"If Michael Bennett wants to sit for anthem..."

[TestMo1337]

Sending an e-mail is forcing your stance into everyone's inbox. No one protesting during the anthem is forcing the cameras on them. They know the American public & American media loves a spectacle and this is such a spectacle.

And protesting the national anthem and gaining media attention is forcing your protest onto everyone who is at the stadium, is tuned into the game, or watches the tired coverage of those protests on the news.

At least with an e-mail, I can choose whether to read it or not, and just delete it and likely never hear about it over and over again, unlike these anthem protests, which I have to see and hear constantly when I turn on a game, or listen to sports talk, etc.

The better comparison would be wearing colors of a non-Seahawks team on Blue Friday in downtown Seattle. Someone wearing non-Seahawks colors/gear attracts more attention than someone wearing their normal work wear. Protests are meant to spark attention from the majority.

The accurate analogy would be if someone walked around downtown Seattle on blue Friday wearing a shirt that said "Seahawks suck" or "12s are dumb fans". Sure, you have every right to do so. But you'll be sure to get a lot of people upset.

Pence just protested the NFL. Some protests are better than other but they are meant to spark attention. It also means that if you protest, you are willing to take the hit if it hurts you.

Yup. And nothing wrong with that.

Nobody's arguing the purpose of a protest and the right to protest. I think we're all in agreement there.

The Anthem is rarely on TV during a broadcast and only because of the media attention given to it and the outrage by the people that take issue does the media continue to cover it. I don't stand during the anthem when I watch at home; unless I'm already at my seat during the game I do what I'm already doing (waiting in line, taking a piss or walking to my seats). Trump forced this into the global spotlight when it made the NFL react.This was a local story and very small until Trump told the NFL what to do. That's incredibly poor judgement.

Saying that "I agree they can protest but I don't like where they're protesting" is the largest part of the issue. No one believes that police should be more brutal to one segment of the country than the other. That is the point they are trying to make a stand against. No one should be against equality.

You saying "the NFL player protesting during the anthem" = "Seahawks Suck" on a t-shirt shows that you have already made up your mind. The Players are not protesting the anthem or America. They have all very clearly stated that they are protesting during the anthem to draw the most attention to police inequality.

 

[StoneCold]

We live in a world where even a jerk like Jerry Jones, who poses for pictures with strippers and hires felons and tells hard working Americans they must worship the flag the same way he does, can say whatever he wants without fear of reprisal from the government, but will have to own the consequences of his speech and actions. Just as the players do.

I feel the least American thing going on in this is telling others to display their patriotism in a way that they say is acceptable. To thine own self be true.

It's less about displaying patriotism, and more about showing respect

And I would put "showing disrespect for your country and flag" up near the top on the list of "un-American things".

What if you felt what your country was doing was wrong?

EDIT to Add: Not everyone sees it as disrespectful. Many people, including vets, have stated they don't see it as disrespect, so that angle is really about an opinion not a fact.

Except the country isn't "doing" anything. What you think they're "doing" is merely perception. Last I checked, the country (i.e. our governing bodies) enacted laws to ensure equal rights for all. The laws are there. For example, workplace discrimination is illegal.

So for you to say the country is doing something wrong is...well...wrong.

No, not everyone sees it as disrespectful. But most do. That's like me flipping you the bird and saying that I'm just stretching out my middle finger as a sign of unity.

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think it's all perception.

This is an emotional subject and I hate that it gets into finger pointing and group identification and vilification of the other side. We all have opinions and a right to hold that view.

Go Hawks!

 

[Mindsink]

The Anthem is rarely on TV during a broadcast and only because of the media attention given to it and the outrage by the people that take issue does the media continue to cover it. I don't stand during the anthem when I watch at home; unless I'm already at my seat during the game I do what I'm already doing (waiting in line, taking a piss or walking to my seats). Trump forced this into the global spotlight when it made the NFL react.This was a local story and very small until Trump told the NFL what to do. That's incredibly poor judgement.

Do you not see the difference between watching a national anthem on TV versus being at (or part of) the event? I never stand for the anthem in front of my TV. When I'm in a stadium, and the announcer says "please rise and remove your hats..." while there are military personnel on the field with flags and a performing artist about to sing our national anthem, I do so, like most people.

What Trump did to ignite the fire is a whole other topic.

Saying that "I agree they can protest but I don't like where they're protesting" is the largest part of the issue. No one believes that police should be more brutal to one segment of the country than the other. That is the point they are trying to make a stand against. No one should be against equality.

Except that has nothing to do with equality, and everything to do with reality. Reality does not necessitate equality of outcome. Ever notice that the vast majority of those who are wrongfully killed by police are men? Why are so few women killed by police? Where's the outrage for that disparity? Because I can assure you that disparity is larger than black/white. It's this kind of silly logic used to apply to disproportionate percentages of [insert group of people] in ANYTHING.

You saying "the NFL player protesting during the anthem" = "Seahawks Suck" on a t-shirt shows that you have already made up your mind. The Players are not protesting the anthem or America. They have all very clearly stated that they are protesting during the anthem to draw the most attention to police inequality.

The Players are not protesting America? Kapernick would disagree with you.

I know what the players are protesting... and they're doing so by engaging in an act of disrespect. If it was not an act of disrespect, then nobody would be angry or offended, and this protest would be meaningless.

 

[Mindsink]

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think it's all perception.

This is an emotional subject and I hate that it gets into finger pointing and group identification and vilification of the other side. We all have opinions and a right to hold that view.

Go Hawks!

And that is the crux of this divide. You just dismiss it as "agree to disagree" and the conversation moves nowhere. It's not just you and me, but all across America. Hardly anybody wants to have honest conversations about it. I was hoping that's what this forum would allow us to do, because it seems like there are a lot of intelligent folks on this board capable of having civil discourse (yourself included).

I don't think anyone disagrees that a black man would be more likely to raise suspicion to a police officer than say, a white woman. But people are screaming "this needs to stop", "Equality now", and are not really discussing the question of WHY without putting a generic "racism" stamp as the end-all be-all answer.

 

[StoneCold]

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think it's all perception.

This is an emotional subject and I hate that it gets into finger pointing and group identification and vilification of the other side. We all have opinions and a right to hold that view.

Go Hawks!

And that is the crux of this divide. You just dismiss it as "agree to disagree" and the conversation moves nowhere. It's not just you and me, but all across America. Hardly anybody wants to have honest conversations about it. I was hoping that's what this forum would allow us to do, because it seems like there are a lot of intelligent folks on this board capable of having civil discourse (yourself included).

I don't think anyone disagrees that a black man would be more likely to raise suspicion to a police officer than say, a white woman. But people are screaming "this needs to stop", "Equality now", and are not really discussing the question of WHY without putting a generic "racism" stamp as the end-all be-all answer.

I say agree to disagree as I don't think I can change your mind and I know you can't change mine. As for "people screaming" I see a different conversation there as well. I think if you were to have a one on one conversation with Michael or Doug you would hear that they recognize there are contributing factors to this issue in the black community. It's not a problem with one cause and one solution. From no one that I read do they expect equality now or even equality of outcome. But they do want a fair chance. There is a part of the problem that is based on racism, on people being prejudged, and in some cases it ends up with some one dying. That is what needs to stop and why they are protesting. If you don't see that that is part of this problem then we don't have any common ground. I will absolutely grant you it's not the only problem, and the other issues of crime, family, poverty and opportunity that all contribute to making it a difficult problem for law enforcement, but training, raising awareness and prosecuting where appropriate needs to happen.

 

[Mindsink]

You may want to temper that "most Americans" statement a bit.

Interesting how you link an article that references many different polls, then cherry pick one particular poll that supports your statement.

If you read the entire article, the author summarizes the findings...

Despite the many conflicting poll results, we can say a few things with confidence:

A plurality of Americans don’t like the NFL protests — at least if they aren’t told what the players’ goals are.

But Americans generally dislike protests involving the flag or anthem, so it’s not clear how much that might affect public opinion in this case.

Most Americans think racism is a problem in the abstract, but people are less likely to support the Black Lives Matters movement, which aims to stop police violence against African-Americans.

Americans are broadly supportive of the importance of free speech in general, though opinions are more muddled when people are asked about kneeling during the anthem in particular.

 

[pmedic920]

Not sure about the validity of this.
I’m sure we’ll hear more very soon.

If it’s true the NFL owners get much respect from me.

While I agree with the issue, I strongly disagree with methods being used to highlight it.
Personally I feel like it’s driving the wedge deeper.
Edit:
I think they are alienating a sector that they would be better served by embracing. Can’t say I have a clue as to how that could be accomplished but I do think it’s key to initiating any real change.

 

[hawk45]

While I agree with the issue, I strongly disagree with methods being used to highlight it.
Personally I feel like it’s driving the wedge deeper.
Edit:
I think they are alienating a sector that they would be better served by embracing. Can’t say I have a clue as to how that could be accomplished but I do think it’s key to initiating any real change.

BLM, and Kaepernick, have no interest in embracing anything. Read the BLM literature on their website (you have to dig a little to get past the fluffy stuff and on to their actual policy suggestions). They think the democracy is fatally flawed. The disrespect for the flag isn't incidental or misunderstood, it's deliberate. They think the country is more bad than good.

The Bennetts of the world mean well but are way too unfocused to do anything but the good old "start the conversation" or "raise awareness." Bennett hasn't cast a ballot his entire time in Washington by the way, that's how action-oriented he is.

The rest of the NFL players just got baited into disrespecting the flag as a way to defy the president. They're not committed to anything.

In the end this will all die down, the NFL will permanently reset at lower levels of viewership, and it will have been nothing but divisive. Nobody breathing has been made aware of police perception in black communities who wasn't aware before. The only thing anyone learned is that NFL players think the flag is a great chain to yank for social justice.

 

[kidhawk]

Bennett hasn't cast a ballot his entire time in Washington by the way, that's how action-oriented he is.

You can't just say something like this without some reliable information to back it up. Perhaps not so coincidentally, Bennett is a resident of Hawaii, not Washington.

 

[hawk45]

Bennett hasn't cast a ballot his entire time in Washington by the way, that's how action-oriented he is.

You can't just say something like this without some reliable information to back it up. Perhaps not so coincidentally, Bennett is a resident of Hawaii, not Washington.

He made Hawaii his residence in 2015 but...I actually can't find if he was ever a WA resident now that I look. Thing is I heard this on talk radio and should have known better.

Oof.

 

[kidhawk]

Not sure about the validity of this.
I’m sure we’ll hear more very soon.

If it’s true the NFL owners get much respect from me.

While I agree with the issue, I strongly disagree with methods being used to highlight it.
Personally I feel like it’s driving the wedge deeper.
Edit:
I think they are alienating a sector that they would be better served by embracing. Can’t say I have a clue as to how that could be accomplished but I do think it’s key to initiating any real change.

It's authentic. Goodell has written a memo which I'll quote and link:

"We live in a country that can feel very divided. Sports, and especially the NFL, brings people together and lets them set aside those divisions, at least for a few hours. The current dispute over the National Anthem is threatening to erode the unifying power of our game, and is now dividing us, and our players, from many fans across the country.

"I'm very proud of our players and owners who have done the hard work over the past year to listen, understand and attempt to address the underlying issues within their communities. At our September committee meetings, we heard directly from several players about why these issues are so important to them and how we can support their work. And last week, we met with the leadership of the NFLPA and more players to advance the dialogue.

"Like many of our fans, we believe that everyone should stand for the National Anthem. It is an important moment in our game. We want to honor our flag and our country, and our fans expect that of us. We also care deeply about our players and respect their opinions and concerns about critical social issues. The controversy over the Anthem is a barrier to having honest conversations and making real progress on the underlying issues. We need to move past this controversy, and we want to do that together with our players.

"Building on many discussions with clubs and players, we have worked to develop a plan that we will review with you at next week's League meeting. This would include such elements as an in-season platform to promote the work of our players on these core issues, and that will help to promote positive change in our country. We want to ensure that any work at the League level is consistent with the work that each club is doing in its own community, and that we dedicate a platform that can enable these initiatives to succeed. Additionally, we will continue the unprecedented dialogue with our players.

"I expect and look forward to a full and open discussion of these issues when we meet next week in New York. Everyone involved in the game needs to come together on a path forward to continue to be a force for good within our communities, protect the game, and preserve our relationship with fans throughout the country. The NFL is at its best when we ourselves are unified. In that spirit, let's resolve that next week we will meet this challenge in a unified and positive way."

[urltargetblank]http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000859541/article/goodell-issues-memo-to-teams-on-national-anthem[/urltargetblank]

 

[Mindsink]

I say agree to disagree as I don't think I can change your mind and I know you can't change mine. As for "people screaming" I see a different conversation there as well. I think if you were to have a one on one conversation with Michael or Doug you would hear that they recognize there are contributing factors to this issue in the black community. It's not a problem with one cause and one solution. From no one that I read do they expect equality now or even equality of outcome. But they do want a fair chance. There is a part of the problem that is based on racism, on people being prejudged, and in some cases it ends up with some one dying. That is what needs to stop and why they are protesting. If you don't see that that is part of this problem then we don't have any common ground. I will absolutely grant you it's not the only problem, and the other issues of crime, family, poverty and opportunity that all contribute to making it a difficult problem for law enforcement, but training, raising awareness and prosecuting where appropriate needs to happen.

It's not about changing minds. It's about trying to understand the problem.

Again, with what Bennett or Doug is saying... Their points would be 100% valid IF the premise is valid, and that is (and I'll use your words here), that they "don't get a fair chance". But that simply isn't true.

Everyone doesn't get dealt the same cards, and they don't need to, as long as everyone gets cards. And we have laws in place in this country that makes sure everyone does (see my previous reference to anti-discrimination laws in the workplace).

Regarding the whole concept of racism and prejudice. Let's take a step back here and acknowledge that first, yes it exists. And second, it is normal human behavior and people are judged every day for a myriad of different things -- your age, the clothes you wear, the way you speak, and yes, the race or culture you represent. Sometimes those judgements work in your favor, and other times, they don't.

 

[Mindsink]

BLM, and Kaepernick, have no interest in embracing anything. Read the BLM literature on their website (you have to dig a little to get past the fluffy stuff and on to their actual policy suggestions). They think the democracy is fatally flawed. The disrespect for the flag isn't incidental or misunderstood, it's deliberate. They think the country is more bad than good.

The Bennetts of the world mean well but are way too unfocused to do anything but the good old "start the conversation" or "raise awareness." Bennett hasn't cast a ballot his entire time in Washington by the way, that's how action-oriented he is.

The rest of the NFL players just got baited into disrespecting the flag as a way to defy the president. They're not committed to anything.

In the end this will all die down, the NFL will permanently reset at lower levels of viewership, and it will have been nothing but divisive. Nobody breathing has been made aware of police perception in black communities who wasn't aware before. The only thing anyone learned is that NFL players think the flag is a great chain to yank for social justice.

Spot on.

 

[StoneCold]

I say agree to disagree as I don't think I can change your mind and I know you can't change mine. As for "people screaming" I see a different conversation there as well. I think if you were to have a one on one conversation with Michael or Doug you would hear that they recognize there are contributing factors to this issue in the black community. It's not a problem with one cause and one solution. From no one that I read do they expect equality now or even equality of outcome. But they do want a fair chance. There is a part of the problem that is based on racism, on people being prejudged, and in some cases it ends up with some one dying. That is what needs to stop and why they are protesting. If you don't see that that is part of this problem then we don't have any common ground. I will absolutely grant you it's not the only problem, and the other issues of crime, family, poverty and opportunity that all contribute to making it a difficult problem for law enforcement, but training, raising awareness and prosecuting where appropriate needs to happen.

It's not about changing minds. It's about trying to understand the problem.

Again, with what Bennett or Doug is saying... Their points would be 100% valid IF the premise is valid, and that is (and I'll use your words here), that they "don't get a fair chance". But that simply isn't true.

Everyone doesn't get dealt the same cards, and they don't need to, as long as everyone gets cards. And we have laws in place in this country that makes sure everyone does (see my previous reference to anti-discrimination laws in the workplace).

Regarding the whole concept of racism and prejudice. Let's take a step back here and acknowledge that first, yes it exists. And second, it is normal human behavior and people are judged every day for a myriad of different things -- your age, the clothes you wear, the way you speak, and yes, the race or culture you represent. Sometimes those judgements work in your favor, and other times, they don't.

And here we come back to the heart of why this discussion goes around in circles. I see a problem, and you say I'm just imagining it. This protest and this issue is about changing minds and hearts. The anti discrimination laws are a good thing and we've come a long way from the days of lynchings and cross burning, but in many ways those things have been pushed under ground. The law says you can't discriminate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Discrimination can be difficult to prove. The resume gets put on the bottom of the pile. Is that discrimination or because he/she wasn't qualified. That's a very subjective question and nearly impossible to prove in a court. But it does happen and that's why we need, as a country, to continue having this discussion.

 

[sutz]

And here we come back to the heart of why this discussion goes around in circles. I see a problem, and you say I'm just imagining it. This protest and this issue is about changing minds and hearts. The anti discrimination laws are a good thing and we've come a long way from the days of lynchings and cross burning, but in many ways those things have been pushed under ground. The law says you can't discriminate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Discrimination can be difficult to prove. The resume gets put on the bottom of the pile. Is that discrimination or because he/she wasn't qualified. That's a very subjective question and nearly impossible to prove in a court. But it does happen and that's why we need, as a country, to continue having this discussion.

And I would add that the demand that someone go somewhere else and protest where it doesn't bother anybody is kind of the whole point. It works great for those who insist the problem doesn't exist, but for those who do see a problem it is, yes, a form of oppression and of denying their ability to speak out.

The whole purpose of protesting is to bother people enough that they pay attention. As far as football players go, I still don't see why their actions should bother anybody. They are not interrupting play nor are they demanding that anybody join them. Forcing people to "respect the flag" kind of destroys the concept of real patriotism, don't you think. That puts us on the road to 1984. Either way, I'll still watch my Seahawks. If people choose to "sacrifice" their fandom over this issue, I can't change that. I won't.

 

[pmedic920]

I say agree to disagree as I don't think I can change your mind and I know you can't change mine. As for "people screaming" I see a different conversation there as well. I think if you were to have a one on one conversation with Michael or Doug you would hear that they recognize there are contributing factors to this issue in the black community. It's not a problem with one cause and one solution. From no one that I read do they expect equality now or even equality of outcome. But they do want a fair chance. There is a part of the problem that is based on racism, on people being prejudged, and in some cases it ends up with some one dying. That is what needs to stop and why they are protesting. If you don't see that that is part of this problem then we don't have any common ground. I will absolutely grant you it's not the only problem, and the other issues of crime, family, poverty and opportunity that all contribute to making it a difficult problem for law enforcement, but training, raising awareness and prosecuting where appropriate needs to happen.

It's not about changing minds. It's about trying to understand the problem.

Again, with what Bennett or Doug is saying... Their points would be 100% valid IF the premise is valid, and that is (and I'll use your words here), that they "don't get a fair chance". But that simply isn't true.

Everyone doesn't get dealt the same cards, and they don't need to, as long as everyone gets cards. And we have laws in place in this country that makes sure everyone does (see my previous reference to anti-discrimination laws in the workplace).

Regarding the whole concept of racism and prejudice. Let's take a step back here and acknowledge that first, yes it exists. And second, it is normal human behavior and people are judged every day for a myriad of different things -- your age, the clothes you wear, the way you speak, and yes, the race or culture you represent. Sometimes those judgements work in your favor, and other times, they don't.

And here we come back to the heart of why this discussion goes around in circles. I see a problem, and you say I'm just imagining it. This protest and this issue is about changing minds and hearts. The anti discrimination laws are a good thing and we've come a long way from the days of lynchings and cross burning, but in many ways those things have been pushed under ground. The law says you can't discriminate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Discrimination can be difficult to prove. The resume gets put on the bottom of the pile. Is that discrimination or because he/she wasn't qualified. That's a very subjective question and nearly impossible to prove in a court. But it does happen and that's why we need, as a country, to continue having this discussion.

StoneCold.

There absolutely is a problem, many actually.

My issue with this whole form of the protest is this.

Very few are even talking about the whole “police thing” in regards to this “protest”

The narrative has shifted to the disrespect of theFlag, Trump’s commentary, and the NLF’s stance.

The initial few knees taken opened a dialogue but in my opinion that ship has sailed, and what’s happening now is counterproductive.

They are causing a wider divide than existed before they started.

This is a harsh statement but the people they need on their side is white middle America, and these are mainly the people they are pushing away.

That how I see it anyway.

They can say they mean no disrespect all they want but “white middle America” sees it as complete disrespect.

The fact that our Flag flies freely is the very thing that gives them the freedom to protest. Plenty of people, people of all races died to give them that freedom, and I see it as them pissing on the graves.

I don’t know if there’s a hidden agenda or not but if they want to truly effect change, they need to unite people not drive a wedge between them.

 

[pmedic920]

And here we come back to the heart of why this discussion goes around in circles. I see a problem, and you say I'm just imagining it. This protest and this issue is about changing minds and hearts. The anti discrimination laws are a good thing and we've come a long way from the days of lynchings and cross burning, but in many ways those things have been pushed under ground. The law says you can't discriminate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Discrimination can be difficult to prove. The resume gets put on the bottom of the pile. Is that discrimination or because he/she wasn't qualified. That's a very subjective question and nearly impossible to prove in a court. But it does happen and that's why we need, as a country, to continue having this discussion.

And I would add that the demand that someone go somewhere else and protest where it doesn't bother anybody is kind of the whole point. It works great for those who insist the problem doesn't exist, but for those who do see a problem it is, yes, a form of oppression and of denying their ability to speak out.

The whole purpose of protesting is to bother people enough that they pay attention. As far as football players go, I still don't see why their actions should bother anybody. They are not interrupting play nor are they demanding that anybody join them. Forcing people to "respect the flag" kind of destroys the concept of real patriotism, don't you think. That puts us on the road to 1984. Either way, I'll still watch my Seahawks. If people choose to "sacrifice" their fandom over this issue, I can't change that. I won't.

I “get” what you’re saying but I watched a couple hours of sports TV this morning, (sports center, NFL Live, NFLN) and all I heard about was stuff about the “protest”, J. Jones, Trump Tweets, the NFL owners etc.

I heard NOTHING about the original alleged “problem”.

Yes in terms of bothering people the protest is effective but at this point nobody (or very few) are talking about the “problem”.

How is this going to help effect change?

 

[RolandDeschain]

Kirkland sports pub says NFL protests affecting business’ bottom line

Posted 12:07 AM, October 2, 2017, by q13katie and Katie Boer, Updated at 12:09AM, October 2, 2017


KIRKLAND, Wash. — Dub Pub is a sports bar in Kirkland which caters to the college crowd. In the past, they’ve always had large, standing room only crowds on Seahawks game days, but that wasn’t the case on Sunday.

Protests during the national anthem continued into week four of the NFL's regular season. At least a half a dozen customers stood inside the Dub Pub sports bar in Kirkland watching, and to some extent, still supporting the nine players sitting on the Seahawks sideline Sunday.

Dub Pub owners don't mind what stance customer's take on the protests. It's what you don't see that has them worried--more people.

"We've had customers that have decided not to come in," said co-owner Lee Dumas. "It's unfortunate because a lot of us make our livelihood off of these sports."

http://q13fox.com/2017/10/02/kirkland-s ... ttom-line/

I used to live literally right next to the Dub Pub a few years ago. I liked the place then. Pretty decent food, and service, and tons of TVs.

I went there for game day with a friend in town from Philly a few weeks ago and we waited 47 minutes before someone came by (this was HOURS before the Seahawks game and the place was a quarter full), and they only came by after we complained to the bartender twice. Their food menu was also massively more limited now than it used to be.

It took over 15 minutes to get our drinks. Again, place was not busy and the servers did not appear to be overworked.

We walked up to the bar, closed out our tab, and went to another bar nearby (Lucky 7) and watched the game there with much better service.

Dub Pub's lost revenue is likely due to their service being ass more than anything happening in politics or the NFL.

I hope one of the Dub Pub's owners/employees sees my post. It has been MANY YEARS since I've had to wait that long for service anywhere.

 

[StoneCold]

I say agree to disagree as I don't think I can change your mind and I know you can't change mine. As for "people screaming" I see a different conversation there as well. I think if you were to have a one on one conversation with Michael or Doug you would hear that they recognize there are contributing factors to this issue in the black community. It's not a problem with one cause and one solution. From no one that I read do they expect equality now or even equality of outcome. But they do want a fair chance. There is a part of the problem that is based on racism, on people being prejudged, and in some cases it ends up with some one dying. That is what needs to stop and why they are protesting. If you don't see that that is part of this problem then we don't have any common ground. I will absolutely grant you it's not the only problem, and the other issues of crime, family, poverty and opportunity that all contribute to making it a difficult problem for law enforcement, but training, raising awareness and prosecuting where appropriate needs to happen.

It's not about changing minds. It's about trying to understand the problem.

Again, with what Bennett or Doug is saying... Their points would be 100% valid IF the premise is valid, and that is (and I'll use your words here), that they "don't get a fair chance". But that simply isn't true.

Everyone doesn't get dealt the same cards, and they don't need to, as long as everyone gets cards. And we have laws in place in this country that makes sure everyone does (see my previous reference to anti-discrimination laws in the workplace).

Regarding the whole concept of racism and prejudice. Let's take a step back here and acknowledge that first, yes it exists. And second, it is normal human behavior and people are judged every day for a myriad of different things -- your age, the clothes you wear, the way you speak, and yes, the race or culture you represent. Sometimes those judgements work in your favor, and other times, they don't.

And here we come back to the heart of why this discussion goes around in circles. I see a problem, and you say I'm just imagining it. This protest and this issue is about changing minds and hearts. The anti discrimination laws are a good thing and we've come a long way from the days of lynchings and cross burning, but in many ways those things have been pushed under ground. The law says you can't discriminate, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Discrimination can be difficult to prove. The resume gets put on the bottom of the pile. Is that discrimination or because he/she wasn't qualified. That's a very subjective question and nearly impossible to prove in a court. But it does happen and that's why we need, as a country, to continue having this discussion.

StoneCold.

There absolutely is a problem, many actually.

My issue with this whole form of the protest is this.

Very few are even talking about the whole “police thing” in regards to this “protest”

The narrative has shifted to the disrespect of theFlag, Trump’s commentary, and the NLF’s stance.

The initial few knees taken opened a dialogue but in my opinion that ship has sailed, and what’s happening now is counterproductive.

They are causing a wider divide than existed before they started.

This is a harsh statement but the people they need on their side is white middle America, and these are mainly the people they are pushing away.

That how I see it anyway.

They can say they mean no disrespect all they want but “white middle America” sees it as complete disrespect.

The fact that our Flag flies freely is the very thing that gives them the freedom to protest. Plenty of people, people of all races died to give them that freedom, and I see it as them pissing on the graves.

I don’t know if there’s a hidden agenda or not but if they want to truly effect change, they need to unite people not drive a wedge between them.

The current talking head narrative is being driven by Trump, so yes, I agree that what we see on TV is the anthem/disrespect angle. I don't expect it to last as we live in the 24 hour news cycle. They, the players and others that are working behind the scenes, will need to put forth some reasonable specifics that can be worked on.

Back in the 60's most of white America disapproved of protests at lunch counters, so I don't know how important it is at this time to get their support. You will eventually, as most everyone looking back on that period thinks the lunch counter protest era was an important and necessary step.

I get that people see the anthem protest as disrespectful, but I would add there is some odd logic in the equation. People died fighting for the principles that flag stands for. One of those was the right to protest and even burning the flag has been upheld as a form of speech, and so is covered under the principles that people were fighting and dying for. One of the issues being highlighted by the protests is people dying at the hands of police. So I can see more than some validity from both sides, but in the end, for me, the right to protest, and especially this issue, outweighs the discomfort people feel about disrespecting the flag.

We may experience a deeper divide for a period of time, but I'm a hopeful person and can see 20 years or more down the road that we will be better off for the conversations and actions that come out of this moment in history.

 

[replicant]

Trump says 'about time' after NFL's Goodell calls on players to stand for anthem


President Trump said Wednesday it’s “about time” after NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell sent a letter to teams calling on players to "honor our flag" and stand for the national anthem.

“It is about time that Roger Goodell of the NFL is finally demanding that all players STAND for our great National Anthem – RESPECT OUR COUNTRY,” Trump tweeted early Wednesday.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10 ... nthem.html


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