno but I can also see an argument for moving on as well. The people who can’t see the other side as reasonable are the ones who get all upset in this debate.

 

[CallMeADawg]

History tells us there is a better chance he falls off a cliff next year because of his age even with a better supporting cast. So for me it’s more about what is better for the team. Look at Atlanta. Massive contract for an old QB and now they’re stuck /‘d Cousins has been light years better than Geno for a long, long time. 2-3 years which is what he will want for 40 million dollars? Yeah I’m not convinced that is the best route.

I’ve said thing a million times but it’s reasonable, even if you think it’s crazy, to go much cheaper and use that saved money to attack other areas of your team and ideally draft the next guy too.

I think the disconnect for you is that you guys think that is crazy because Geno is so good that it’s impossible to replace him. His metrics were very, very average even if he was super accurate. Passer rating, EPA, QBR etc were all average to below average.

I can see an argument for keeping Geno but I can also see an argument for moving on as well. The people who can’t see the other side as reasonable are the ones who get all upset in this debate.

You have decided the root cause of Geno’s stats are because he sucks. Others have decided differently for the root cause. Which side is right remains to be seen.

 

[Ozzy]

You have decided the root cause of Geno’s stats are because he sucks. Others have decided differently for the root cause. Which side is right remains to be seen.

I don’t think Geno sucks. I’ve said over and over he’s a good QB in the 12-18 range. What I’ve decided is throughout history giving an aging QB a lot of money has almost never worked. He’s set to make 31 million next year. He will want a raise on a new contract. I’m with history on this. Look at Atlanta with Cousins who’s been better than Geno. He fell off a cliff this year.

I think Geno’s stats are because of him, the line, play calling and injuries. The extremists in this debate have removed Geno as a factor at all in his bad play.

 

[Ostatehawk]

I suspect the team wants everyone believing Geno is the guy so that they can have an opportunity to draft a second tier QB. I get the feeling Geno would hold out if he doesn’t get an extension. Time will time who ultimately wins.

This. I think he might hold out too. In that instance F him. Let him go test the market. Im ok with a reasonable cost SHORT extension - and I don't know exactly what that would look like. But if he tries to hold our feet to the fire?? No way and Hello Sam Howell or some other noob.

 

[Ozzy]

Here’s a stat since it’s being said only one side uses objectivity in this debate

Completion % has a correlation of 308 for winning. EPA has a correlation of 871. Geno is ranked 29th in EPA which is miles better in predicting success outcomes. Is ignoring that being objective or stat driven. We’ve seen completion % being touted time and time again but it’s weird EPA is ignored.

So again the idea that one side is objective and “serious football” and the other isn’t is a ridiculous take, it just is.

 

[RiverDog]

I don't think it is fair to say that just because someone is not interested in coach that they would be a bad mentor. Peyton Manning was pushed out because of his neck injury, not because he refused to mentor Luck. I think coaching, mentoring and leading are different things. I think Bill Belicheck was a great coach and leader but not a great mentor. Pete was a great mentor and leader but not a very good coach.

I didn't say j/b someone isn't interested in coaching that they would be a bad mentor. What I said is that it is evidence that he wouldn't have. Big difference.

Since it is a fact that Manning chose not to go into coaching even though he had ample opportunities to do so, it gives credence to the rumors that he was not or would not have been a good mentor.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Fair enough, Mael. Go Hawks

 

[SoulfishHawk]

This. I think he might hold out too. In that instance F him. Let him go test the market. Im ok with a reasonable cost SHORT extension - and I don't know exactly what that would look like. But if he tries to hold our feet to the fire?? No way and Hello Sam Howell or some other noob.

Holding out when you've been in ONE playoff game with the Hawks is next level hilarious. But hey....he has "stats"

 

[strohmin]

I didn't say j/b someone isn't interested in coaching that they would be a bad mentor. What I said is that it is evidence that he wouldn't have. Big difference.

Since it is a fact that Manning chose not to go into coaching even though he had ample opportunities to do so, it gives credence to the rumors that he was not or would not have been a good mentor.

What about the Manning passing academy? Alot of famous QBs including Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, Josh Allen and CJ Stroud attended the academy in which Peyton Manning is an active part of teaching QB mechanics and strategies. Even Andrew Luck himself attended it. I think thats pretty good mentoring.

 

[keasley45]

I don’t think Geno sucks. I’ve said over and over he’s a good QB in the 12-18 range. What I’ve decided is throughout history giving an aging QB a lot of money has almost never worked. He’s set to make 31 million next year. He will want a raise on a new contract. I’m with history on this. Look at Atlanta with Cousins who’s been better than Geno. He fell off a cliff this year.

I think Geno’s stats are because of him, the line, play calling and injuries. The extremists in this debate have removed Geno as a factor at all in his bad play.

40 mil isnt what it used to be. He made that this year because the FO decided that if he plays to a certain level, he'd be worth it.

You have decided he WILL decline depsite the fact that he has shown zero sign of declining. The dude broke one for a rusbing TD and hit what, 20mph or better? His accuracy is the best in the league. If he does lose a step and a little off of his arm, he still has a lot to lose before he becomes a money pit.

He's watched the game from the sideline for a good number of years and obviously learned a ton. His physical talent doesnt look diminished at all at 34. I just dont get why, in a league where finding a very good qb aint easy and where you have a team that has the talent to win now, you would forego locking in a guy who can operate whatever offense that comes his way at a very high level. Especially when he has done just that already with horrible support.

And Kirk Cousins was NEVER known as a guy who could bring a team back with ice in his veins and put a game on his shoulders. His mental makeup is the exact opposite of a guy like Geno.

And here is the thing, Geno likely isnt going to be here 4 years from now unless he is content backing up a young QBOTF. But he absolutely can play well for the next 2 years, maybe 3. There is zero direct evidence to the contrary. Citing what usually happens to a qb at his age has no bearing on anything given he has thrown roughly the same number of passes in his career as Joe Burrow - not exactly a casestudy in the career arc of an aging qb.

 

[Hotchy]

Restructure Geno, get rid of Sam, draft OL in rd 1, draft Dart in rd 2. Restructure Lockett, trade DK Galloway to Jerry for 2 first rounders , replacing him with one of those picks

 

[keasley45]

Here’s a stat since it’s being said only one side uses objectivity in this debate

Completion % has a correlation of 308 for winning. EPA has a correlation of 871. Geno is ranked 29th in EPA which is miles better in predicting success outcomes. Is ignoring that being objective or stat driven. We’ve seen completion % being touted time and time again but it’s weird EPA is ignored.

So again the idea that one side is objective and “serious football” and the other isn’t is a ridiculous take, it just is.

His EPA is low because he hasnt had a ton of tds.

But there absolutley IS evidence that he can throw Tds and lead in EPA.

2022...

Among 43 qualifying quarterbacks in 2022, Geno Smith ranked 4th in EPA/play, 3rd in CPOE, and 4th in success rate when operating out of shotgun while tied or trailing by one score. Only one quarterback was better in all three categories: Patrick Mahomes.

So there is the stat that YOU have selected as being critical. Where we differ is that you will look at the fact that that was 2022 and see him declining on his own since, despite the Fact that his OC was shown to be a failure (unable to adapt despite finding early success) here, failed when he left and is no longer in thr league. Doesnt a failed coordinator, failed plan, poor coaching and sub-par scheme contribute to a team and QB regressing? Or is it just on Geno that the offense stalled under Waldron? 2022 was also the last year that we had any semblance of a rushing attack, if only for the first half of the season.

Then, Grubb gets here and... do we REALLY have to go into why Geno and the offense drastically underperformed?

So you choose to ignore the contributing factors that are SO obvious that Seattle is now known as the franchise with a rotating door at the coordinator position and instead just focus on the qb, as though the qbs performance isnt tied directly to the skill of the guy calling the games for him.

The fact is that Geno HAS shown that when he has even COMPETENT playcalling and a REASONABLE rushing attack that he can not only be GOOD in EPA and CPOE but among the BEST.

 

[NoGain]

Geno's a decent QB, and I can't come up with a feasible better replacement for him. But he's getting older, not as smart/clever/moxy enough of a QB for my tastes, like a Montana, Burrows, Mahomes, Brady, Manning, etc... Nobody outside of our fanbase is pining for Geno, whatever stats you want to put out there. Let's be clear about that..

 

[CallMeADawg]

Geno's a decent QB, and I can't come up with a feasible better replacement for him. But he's getting older, not as smart/clever/moxy enough of a QB for my tastes, like a Montana, Burrows, Mahomes, Brady, Manning, etc... Nobody outside of our fanbase is pining for Geno, whatever stats you want to put out there. Let's be clear about that..

In other words, you subjectively do not like Geno.

 

[NoGain]

In other words, you subjectively do not like Geno.

Like or dislike has little to do with it for me. He's an older, decent bridge QB for us until we can hopefully get a younger QB we can get excited about for the future.

 

[Appyhawk]

Like or dislike has little to do with it for me. He's an older, decent bridge QB for us until we can hopefully get a younger QB we can get excited about for the future.

Oh, you mean like one with the "it" factor no one wants to believe exists, or is a real thing.
My definition for the IT factor is that it is something a few players have that most don't. It is not something they have to think about, or activate. They just have IT, and IT makes them do things right that others fail trying to do.

 

[NoGain]

Oh, you mean like one with the "it" factor no one wants to believe exists, or is a real thing.
My definition for the IT factor is that it is something a few players have that most don't. It is not something they have to think about, or activate. They just have IT, and IT makes them do things right that others fail trying to do.

It's hard to play by far the most significant position in all major team sports without having qualities, physically, mentally, character-wise and personality-wise that in some combination of ways inspires the players, coaches, and fanbase into believing that they can lead the team to where they want it to go.