Is Bevell to blame for much of this teams discontent?

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Hyak

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mrt144":2whf4v0s said:
JTB":2whf4v0s said:
nash72":2whf4v0s said:
JTB":2whf4v0s said:
But you dust yourself off, learn from it, and move on.

Have they learned from it though? I think that might be Shermans biggest gripe.

So the takeaway is to never ever throw from the one yard line even when the run game is bad?

On the play in question, they ran a fade pass to Graham that Wilson badly underthrew to where the Rams LB was able to compete for the ball and it ended up being reviewed and ruled as an incomplete pass because Graham had partial possession and was out of bounds. The play call, if executed properly, is either a TD or an incomplete pass. If it had been picked off, it was all on Wilson.

Two plays later, they execute and it's a TD pass to Baldwin.

The lesson is to execute.

Execute so well that the playcalls, personnel, pre game prep, defensive weaknesses and strengths observed in game and pre game are irrelevant. Just do what we do and if there's ever a failing lets only focus on how the players could have made a play better, not ask ourselves, "to what degree were the players put into a position to deliver".

I guess I take it for granted that every player can do better than they currently are and subsequently focus on the purely cognitive skillset of coaching to put fallible players in the best positions to be less so.

The play call had Graham in single coverage with a LB. That's a huge advantage schematically. Wilson made a bad throw without any pressure. How is the OC responsible for that?

I can certainly question the SB 49 play call/design more so than this specific one that Sherman had the meltdown over but it's a fact that if run properly Lockette would have been wide open for a TD.
 

scutterhawk

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sdog1981":pc0q184i said:
Kieth Olbermann talks about this very thing the day after the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-t-Okzp_cw


He brings up the fact that teams never recover from this. All the players and coaches have NFL PTSD from this event. When it aired in 2015, "I was like no way these Seahawks are different". Now going into 2017 I can say the team in mentally broken, they are a classic example of a bully that got beat up in front of all the kids at school and no one fears them anymore.

On the link you posted of Keith Olberman? He is clowning around, OR, he is full of shit.
He is NO EXPERT on the subject....It reminded me of a spoiled child, throwing a shit-fit.
IF people want to point fingers at who was to BLAME for the loss, they have to take off the blinders.
To believe that it CULMINATED to ONE PLAY-CALL or only ONE PERSON being responsible, is shallow thinking.
I'm sure that Sherman and the Defense in general are pissed about the outcome, but they have their share of blame for not putting a STOP on the Patriots from mounting a comeback.
Kids at school?, beat up bully? :pukeface:
 

nash72

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JTB":3nucfzbk said:
nash72":3nucfzbk said:
JTB":3nucfzbk said:
But you dust yourself off, learn from it, and move on.

Have they learned from it though? I think that might be Shermans biggest gripe.

So the takeaway is to never ever throw from the one yard line even when the run game is bad?

On the play in question, they ran a fade pass to Graham that Wilson badly underthrew to where the Rams LB was able to compete for the ball and it ended up being reviewed and ruled as an incomplete pass because Graham had partial possession and was out of bounds. The play call, if executed properly, is either a TD or an incomplete pass. If it had been picked off, it was all on Wilson.

Two plays later, they execute and it's a TD pass to Baldwin.

The lesson is to execute.

Was the TD catch made by our worst receiver? Was it a slant? Was it against a defense that had one of our past players on it telling the others guys what the play was and what was going to happen before we even snapped the ball?

I'm not against running pass plays in that area, but at least try to run credible pass plays using strengths instead of weaknesses. Hell, Lockette wasnt going to score even if he did catch that pass. Thats bad.
 

Siouxhawk

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scutterhawk":1zb0i054 said:
sdog1981":1zb0i054 said:
Kieth Olbermann talks about this very thing the day after the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-t-Okzp_cw


He brings up the fact that teams never recover from this. All the players and coaches have NFL PTSD from this event. When it aired in 2015, "I was like no way these Seahawks are different". Now going into 2017 I can say the team in mentally broken, they are a classic example of a bully that got beat up in front of all the kids at school and no one fears them anymore.

On the link you posted of Keith Olberman? He is clowning around, OR, he is full of shit.
He is NO EXPERT on the subject....It reminded me of a spoiled child, throwing a shit-fit.
IF people want to point fingers at who was to BLAME for the loss, they have to take off the blinders.
To believe that it CULMINATED to ONE PLAY-CALL or only ONE PERSON being responsible, is shallow thinking.
I'm sure that Sherman and the Defense in general are pissed about the outcome, but they have their share of blame for not putting a STOP on the Patriots from mounting a comeback.
Kids at school?, beat up bully? :pukeface:
Your second paragraph reminds me of 4 or 5 around here.
 

Own The West

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If YOU lost the superbowl on a questionable call and the guy responsible said he wouldn't do anything different; would you feel comfortable letting him lead you in the future? I mean it sounds like he'd rather lose the superbowl than be questioned.

Even if he's the best coordinator that's ever lived; if the team doesn't trust him, he's useless.

If Bevell has lost the trust of this board, isn't it possible he's lost the trust of the team as well?
 

Hyak

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nash72":3da2p7yi said:
JTB":3da2p7yi said:
nash72":3da2p7yi said:
JTB":3da2p7yi said:
But you dust yourself off, learn from it, and move on.

Have they learned from it though? I think that might be Shermans biggest gripe.

So the takeaway is to never ever throw from the one yard line even when the run game is bad?

On the play in question, they ran a fade pass to Graham that Wilson badly underthrew to where the Rams LB was able to compete for the ball and it ended up being reviewed and ruled as an incomplete pass because Graham had partial possession and was out of bounds. The play call, if executed properly, is either a TD or an incomplete pass. If it had been picked off, it was all on Wilson.

Two plays later, they execute and it's a TD pass to Baldwin.

The lesson is to execute.

Was the TD catch made by our worst receiver? Was it a slant? Was it against a defense that had one of our past players on it telling the others guys what the play was and what was going to happen before we even snapped the ball?

I'm not against running pass plays in that area, but at least try to run credible pass plays using strengths instead of weaknesses. Hell, Lockette wasnt going to score even if he did catch that pass. Thats bad.

Lockette absolutely scores (assuming he catches it) if Kearse does his job on the play. As for the play, I don't even ever recall them running it before in a game but it's standard in an NFL playbook. It is what it is.

Back to 2016 and the Sherman reaction, doesn't the play in question to Graham meet the criteria of a great matchup? It's abundantly clear that it was and that Russell threw a crappy pass. If Sherman should have been mad at anyone there, it should have been at Wilson.
 

Siouxhawk

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Own The West":1rfhx8lq said:
If YOU lost the superbowl on a questionable call and the guy responsible said he wouldn't do anything different; would you feel comfortable letting him lead you in the future? I mean it sounds like he'd rather lose the superbowl than be questioned.

Even if he's the best coordinator that's ever lived; if the team doesn't trust him, he's useless.

If Bevell has lost the trust of this board, isn't it possible he's lost the trust of the team as well?
Because we score on that play 90 times out of 100. It was a good call for that defensive personnel group; the outcome sucked because we needed 1 of 3 things to happen and it didn't.

And don't be convinced that this board has unanimously lost faith in Bevell. Just a couple of naysayers who are overwhelmed by reality is all. Did you hear what the head coach said on this subject, by any chance?
 

scutterhawk

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Siouxhawk":299l70m9 said:
And yet with our offensive cap space ranked 28th, Bev's offense has ranked in the top 7 in DVOA (efficiency) 4 of the last 5 years. Those are real factual numbers, not nonsense fabricated out of thin air.
Yeah, but we still gotta blame somebody for something, or all this pissing and moaning is for naught.
 

Hyak

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Own The West":2d5qo5gx said:
If YOU lost the superbowl on a questionable call and the guy responsible said he wouldn't do anything different; would you feel comfortable letting him lead you in the future? I mean it sounds like he'd rather lose the superbowl than be questioned.

Even if he's the best coordinator that's ever lived; if the team doesn't trust him, he's useless.

If Bevell has lost the trust of this board, isn't it possible he's lost the trust of the team as well?

Why have so many of those core players re-upped here AFTER that play? Best I can tell is that Sherman is the one beating the drum.

The irony is that he went ballistic because Bevell called a pass play to Graham in the red zone and one of the huge criticisms of him is that he doesn't utilize Graham in the red zone enough! Let alone the play failed because of a bad throw by Wilson.
 

Siouxhawk

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scutterhawk":1622jzus said:
Siouxhawk":1622jzus said:
And yet with our offensive cap space ranked 28th, Bev's offense has ranked in the top 7 in DVOA (efficiency) 4 of the last 5 years. Those are real factual numbers, not nonsense fabricated out of thin air.
Yeah, but we still gotta blame somebody for something, or all this pissing and moaning is for naught.
Yep, brittle souls need a coping mechanism.
 

Largent80

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@JTB don't get into a pissing match with the chuckleheads on this forum. You are a way better poster and don't need to waste your time.
 

Siouxhawk

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JTB":3osusuee said:
Own The West":3osusuee said:
If YOU lost the superbowl on a questionable call and the guy responsible said he wouldn't do anything different; would you feel comfortable letting him lead you in the future? I mean it sounds like he'd rather lose the superbowl than be questioned.

Even if he's the best coordinator that's ever lived; if the team doesn't trust him, he's useless.

If Bevell has lost the trust of this board, isn't it possible he's lost the trust of the team as well?

Why have so many of those core players re-upped here AFTER that play? Best I can tell is that Sherman is the one beating the drum.

The irony is that he went ballistic because Bevell called a pass play to Graham in the red zone and one of the huge criticisms of him is that he doesn't utilize Graham in the red zone enough! Let alone the play failed because of a bad throw by Wilson.
And let's be clear in what often gets lost in the shuffle and that's that Sherm was referring to an isolated incident that brought his mind back to the Super Bowl. At no time did he single out Bevell as a poor coach or question his abilities and competence as our offensive coordinator. The noise where that blends in comes from people out of the loop grinding axes on social media or talk radio.
 

scutterhawk

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Jville":1lhku0e6 said:
I think the blame game stumbles around from one lame excuse to the next. It doesn't offer any insight or lesson.
Well put....It's like trying to scratch an itch you can't reach. :lol:
 

nash72

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JTB":2qiynlio said:
Lockette absolutely scores (assuming he catches it) if Kearse does his job on the play. As for the play, I don't even ever recall them running it before in a game but it's standard in an NFL playbook. It is what it is.

Back to 2016 and the Sherman reaction, doesn't the play in question to Graham meet the criteria of a great matchup? It's abundantly clear that it was and that Russell threw a crappy pass. If Sherman should have been mad at anyone there, it should have been at Wilson.

I dont think he does. The route was to shallow and Butler was going to crack him, but thats a fight for a different day. Speaking of that play and Kearse though, your asking a lot from him. Your asking him to block or pick a guy thats physically way superior to you and somebody who already knows the play and whats coming. Good luck with that.

Graham's a good matchup no matter who's on him. I agree it was a bad pass. No argument here. That play in question wasnt the root for Shermans anger.
 

scutterhawk

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Largent80":gh029l34 said:
@JTB don't get into a pissing match with the chuckleheads on this forum. You are a way better poster and don't need to waste your time.

I can only TEACH, but I can't force anyone with mental blocks.. to learn.
 

Hyak

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nash72":18ck2tmm said:
Graham's a good matchup no matter who's on him. I agree it was a bad pass. No argument here. That play in question wasnt the root for Shermans anger.

But that play resulted in Sherman going off on Pete and Bevell on the sidelines. Sherman was 100% wrong. He focused on the end result and conveniently ignored anything related to how and why, you know critical pieces of information. Bevell did nothing wrong in calling that pass play to Graham.

Sherman then proceeded to make an ass out of himself and got mad when someone asked a legitimate question on whether he was qualified to make play calls.

His inability to move on from it when he's 100% in the wrong is what pissed Pete off.
 

hawk45

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If Browner knew it was coming by formation then that's more an indictment on showing heavy tendency earlier in the year than it is on the actual playcall itself.

Not handing it off is no sin at all. Expecting Kearse to win a clear-out vs Browner is...a bit of a sin IMO. Especially if Browner knows it's coming.

Putting aside any tendencies shown earlier in the year, to me the clock management from Pete that negated the opportunity to run the ball first and then pass/run on a subsequent down was just as big a sin as anything Bevell did.

I think the outcome of the game has had lingering effects on the team. Whether Bevell is to blame for the outcome to such an extent that HE is the problem is a different story. If the players feel that way that's disappointing (but not entirely unexpected these are guys in their twenties).

The whole "never pass from the 1" is really the least-defensible position, but Sherman has never met a hill he didn't want to die on that I can tell. In public, that is.
 

mrt144

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JTB":h1uogsrf said:
The play call had Graham in single coverage with a LB. That's a huge advantage schematically. Wilson made a bad throw without any pressure. How is the OC responsible for that?

I can certainly question the SB 49 play call/design more so than this specific one that Sherman had the meltdown over but it's a fact that if run properly Lockette would have been wide open for a TD.

He's not in the former but more so in the latter. In the former, as you point out, you have your top offensive talents in a 1 on 1 situation and a unforced bad pass subverts it. In the latter you have a ST gunner as the pointman on a play where another is boxing out a CB who has more than passing familiarity with us and the physical tools to disrupt those kinds of plays in the biggest 'must stop' situation imagined. All credit to Butler for being a better CB than Ricardo at WR.

It does raise the top level conversation in my mind which is "Are our current players good enough for Bevell's current offensive playcalling" If it is merely a question of execution then I feel this is the natural extension of where breakdowns between playcall intent and playcall success occur.

Let's just say that latter half of 2015 was 100% of potential output. Last year was at say 75% of that realized potential. Is the gap on peak potential caused by players being unable to execute through inherent talent levels, lack of preparation and coaching, being system mismatches, injuries or other?

An even higher level question is how far off from peak performance can the offense be at and cross various performance thresholds in the playoffs and how much does regular season quagmires (like Tampa, shudder) reflect on forward expectations in those situations?

I know the old axiom goes "you don't adjust how you call a game until it's executed very well and still comes up short". I suppose the quibbling point here is between the belief that we're executing the gameplan very well and still coming up short (and don't the stats bear out that we do execute efficiently in aggregate to our peers?) and we're not executing the gameplan very well and that simply needs to be better.

What are the mechanisms for getting a player to 'execute' better assuming inherent talent is relatively sticky?

Now I expect the answer to be fuzzy and I recognize that. I take it for granted that players can always play better to a certain extent. I just don't expect it to happen organically by their own gumption. And I want to solve the puzzle around why 2016s players didn't perform like their predecessors to a large extent because this is mostly the same exact team we're seeing in the future. Injuries were that significant and the OL that raw that they couldn't possibly hope to approach peak performance levels? And it was merely an aberration? That we should expect less integral injuries to QB, RB and WR going forward than last year and thats most of the difference and absent those we will have anywhere from "good enough" to "better than good"?

To me, it seems like if you're all in on players mostly being responsible for the dropoff in 2016, then there are deeper systemic issues vis a vis talent and depth on offense given very few changes to how Bevell and Pete want the offense to operate going forward. I tend to think more of our players inherent talent but hey, I've been wrong about stuff before and I could be underestimating just how much our current offensive players need to improve and remain healthy to see an offense that takes care of business.

I am curious though - how does a team that overall is efficient on offense have such middling red zone efficiency for 4 years and a steep dropoff in the 5th? Do players just execute worse the closer they get to the endzone inherently? Systemically? Specifically RW? Specifically his height?! In 5 years of playing in with his OC there are no answers on how to goose red zone efficiency with him as QB? Has our roster around RW actually gotten worse for the tasks of the red zone assuming a fairly static Bevell?

And that's what almost all these questions assume: If Bevell's ability as OC is mostly static and inherently good and the variable that controls output is player ability, what can be done really than pay and pray?

Sure its easy to pile on Bevell for the play and I do it because I get a small cathartic release every single time I do but I do think there are some deeper inherent issues in flexibility and adaptation vis a vis Bevell and smaller extent PC where he's calling plays for the team he wants or wishes he had, not the team he in fact has.
 
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