Is Bevell to blame for much of this teams discontent?

[Hyak]

It does raise the top level conversation in my mind which is "Are our current players good enough for Bevell's current offensive playcalling" If it is merely a question of execution then I feel this is the natural extension of where breakdowns between playcall intent and playcall success occur.

Let's just say that latter half of 2015 was 100% of potential output. Last year was at say 75% of that realized potential. Is the gap on peak potential caused by players being unable to execute through inherent talent levels, lack of preparation and coaching, being system mismatches, injuries or other?

An even higher level question is how far off from peak performance can the offense be at and cross various performance thresholds in the playoffs and how much does regular season quagmires (like Tampa, shudder) reflect on forward expectations in those situations?

I know the old axiom goes "you don't adjust how you call a game until it's executed very well and still comes up short". I suppose the quibbling point here is between the belief that we're executing the gameplan very well and still coming up short (and don't the stats bear out that we do execute efficiently in aggregate to our peers?) and we're not executing the gameplan very well and that simply needs to be better.

What are the mechanisms for getting a player to 'execute' better assuming inherent talent is relatively sticky?

Now I expect the answer to be fuzzy and I recognize that. I take it for granted that players can always play better to a certain extent. I just don't expect it to happen organically by their own gumption. And I want to solve the puzzle around why 2016s players didn't perform like their predecessors to a large extent because this is mostly the same exact team we're seeing in the future. Injuries were that significant and the OL that raw that they couldn't possibly hope to approach peak performance levels? And it was merely an aberration? That we should expect less integral injuries to QB, RB and WR going forward than last year and thats most of the difference and absent those we will have anywhere from "good enough" to "better than good"?

To me, it seems like if you're all in on players mostly being responsible for the dropoff in 2016, then there are deeper systemic issues vis a vis talent and depth on offense given very few changes to how Bevell and Pete want the offense to operate going forward. I tend to think more of our players inherent talent but hey, I've been wrong about stuff before and I could be underestimating just how much our current offensive players need to improve and remain healthy to see an offense that takes care of business.

I am curious though - how does a team that overall is efficient on offense have such middling red zone efficiency for 4 years and a steep dropoff in the 5th? Do players just execute worse the closer they get to the endzone inherently? Systemically? Specifically RW? Specifically his height?! In 5 years of playing in with his OC there are no answers on how to goose red zone efficiency with him as QB? Has our roster around RW actually gotten worse for the tasks of the red zone assuming a fairly static Bevell?

And that's what almost all these questions assume: If Bevell's ability as OC is mostly static and inherently good and the variable that controls output is player ability, what can be done really than pay and pray?

Sure its easy to pile on Bevell for the play and I do it because I get a small cathartic release every single time I do but I do think there are some deeper inherent issues in flexibility and adaptation vis a vis Bevell and smaller extent PC where he's calling plays for the team he wants or wishes he had, not the team he in fact has.

Good compelling post here and I'll take a stab at some of it.

Talent wise, I think they are fine at the skill spot as we sit here today. The OL is the big question mark albeit I think it's in a better place now than in 2016 given the year of experience by the young guys, the evolution of Britt, and adding ceiling/floor competition with Joeckel and Aboushi.

As for the regression in 2016 in vital offensive metrics, I think the combination of injuries to Wilson and the running backs along with the OL play struggles were the biggest factors.

Red Zone wise, the Hawks have never been good in this area under Wilson. The best ranking was 14th in 2013. They ranked 26th last year, 16th in 2015, 20th in 2014, and 16th in 2012. Theories? Smaller window of space, which plays against Wilson somewhat as well as skill guys better in space. Remember, the big draw of Graham was to help combat this. Running game wise, even with Lynch it wasn't great. I do also think there have been times where they can be really conservative knowing that the defense is so good. Of course, that's complementary football that doesn't necessarily show up on a stat sheet or in a fan's silo view of the world.

If you go back in time, though, you can see some real roster holes that played factors in the offense. For example, the 2014 WR group ended up much weaker than the plan. The group was supposed to be Baldwin, Harvin, Kearse, and Richardson. It ended up being Baldwin, Kearse, Lockette, and Walters. TE lost Zach Miller in season. In 2015, Lynch was out of shape and then injured. Rawls came on and was great until he broke his fibula. Graham went down mid-year. They ended up with Michaels as the RB. They also had the Drew Nowak experience blow up on them at center.

 

[johnnyfever]

My friend, I fully expect this to be a thing for about as long as I live. Will probably always be the most pivotal play in Super Bowl History. And it happened to our hometown team. With an all-world running back. From the one yard line. On second down. Thrown to our 5th WR. There will probably never be a coach second-guessed as much as Bevell is/was. Every single time you see Darrell Bevell's face, don't you think of that play? Every single time? And we didn't fire him. So we have to continue looking at that face and reliving that moment, over and over again. 2 years? We're just getting started.

Really? They have played 36 games since that SB, including 4 playoff games. 19 players are currently on the roster that were even on that team. Fans are irrational but if there are players sitting around obsessing about a play call 3 years ago that's on them. Get help if this is all you relive over and over when watching a game.

2014 is as meaningless as 2013 was. 2016 is done. It's a new year and all that counts is 2017.

So we only have 19 players still on the roster that suffered through the worst call in the history of football. Take a GOOD look at who those 19 players are. They are the heart and soul of this team. They busted their asses to put the team in a position to win in spite of all the injuries. Yes, there were other plays that could have gone our way. However, the fact remains that on that last series, we were in a position to win and along comes the worst play call since Pickett's charge at Gettysburg. Those 19 players have NOT forgotten that. They have to report to work every day and wonder how the person responsible for that horrendous call is still with the team. They see a double standard when it comes to being held accountable. When that play happened, I knew that this team would never get over it. You simply don't get that many opportunities to win a SB. This team will only recover when A) we get rid of those 19 players or B) we get rid of Bevell.
And, before this post gets picked apart by the guy who would eat the peanuts out of Bevell's poop, I contend that we win DESPITE having Bevell. We are able to win DESPITE piss poor play calling simply because the talent on this team is so great. However, when the talent alone isn't enough to overcome the OC's mistakes, then we lose. That happens more in the playoffs because the teams are more evenly matched. It happens more now during the season because our roster has been depleted due to free agency. We no longer have the depth that we once did. We are no longer able to overcome Bevell's incompetence. I watch every game. There are many plays, even successful ones, that were bad play calls. That is because the players make them successful. Not because they were good calls. As I have said before, there is a reason why Bevell has not been hired away to a head coaching gig.

Or maybe they see the guy who will provide the solution for getting them back to the Super Bowl and are proud to work with him.

Totally laughable, but atleast you said maybe.

 

[scutterhawk]

our offense just doesn't compare to those of teams like the Pats, Broncos w healthy Manning.

LOL, I'm sorry, but this struck me as very funny....."The Broncos With A Healthy Manning"....Like a 43 to 8 "Healthy Manning"?
Lots of folks believing that Bevell is the main culprit, are denying some very pertinent facts, Facts like; Bevell having to design plays that has to include the shortcomings and brain-farts of a crappy O-Line....Having to account for stunts, & Blitzes.... Having to work around Running plays WITH INJURED RB's....All this, with a Quarterback that sometimes has to scrap a play, and improvise, because the play breaks down, and his Receivers couldn't get open.
ALL of the Best Offensive Coordinators can, and DO make mistakes....Bevell is no different.
It's also a possibility that we could bring in another OC, and things get worse too.
Just because some fans get pissed, Pete should just can Bevell?

 

[Rocket]

Hey, were/are you a journalist? I like your sig. The internet has regressed journalism 80 years. Sensationalism rules again!

Nope, just frustrated by the de-evolution of the profession.

 

[scutterhawk]

I love the offensive ratings and the DVOA stats and all that jazz when Bevells name is brought up. Thats all great and fun, but some things get missed in that equation. Again, how often does the play break down and Wilson runs around like a greased chicken making something out of nothing? It happens at an alarming rate. The talent level never gets measured either.

If the O-Line messes up A WELL DESIGNED PLAY, that doesn't mean it's Bevell's fault, A Running Back get's Hurt, or Tackled for a Loss on a well Designed play, you can't hang that on Bevell either.
Those "DVOA Stats and all that jazz" is a direct reflection on Bevell.......You don't get to corral Bevell with ALL THE MISTAKES MADE, and deduct his SUCCESSES....Tail goes with the hyde.

 

[semiahmoo]

If YOU lost the superbowl on a questionable call and the guy responsible said he wouldn't do anything different; would you feel comfortable letting him lead you in the future? I mean it sounds like he'd rather lose the superbowl than be questioned.

Even if he's the best coordinator that's ever lived; if the team doesn't trust him, he's useless.

If Bevell has lost the trust of this board, isn't it possible he's lost the trust of the team as well?

True. Great use of the term "trust" - that has been a major factor in the team's mediocre (by elite team standards) output the last two seasons. Last season was particularly chaotic. That is a near certain indicator of trust issues.

PC is losing control of the team. Some might say he already has. The Sherman trade talk is likely an attempt to re-establish some of that control. It is also another reminder that RW is not yet managing himself as a franchise QB. He does his lead by example thing, which was fine a few years back, but is now largely ignored IMO.

If you are going to be a top-tier QB, you gotta talk it as much as walk it, and demand from the other leaders on the team to follow your lead or get the hell out. Russel doesn't seem to have it in him to do that. There are times he actually appears intimidated by the other players. I never see that from the likes of Brady, Rodgers, or even the younger Dak.

I'm hoping 2017 gives us a more arrogant and demanding Russel Wilson. When we won the Super Bowl we had such a dominant run game and defense he didn't have to be. Now we do and he isn't delivering in that regard.

 

[scutterhawk]

Sioux,

It isn't 'rumor' to point out that almost every great defense that had to prop up a weak offense resented that offense.

What is weird is you think it would be different here.

Remove the reality that your contention was that the defensive players had no issue with Bevell and then Sherman himself, one of the mouthpieces of the defense, started calling him out.

, just an observation.

"Just An Observation" eh? IF "Mouthpiece" Sherman is calling out Bevell for ONE bad Play-Call, he needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, and consider that he and the rest of the Defense were unable to hold Brady from mounting a 10 point come-back.
Like it or not, he has his SHARE of the blame for that loss.
"Prop Up A Weak Offense" by skunking the opposition's Offenses...Like they did with Manning. 43 to 8, or SAY NOTHING IN PUBLIC against your Teammates or Coaches, as this is not an attribute.

 

[mrt144]

I'm hoping 2017 gives us a more arrogant and demanding Russel Wilson. When we won the Super Bowl we had such a dominant run game and defense he didn't have to be. Now we do and he isn't delivering in that regard.

There's only marginal gains to be made by Wilson - in aggregate how much better can be? Situationally he could be better but when you start working through the implications that would have on the aggregate rate its comical - 70% completion rate? 9 Y/A? 4% Sack rate? 45 TDs? If he makes three or four more completions per game it kinda starts morphing into GOAT territory.

Not saying it can't be done but...well...it's lofty.

And fundamentally, yes, RW really needs to cover for the team more given his salary outlay. On the other hand, the team can't be predicated on the belief that he wholly will at almost all the time.

 

[WmHBonney]

You know what helps people get over things? An apology. And possibly being put in the stocks and enduring rotten fruits and vegetables being thrown at them. There's never been a tour of contrition by Bevell.

Bevell is like the golden child that shits the bed and then blames the cat for it.

1. Maybe Bevell and Pete don't think they need to apologize for a play that they thought would work because the statistics and formation packages backed them up?

2. Bevell could rent out KING 5 studio and publicly flog himself on live TV like the albino dude from The Da Vinci Code and you guys still couldn't let this go. 100 years from now when Anguish's great great great grandkids run the forum, there will still be Blame Bevell threads.

In the aftermath of the game, both Pete and Bevell took responsibility for the play call. They thought it would work and it didn't. Reasons for why it didn't are well documented and discussed.

Maybe Tharold Simon should apologize for being destroyed in the 2nd half of that game. Should Kearse apologize for getting bitched by Browner on his rub route?

How hard is it to make the decision to give the ball to the most powerful runningback in the league against a gassed defense on the 1 friggin yard line on 2nd and goal?

THIS x 1000
You run with what got ya there. It doesn't matter if the other team is expecting it. Beastmode would have taken it in. Everyone in the damn stadium and everyone watching it on TV knew who was going to get the ball. Everyone except Bevell. He had to prove how smart he was. NOT.

 

[brimsalabim]

In the aftermath of the game, both Pete and Bevell took responsibility for the play call.

When did Bevell officially say it was his fault? Not saying he didnt but I sure dont remember that. I remember him saying Lockette didnt go to the ball hard enough (thats why he should have never been involved in the play to begin with), but never saying it was is own fault and owning up to it.

He took responsibility for making the play call. He didn't apologize for it and he shouldn't. He thought it would work and it would have if the 3 guys involved would have executed it properly - Wilson, Lockette, Kearse. Of the 3, Kearse was the biggest culprit as he totally lost his battle, allowing Butler to have a clear route to the pass.

We also gave a former member of our legion of boom ample time to read the play and adjust the defense to it.

 

[Seahawks Guy]

I just don't get why anyone would blame Bevell for what was clearly the fault of execution of the play.

 

[seabowl]

I just don't get why anyone would blame Bevell for what was clearly the fault of execution of the play.

Sorry but this thread wasn't meant to be about just one play but the entire portfolio of plays that Bevell has called. My one question to anyone that defends Bevell is:

WHY HASNT ANOTHER TEAM OFFERED BEVELL A JOB, COLLEGE INCLUDED?

 

[HAWKAMANIA]

Discontent? You're kidding? Who has expressed their discontent with Bevell other than RS?

 

[Jville]

The purpose of the OP is very transparent and dishonest.

It is but the latest installment of a series of campaign attacks with more to come.

 

[Siouxhawk]

The purpose of the OP is very transparent and dishonest.

It is but the latest installment of a series of campaign attacks with more to come.

With Bevell in charge of the offense, the Hawks win their second Lombardi within 3 years. Anyone have a problem with that?

 

[adeltaY]

our offense just doesn't compare to those of teams like the Pats, Broncos w healthy Manning.

LOL, I'm sorry, but this struck me as very funny....."The Broncos With A Healthy Manning"....Like a 43 to 8 "Healthy Manning"?
Lots of folks believing that Bevell is the main culprit, are denying some very pertinent facts, Facts like; Bevell having to design plays that has to include the shortcomings and brain-farts of a crappy O-Line....Having to account for stunts, & Blitzes.... Having to work around Running plays WITH INJURED RB's....All this, with a Quarterback that sometimes has to scrap a play, and improvise, because the play breaks down, and his Receivers couldn't get open.
ALL of the Best Offensive Coordinators can, and DO make mistakes....Bevell is no different.
It's also a possibility that we could bring in another OC, and things get worse too.
Just because some fans get pissed, Pete should just can Bevell?

Yup, those Broncos. They were consistently great from 2012 to 2014. It's not every week they had to face the greatest defense of all time. That would be like me trying to discredit the LoB because of the fourth quarter of 49 and calling them chokers without acknowledging any injuries. The Broncos were out Harris and Miller, among others, in 48 after all.

Injuries devastated the offense this year, in combination with the awful OL. The problem is. even when Wilson returned to close to full health, the offense was still crap. Rawls showed toward seasons end he could do great, but the run game was still very inconsistent. Pathetic against the cards first half and then explode for four TDs in the second. IDK, you just watch the Falcons divisional game where they had receivers running wide open what seemed like every other play and have to wonder why we can't get some more of that in our offense.

 

[Smellyman]

This isn't made up Bevell sucks in the first half and has a set of plays he goes through before deviating. There is a reason the Hawks are a "second half" team and it has far more to do with the script ending than it does with game start time. It also isn't made up that there is still animosity at Bevell for that call. Now whether more blame should be leveled at Cable for taking pick after pick and making them trash is open to debate but Bevell should have been canned after that super bowl. There just isn't a way to come back from that on the same team and not have rifts open.

When RW goes off script and saves the day in the 4th like he has so many times. Bevell's script not so good. When he was hurt last year it couldn't be done as much.

Jut think how much discontent would be with this team if an average qb was at the helm. The O would be a trainwreck and the D would be less than happy

 

[Smellyman]

Throughout history of the NFL, whenever you have a world beating defense that is required to win the games repeatedly in spite of a toothless offense, you get resentment.

This happened with the great Baltimore teams, it happened with the Dungy led Bucs and it is happening here.

I saw this train coming the moment this team decided that Kam, a linchpin of the defense, that had played HURT to keep us in a playoff game - was essentially spurned.

But for several years we saw one of the best defenses keep us in games even though we had one of worst scoring and worst RZ offenses in the league.

At some point, that was going to wear thin. And with the amount of money invested in some of the offensive players - it isn't a lack of commitment to the offense ....just a lack of ability with it.

Ultimately that falls on Bevell.

It isn't blame. His job is to produce with the offense and ultimately he underperforms. That is not blame but the CAUSE of the problem.

The team adjusts to it and sometimes overcomes, but it is like racing a car with one of those undersized spares on one side. At some point the lack of effectiveness on that side is going to affect your ability to finish the race, and that is what happened.

I suspect Sherman is not alone. It will start to pop out how frustrated the defensive players are with the offense even after removing Sherman - and you will hear it from more players.

It is human nature to be upset when you bust your tail to keep the boat upright and someone else is barely doing anything. Or consistently falling short.

It isn't blame when you point out that Bevell holds this team back. It is the REASON.

You do realize that those statements are not true, right?

Offensive Points/Game Rank
2012 - 9
2013 - 8
2014 - 9
2015 - 8
2016 - 17

Offensive Efficiency (DVOA)
2012 - 4
2013 - 7
2014 - 5
2015 - 1
2016 - 17

As far as investment, the last 2 or 3 years have been about 60% defense/40% offense in terms of cap dollars even with Wilson and Baldwin getting paid. The defense has 7 guys with big contracts whereas the offense has 3.

Amazing what happens when a qb that saves his bacon so much all of a sudden can't improvise any more.

 

[nash72]

"Just An Observation" eh? IF "Mouthpiece" Sherman is calling out Bevell for ONE bad Play-Call, he needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, and consider that he and the rest of the Defense were unable to hold Brady from mounting a 10 point come-back.
Like it or not, he has his SHARE of the blame for that loss.
"Prop Up A Weak Offense" by skunking the opposition's Offenses...Like they did with Manning. 43 to 8, or SAY NOTHING IN PUBLIC against your Teammates or Coaches, as this is not an attribute.

Calling out the secondary and throwing blame towards them for not performing in SB49 is kind of crazy. They were all hurt. Every single one of them. Sherman was out there basically playing with one arm. I applaud their performance rather than berating it. They manned up and played when lesser guys probably wouldnt have. The lack of pass rush was the biggest cause of giving up those points anyways.

 

[nash72]

I just don't get why anyone would blame Bevell for what was clearly the fault of execution of the play.

Because the play call was horrible. It was a designed play to use our worst player on the biggest stage. Why would somebody do that? Sadly I knew they were going to do something stupid, but I never dreamed it would be that bad.