Geno's Decision to Slide

HawkRiderFan

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I don't think he was scared to take a hit or made a business decision, I think he plain messed up. Bad decision that was part of a lot of things that went wrong. From my angle on the incomplete pass to Metcalf that forced us to settle for a FG I thought he had a wide open JSN in the middle, and in his site-line but he chose DK instead. He wasn't perfect on Sunday by any means, but with the screw ups around him we kinda needed him to be.
 

pittpnthrs

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I dont know how to answer that. But I will start with the fact that he is a QB, charged with throwing the ball. His day job isn't running around the field, evading tackles and fighting for extra yards. That's the expertise of a RB or WR (unless your name is Lamar Jackson).

If it was Payton Manning back there and he slid short of the sticks (because its Payton and he rarely runs), or if it was Brady, breaking the pocket and angling for the sticks, there isnt a universe where 90% of the fans wouldnt be saying ' God bless, what are you doing... get down'. And if he did come up short, do you think segnents of the fanbase would look at either of them as being cowards because they slid down thinking they 'd got the yardage? He'll no.

Both would get a pass because they're pocket passing qbs, something Geno certainly is, even if his ability to scramble is better than the guys i mentioned.

So no. Its NOT natively in the qbs wheelhouse to be more aware of the sticks when scrambling up the middle of the field on the random occassion they are doing so than the wrs and rbs who literally are doing it every play.

Your right in the aspect that the play itself isn't really a big deal, but somebody made a thread about it so we're talking about it. Your wrong thinking fans wouldn't be dissapointed if their QB slid early instead of fighting for that extra yard in a close game regardless of who he is. Manning and Brady weren't perfect or beyond criticism by their fans, so why is Geno? QB's fight for that extra yard all the time (Jones did so in that very game), especially in close games so i'm not sure where this idea that a slide was automatic by some people.
 

pittpnthrs

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Agree with most of that. Especially the last bit. It just seems impossible for there to be a logical, balanced debate about the guy BASED ON WHAT HE IS ACTUALLY DOING.

But instead, we have a qb who was the first to receive an MVP vote and in the same season, had folks wanting to move on from him if his contract extension number was anything more than 'middle of the pack'.

We have a guy who last year outperofrmed a dreadfull defense, and bottom 5 rushing attack and o line and got the team above .500 when they had no right to be, AND sets the NFL record for 4th qtr comebacks and he is somehow instead seen as 'part of the problem'. If he were part of the problem last year, we finish 5-12.

So i have to push back a bit on the 'equal fault on both sides' take. Because if you thought Geno was a borderline top 10 qb or better over the last 2 years and argued stubbornly that he was with a pocket full of evidence in your hands to show it (stats, records, MVP votes, comebacks, comp percentage, percentage complete of difficult throws, long ball accuracy, etc etc etc) you did so against a set of goalposts that moved everytime the ball went through. And why? Again. Nit becaise of anything he was ACTUALLY doing, but because of what he'd never done before getting here. And if it wasnt (isnt) that, its a slew of criticism PROVEN to be unfounded - like hes: slow to process plays (blatantly false), isnt clutch (blatantly false - NFL record proves that), is 'lucky' with his passes in that x many sboukd have been INTs ( a reference void of context at best, isnt a leader. Or that if he was franchise qb worthy, we'd have won more than 9 games a season under him.

So if you CONSTANTLY in the course of what coukd and sbould be a productive debate, have to push throuh arguments that are more based on personal bias, falsehoods, an obviously irrelevant past, but that are defended as if were fact, you can get to the point where you sound like a broken record... or Geno apologist.

Id wager if you look at the posts 95% of thise folks who denfend Geno avainst the above, they mostky reference the same facts about his game and his obvious skill st the position and in xs and os. Or, they defended the fundamental idea that a guy who'd sat in the system for a few years, held the board for some pretty good players in his past and who himself was a highly ranked recruit out of college (and for what? Arm, brains, football knowledge, accuracy) might be able to do good things in a system with reasonable support around him. And what happened? Exactly that.

Just as his play this year supports the evidence over the last 2 years that if the play and playcalling around him improved that he would as well.

So yeah. Pick apart his flaws. I mean the dude still sometimes is too confident in his first read and locks in on a wr.

He still is at times too slow to give up on collapsing pocket and instead stands in to take a sack or unnecessary big hit (the opposite of a business decision).

He does show an overconfidence in his arm and his ability to get the ball into absurdly tight spaces.

He seems to leave an open rusher free to clobber him at least once a game when he is responsible for the line calls.

And speaking of the above, how much blame is his for making incorrect adjustaments at times vs the play of the o-line?

Im saying... theres a lot to be critical of, but sliding short of the sticks last game and trying to throw it up as a red flag of some deeper flaw?

Thats not based on any logical analysis of what the dude is doing. Nor does it account for the inherent difficulty in making that play, as if ' all he had to to was just see where he was...' . Or 'if he wasnt making business decisions and was a real leader / elite / francbise qb' he would have lowered his sboukder or known better where he was. Ok. So forget he is near league leading in a few statistical categories and has literally been our offense this year (as he was last year and the year before) ... thats not enough to get a pass for a mistake. THOSE things dont matter. All the matters is that a leader , a REAL franchise QB would know when his ass is gonna hit the ground while judging a down marker 75 feet away, running at full tilt. Because EVERY time every other great qb does that they get the first down...

Right. No bias there.

Ozzy was right. I think a lot of this is a Russ thing for the most part and a 'I told you so' scenario. Most of the time that a person brings up something negative about Geno or stats that indicate he's hardly perfect (like the reference void of context for the passes that should have been intercepted as you put it) is because of the constant gushing over him that a lot of people do and frankly it's,,,,gross. You even went so far as to do it in this post whether it was on purpose or an automatic response. Even this thread is an example. The guy made a mistake and slid to soon. Sure it happens, but why can't some admit it was a mistake?

Nobody is saying Geno is playing bad or has played bad. I think some are just saying to calm down with the admiration a bit. How many times do we have to hear about his MVP vote, or his 4th quarter comeback record (one I can't take seriously because of all the ones Russ actually has), or whatever else he's done just so people can defend their opinion? It's as if some are saying no other QB could accomplish what Geno has. Theres always the 'Russ couldn't do it. Look at him now'. Well duh. Russ has been done for years, but the things Russ accomplished in his prime are mysteriously forgotten because people don't like him now.

Bottom line is we all know Geno has played good since stepping into the starters role, but some of us don't see him as the messiah like many others do. As well as he has played (and no doubt has improved), there's still old habits that remind us of our apprehensions. As well as he's played, there's still more to prove. To many, he's proven all he needs to.
 

pittpnthrs

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I have to say this also. Something that frustrates me a good deal is that I don't think we are going to see the fruits of Geno's play during his tenure. What I mean is that I would like to see the results of his good play with a good Oline and good defense. How far could he actually take the team? Can he win in the post season without those weaknesses? It's something I doubt will get to see because of the holes that need to be filled and his age that's a shame.
 

keasley45

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From a 'don't' kill the QB' perspective - I agree with some of your points.

However, in this case - it didn't look like he was in danger of being mangled - he could have waited the yard without getting broken in half.

And, apologies, but I just can't accept the fact that the QB doesn't need to know where the FD marker is. I've seen running QB's many times under pressure on the sideline hold the ball out over the marker. Hell that was Russ' signature move IMO.

So, basically the argument might be: Needs to know it when passing to someone else. Needs to know it when running to the outside. Doesn't need to know it when running up the middle? If it's just a visual indicator thing, I still can't really accept the fact that it could be that 'sesame street' - like if there was no visual aid, he's just lost?

Personally, I think it was a brain fart - I don't think he was actually intentionally avoiding contact. So, I guess unless we know which it was: a) avoiding contact or b) not knowing where the F he was - we could probably talk in circles all day.

If it's b) - that's stupid. If it's a) - I kinda get it.

I dont think Geno felt he needed to get down to avoid a hit. I think he slid, thinking his slide was sufficient to get him the yards.

First mistake.

Second, when you are running down the football field, you arent looking perpendicular to the sideline as you are doing it. Its in your peripheral vision unless you gkance over and its at an oblique angle always. So at 20 mph and at a good distance from the marker, unless its a deisgned run and you have it in your mind before the snap exactly ehat point you are running to, it is NOT easy to just find the hash that corrsponds to the 43.5 yardline or wbatever it was that was theine to gain. Its VERY easy to think you are on one yard msrker when you are on the other. Shoot, Refs do it a couple times a game... when they sre stationary, and have side judges helping them.

Its not a gimme. It wanst avoiding a hit (my opinion),.it looked like he was pretty confident he had it.

And he didnt.

Whether it was because he landed sooner in his slide than he thought he would, or he simply misjudged where he was, doesnt matter. he just missed it.
Ozzy was right. I think a lot of this is a Russ thing for the most part and a 'I told you so' scenario. Most of the time that a person brings up something negative about Geno or stats that indicate he's hardly perfect (like the reference void of context for the passes that should have been intercepted as you put it) is because of the constant gushing over him that a lot of people do and frankly it's,,,,gross. You even went so far as to do it in this post whether it was on purpose or an automatic response. Even this thread is an example. The guy made a mistake and slid to soon. Sure it happens, but why can't some admit it was a mistake?

Nobody is saying Geno is playing bad or has played bad. I think some are just saying to calm down with the admiration a bit. How many times do we have to hear about his MVP vote, or his 4th quarter comeback record (one I can't take seriously because of all the ones Russ actually has), or whatever else he's done just so people can defend their opinion? It's as if some are saying no other QB could accomplish what Geno has. Theres always the 'Russ couldn't do it. Look at him now'. Well duh. Russ has been done for years, but the things Russ accomplished in his prime are mysteriously forgotten because people don't like him now.

Bottom line is we all know Geno has played good since stepping into the starters role, but some of us don't see him as the messiah like many others do. As well as he has played (and no doubt has improved), there's still old habits that remind us of our apprehensions. As well as he's played, there's still more to prove. To many, he's proven all he needs to.

You are way overplaying the defense of Geno.

Who is saying he didn't make a mistake?

Calling him a messiah?? It was more like defending the fact that he was a top 10 to 13 qb, despite having crap around him for an o line, running game and defense.

It was more folks tearing him down from THE PLACE HE FINISHED, on the basis of 'yeah, but he was never good so in reality he's not actually as good as he has shown, hes more like 18 or 20'. And others defending thatbhe was actually as good as he had shown.

That's claiming he is a messiah? Because thats what its been. Not lifting up to best qb in history, or the savior of a franchise.

You completely skip over the REASON for many of the debate around him, like calls for him to be bumped to backup so we could draft someone (who at where we were picking, would either cost too much, or be a reach). You don't remember the calls for the like's of Pickett, Lewis and others?? You are turning some fans saying ' we have a top 10 to 13 who could actually be better, so why mortgage the future for an unknown rookie', into claims he's the next coming of Tom Brady.

It was defending that it was actually possible that he could even be a quality starter, vs calls for him being the 33rd best qb in the league and better as a backup to Lock... and even when he played better folks STILL saying Lock shoukd start because heblooked good in the Eagles game.

And in between - defending wantingbto keep him around at a 11 to 13th best contract dollars vs calls for him to be let go.

Its the opposite of what you characterize it as. I dont remember anyone saying he was the forever solution at the position. Just that he should be paid to start here at the level he had proven he could perform at. That he had played at a 10 to 13th best qb level (incidently, where John and Pete decided to pay him) and that the crap pieces around him contributed to him being WORSE than what he could have been if he had better support.

And of all of those points of debate around Geno, which take was correct? These are.

1. That he had won the job fairly and was better than Lock.

2. That his past performance as a backup had no bearing on what he coukd do as a starter.

3. That his play in his first 2 seasons was a sign that he could actually be better than he showed becaise he was being pulled down by a poor line, poor defense, poor running game, and qurstionable playcalling. And that his 'decline' over thr 2nd half of season one and season 2 had less to do with his play and more to do with his supporting cast.

4. That it absolutley woukd have been a mistake to draft a Levis, Pickett or any of the other qbs we actually could have gotten because we'd have hust outright regretted wasting a draft pick or lamented giving up draft capital to address other areas.

5.That he was worthy of the contract - which some argued coukd have included more money and years because if he outplayed the prove it deal, we'd be worse off... and now we are.

6. That he was actually clutch and that a fumble in the Pittsburgh game in 2021 and in the playoffs in 2022 wasnt evidence that he wasn't - setting the NFL record for comebacks settled that.

7. And most of all, that if he had a better OC and was in a better system, he'd actually possibly be BETTER than he had shown in his first 2 years. And he has been.

These have been some of the more debated aspects of his game, him as a qb, and what future he should have with the team. And in each case, defending Geno meant just looking at what either coukd be, without dismissing him for what he hadn't been, or acknowledging with valid context what he was actually doing (playing at a top 10 to 13 level with a crippled supporting cast) rather than insisting that obtuse stats about 'almost interceptions ', fabrications about how he is all around too slow at reading defenses to be good, that hes too old and to the point of breaking in the very near future, or that his play now coukd never stand on its own and had to be viewed through the lens of what he did up to being brought in to start for us.

Defending what he has done is not building a messiah. It has and still is just defending some really good QB play that had all the potential of being better if the team was better. And it has.

Its been far more an effort to throw cold water on everything he did and find every reason to dismiss his play as an abberation or just luck. Luck that was bound to run out and show him for he really is:

-Not Russell Wilson

- Not a player worth investing in for the betterment of the team's future.
 

GemCity

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Have you played football? This isn’t as hard as you’ve painted it as. Brock Huard who played said it was bad mistake that can’t happen and called it a mental mistake. What’s petty is not being willing to say a player made a mistake when they all make mistakes. Players locate the first down marker multiple times in every game lol. Your bias towards Geno is clouding your judgement here. In fact I can’t find a single football mind who hasn’t said it was a mental mistake outside of a couple of Geno fanatics.

Geno was the reason we were even in the game and he made a mistake on a crucial third down. It’s ok to admit both it really is
I initially replied that I’m ok with him sliding as I believed he would’ve got lit up otherwise.

After a few replays, and reading the comments here, I now agree. I think he could’ve safely (safely being the key word) got the extra yard.

Some QBs are always looking for the yard marker and make the extra effort whether that be holding the ball out in front of them as they’re getting tackled (not applicable to Geno’s run—more like a Mahomes running out of bounds) or by lowering a shoulder and rolling down…i.e, knowing you’re going to take a hit.

While I don’t think this characterizes Geno’s play, it was simply a mistake.

Flip side - I’m rather comfortable with not having our QB risk taking a big hit. Same for Tyler. Tyler gets knocked for going down or out of bounds too quickly. I get the whole aggressive, fight for every yard approach.

Some people are built different.

I think we need to turn down the magnification on our scope here though…folks are fast to jump on Geno…for whatever reason.

As I’m geologically forced (live in Dayton) to somewhat follow the Bungles (my AFC team of choice), I’ll occasionally visit their forums as well. I’m not registered or post any content …just browsing. Friends and most of my family are Bengals fanatics. My 12 year old son and I are the only ones with good taste 🤣.

Anyways, you should see the shit that they say about Burrow…dude is under a huge microscope. Burrow can play lights out…lead the offense to 30+ points while their defense coughs up 35+, and its Burrows fault.

Appreciate our QB all…he’s pretty damn good. Human..makes mistakes…but he’s one of the best in the league.
 

keasley45

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I have to say this also. Something that frustrates me a good deal is that I don't think we are going to see the fruits of Geno's play during his tenure. What I mean is that I would like to see the results of his good play with a good Oline and good defense. How far could he actually take the team? Can he win in the post season without those weaknesses? It's something I doubt will get to see because of the holes that need to be filled and his age that's a shame.

I agree with you there. If he was behind KCs line, how good would he be?

If we dont get the protection figured out soon, he may not even last the season let alone fulfill his potential.
 

SeaWolv

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Not everyone agreed but in that moment he needed to get the first down and if he does we may have a different game. For a 12 year vet it was a bad mental mistake. Early in the game sure, play it safe. Game on the line? You have to take a chance every once in a while and get a first down. He's been very good these past few years but its still ok to admit when he makes a mistake. But to his credit, I can promise you when he watches the tape he will agree, he screwed that up.
I disagree slightly with this take. I think regardless of where you are in the game you get the damn first down. You would never see Mahomes do that. He would stretch his hand out to make sure the ball passed the line to gain.

The reason you do this regardless of what half your in is because football is a game of momentum and when you have it you need to do whatever you can to sustain it. Momentum has a strange habit of turning against you and there are no guarantees you'll get it back.
 

pittpnthrs

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I dont think Geno felt he needed to get down to avoid a hit. I think he slid, thinking his slide was sufficient to get him the yards.

First mistake.

Second, when you are running down the football field, you arent looking perpendicular to the sideline as you are doing it. Its in your peripheral vision unless you gkance over and its at an oblique angle always. So at 20 mph and at a good distance from the marker, unless its a deisgned run and you have it in your mind before the snap exactly ehat point you are running to, it is NOT easy to just find the hash that corrsponds to the 43.5 yardline or wbatever it was that was theine to gain. Its VERY easy to think you are on one yard msrker when you are on the other. Shoot, Refs do it a couple times a game... when they sre stationary, and have side judges helping them.

Its not a gimme. It wanst avoiding a hit (my opinion),.it looked like he was pretty confident he had it.

And he didnt.

Whether it was because he landed sooner in his slide than he thought he would, or he simply misjudged where he was, doesnt matter. he just missed it.

You are way overplaying the defense of Geno.

It's all good about the slide. Again, it's not that big of a deal. I don't think anybody actually cares about the play itself. The debating going on is more about the sides of defending it and calling him out for it.

I'm certainly not overplaying the defense of Geno. You just don't see it because your a participant in that camp. It's bad. There's an excuse for everything with Geno no matter what. Nothing is ever his fault. Also he's not really playing any better now than he did with Waldron, it's just that he has inflated numbers because he's throwing every down.

I like Geno. I don't love him. He's played well. I never wanted Lock (or Howell now) to start ahead of him. He's better than they are. Do I think he's better than prime Wilson? Hell no. Many do though and will throw those accomplishments like the MVP vote or record 4th quarter comebacks in a season to try and prove their point. Happens everyday here.

As good as Geno has been, I still don't want the FO to throw a bunch of money at him. He's just too old. Let somebody else do that. I also wouldn't have regretted drafting a QB like Levis when he was available. That would have shown that they were at least looking into the future. Now the eggs are in Howells basket and I don't believe that's the answer either.
 

JayhawkMike

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The vast overreaction by some to the smallest criticism of St. Geno is preposterous.

Poster1: That was stupid of Geno not to get the first down.

Poster 2: Here‘s my three page treatise on how Geno has never done anything wrong, how anything that ever went wrong is the fault of anybody but him and how any fan that says anything bad about St. Geno is not only a bad fan and an idiot but is also a bad person.

It‘s laughable and a little sad.
 
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RiverDog

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Second, when you are running down the football field, you arent looking perpendicular to the sideline as you are doing it. Its in your peripheral vision unless you gkance over and its at an oblique angle always. So at 20 mph and at a good distance from the marker, unless its a deisgned run and you have it in your mind before the snap exactly ehat point you are running to, it is NOT easy to just find the hash that corrsponds to the 43.5 yardline or wbatever it was that was theine to gain. Its VERY easy to think you are on one yard msrker when you are on the other. Shoot, Refs do it a couple times a game... when they sre stationary, and have side judges helping them.
Boy, that was a mouthful. I had to truncate it in order to reply to one specific point.

With the way fields are marked in the modern era, especially on artificial turf, with every hash mark clearly painted, there's no excuse for not knowing within a yard where you're at on the field. The Hawks had the ball first and 10 on their own 26, which means that the line to gain was the 36, or a step beyond that long, horizontal stripe, and in this case, Geno of all people, should have known that he had yet to cross the 35 and shouldn't have started his slide until he was a step or two beyond it. There was no need for him to be looking at the sideline for the first down marker.

I don't buy the excuse that Geno thought that he had already gained the needed yardage. I think that he just plain lost sight of the game situation, ie down and distance, and that he instinctively went into a hook slide because that's what they teach QB's to do when getting tackled is imminent. It was a brain fart.
 

knownone

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How is the slide within the margain of error? What does that even mean? How is it in the margain of error if it failed? Again, there should have been no slide and how is it a minor detail in an ordinary QB scramble when there's a thread with 6 pages talking about it?

It was both a mental mistake and lack of awareness. The majority plainly see's that. Why can't you?
Alright. Let's remove subjectivity, and I'll explain why Geno's slide was within the margin of error.

In 2023, the probability of converting a 3rd and 12 was around 20% to 25% (PFR doesn't have specifics on this distance). Anything within 4 yards of the line-to-gain is a favorable outcome in this situation.

Geno got 11 of the 12 yards. That's a B+ or A- outcome. He put us in a favorable spot in a low-probability situation. His slide was within the margin for error. A mental mistake is an error in the process; I don't see that. Geno sees the guys closing in on him and slides too early, but he's already done his job in that situation.

Similarly, the idea that, as Mike Salk suggests, Geno's not sliding was one of three deciding mistakes in the game is pure nonsense. He certainly could have fought for and gotten the first down, and I think Geno would even admit to that in hindsight. But it's still a great play and nowhere near as costly as DK's fumble, the terrible fourth down call, or the botched FG. That distinction is why I referred to this as petty.

Now, I've already conceded that you can call the play whatever the heck you want. Call it a mental mistake or a lack of awareness. I don't care. That's semantics. And whether the majority of people agree with me doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
 

Ozzy

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I disagree slightly with this take. I think regardless of where you are in the game you get the damn first down. You would never see Mahomes do that. He would stretch his hand out to make sure the ball passed the line to gain.

The reason you do this regardless of what half your in is because football is a game of momentum and when you have it you need to do whatever you can to sustain it. Momentum has a strange habit of turning against you and there are no guarantees you'll get it back.
I fully agree.
 

Seahawks8880

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Alright. Let's remove subjectivity, and I'll explain why Geno's slide was within the margin of error.

In 2023, the probability of converting a 3rd and 12 was around 20% to 25% (PFR doesn't have specifics on this distance). Anything within 4 yards of the line-to-gain is a favorable outcome in this situation.

Geno got 11 of the 12 yards. That's a B+ or A- outcome. He put us in a favorable spot in a low-probability situation. His slide was within the margin for error. A mental mistake is an error in the process; I don't see that. Geno sees the guys closing in on him and slides too early, but he's already done his job in that situation.

Similarly, the idea that, as Mike Salk suggests, Geno's not sliding was one of three deciding mistakes in the game is pure nonsense. He certainly could have fought for and gotten the first down, and I think Geno would even admit to that in hindsight. But it's still a great play and nowhere near as costly as DK's fumble, the terrible fourth down call, or the botched FG. That distinction is why I referred to this as petty.

Now, I've already conceded that you can call the play whatever the heck you want. Call it a mental mistake or a lack of awareness. I don't care. That's semantics. And whether the majority of people agree with me doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
It is a blown opportunity IMO. Similar to a running back/receiver breaking wide open for 70 yards only to flip the ball out of his hands 1 yard shy of a TD because he thought he got there already. You can praise them all you want on how they got there but for not having the awareness to finish the job is a blown opportunity and a mental break down.
 

keasley45

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It is a blown opportunity IMO. Similar to a running back/receiver breaking wide open for 70 yards only to flip the ball out of his hands 1 yard shy of a TD because he thought he got there already. You can praise them all you want on how they got there but for not having the awareness to finish the job is a blown opportunity and a mental break down.
So sliding down because you think you have the yerdage for the first ... and thats what qbs are trained to do, is the same as a player selfishly celebrating their big play before they cross the goal line?

Got it.
 

Ozzy

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So sliding down because you think you have the yerdage for the first ... and thats what qbs are trained to do, is the same as a player selfishly celebrating their big play before they cross the goal line?

Got it.
I love ya man but Geno screwed up. It’s as easy as that. Brady, Manning, Wilson and Geno they all make mistakes from time to time. I bet the next time he’s faced with it he doesn’t make it again.
 

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