Geno Isn't the Guy. Sad to Say (Main)

[pittpnthrs]

Bottom line is with the amount of pressure geno was under there isn't anybody going to do better... go ahead a rewatch the game and see what I'm saying.

LTH

Oh come on. Do you seriously believe that? So Geno played as good as any QB could have Sunday? Good lord.

 

[pittpnthrs]

When the Seahawks won a Super Bowl, their quarterback was not in the top three. By passer rating, he was seventh that year. By QBR, which (unlike passer rating) takes into account QB runs and scrambles, down and distance, field position, fumbles, and sacks, the Seahawks' QB in their title-winning season was ninth. By ANY/A, he was seventh. By completion percentage, which did improve later in his career, he was 13th-best in the league. By passing success rate, the Seahawks' QB in their Lombardi-winning season was 16th in the league. By interception percentage, something at which he got better in the following years, he was 14th-best in the league that year. TD percentage is the only measure I could find by which he was in the top three, and even by that measure, the distance between him and the top two was twice the distance between him and the QB with the tenth-best TD% that season.

Wilson made it into the top five overall for one or two seasons in his career. It's fair to say he was among the top ten in the 2013 season, which is pretty damn good for a second-year quarterback, especially one with the limitations we now know he had and has, but he was not in the top five that season.

The thing is that as we've seen over the last season-and-a-third, even famous and widely respected coaches can't get the kind of performance out of Wilson that Pete Carroll did. Carroll recognized Wilson's strengths and weaknesses and built an offense around maximizing the strengths and minimizing the effect of Wilson's weaknesses. Fans here would later deride this approach as "Pete-ball" and claim Carroll was holding Wilson back. We've now seen that Carroll was the best thing that ever happened to Wilson.

When Carroll was relatively happy after Sunday's game and in yesterday's radio interview, people took that as Carroll not taking winning seriously enough and the fire-Pete crowd said it was yet another reason the Seahawks should get rid of him. I saw it differently. I don't remember ever seeing Carroll so excited about what he saw after a loss. I take that as a tremendously good sign for the rest of the season. He saw the good things that happened in a close loss in a game against a good opponent in that opponent's stadium, and he's clearly excited about how the team is coming together. It doesn't mean he didn't see what went wrong, and I'd be willing to bet there were some hard moments during Tell-the-truth Monday yesterday.

Sports-talk-radio hosts and talking-head mediots on the teevee have been telling us for a long time that a team "must" have a top-of-the-league QB to win in the NFL, and a lot of people have started repeating it. The problem with that is that we've seen a bunch examples since 2000, like the Seahawks in 2013, or like Tom Brady's first three titles (in his 20s, when he was still a "game manager" and hadn't yet had any Peyton Manning-level seasons), or like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Eli Manning (twice), Joe Flacco, or Nick Foles, times when a "good-enough" QB was indeed good enough. That's ten out of 23 seasons. And only six QBs (plus Stafford, whom I don't know how to place - among the "good enough" or among the top QBs) account for all the other titles since 2000. Hell, I'm being unduly kind putting Rapelisberger in the "top" category. Plus 2015 was bizarre, with age-39 Peyton Manning, who wasn't even what I would have called "good enough," getting a title despite his on-the-field performance having fallen off a cliff. Peak Peyton Manning, Brees, Rodgers, post-2007 Brady, and Mahomes are clearly the kinds of QBs you're talking about, and it's true that those guys won nine titles between them (one, one, one, four, and two so far, respectively), but it's also pretty clear that having that kind of QB is not at all a prerequisite for winning titles.

The example you yourself cited, of the Seahawks' title-winning season, is a great example of a team winning a Lombardi Trophy despite not having one of the top QBs in the league. Wilson was certainly not bad (clearly among the top ten), but was not in the top tier either.

Seahawks management has shown a willingness to package picks to move up in the draft and get a player they want. Off the top of my head, both of the Seahawks top two wide receivers were drafted that way, and so was their punter. If Seahawks management beiieved drafting one of the top QBs in the draft would have given them a better chance at success than staying with Geno Smith, they had the draft capital to do that in 2023 and possibly even in 2022. I believe they didn't do it because they analyzed the possibilities and concluded that more picks and Smith was better for the team's success than fewer picks, a top rookie QB prospect, and the cap savings in 2024 from having a rookie QB instead of Smith. This year, there wouldn't be much cap savings, because Smith's cap number this season is only about $3.2M more than Bryce Young's (#1 overall pick) and about $5.2M more than Witherspoon's (#5 overall pick).

The thing about Wilson was that he wasnt a pass first QB for the first few years in Seattle. He was an elusive runner. It was when he baulked because he was getting hit so often that the running and elusiveness started to fade and his game started to change.

 

[Ozzy]

Exactly. My god, even when he has an off game, it wasn't on him.

I can't even believe some of the sh** I read on here. Denial. So much of it.

JSN was WIDE OPEN, he was LOOKING AT HIM. He didn't throw the ball. How is that NOT on him? How is it NOT on him when DK is wide open for a TD?
When he is on, he's damn good. But when an NFL QB has a crap game, it needs to be pointed out. ALL of them.

I said it earlier but people hate Russ so much they are forcing the Geno narrative. Geno looks fantastic at times and mediocre at others. He has 5 touchdowns through 5 games and objectively that’s just not good at the moment.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And he started playing like sh** and they sent him packing. Which was absolutely the right thing to. I don't care WHO is under center. If it's time, it's time. NOT saying it's time to throw Lock in there, but he was hot garbage yesterday.
The forced Geno is great narrative has been going on the last 2 years. Exactly why I retired from that other subject. It's a waste of time.

 

[Maelstrom787]

And he started playing like sh** and they sent him packing. Which was absolutely the right thing to. I don't care WHO is under center. If it's time, it's time. NOT saying it's time to throw Lock in there, but he was hot garbage yesterday.
The forced Geno is great narrative has been going on the last 2 years. Exactly why I retired from that other subject. It's a waste of time.

Nothing forced about it. You and your ilk tried to force a "Geno is crap" narrative despite proof staring you guys in the face, as proven by that one monstrous thread full of the exact denial you begrudge here.

Remember geNO? I do. You're not as impartial of a source as you think you are.

 

[Rosco]

Nothing forced about it. You and your ilk tried to force a "Geno is crap" narrative despite proof staring you guys in the face, as proven by that one monstrous thread full of the exact denial you begrudge here.

Remember geNO? I do. You're not as impartial of a source as you think you are.

He’s not crap. He’s a averag,at best, QB. That plays below average at times. He’s not crap, but he isn’t very good either.

 

[Lagartixa]

Geno made some mistakes in this game... but if you look at the O line play Curhan and Bradford, we're horrible. Geno had no time to throw the ball the Bengles were in his face the whole game with the exception of the first drive. So my question to you is what exactly do you want Geno to do... the O line was finally exposed for what it is, a injury torn mess.. the majority was NOT Geno's fault. Hawks couldn't get the running game going, same issue ...the line just got exposed I don't hear anyone blaming walker. Bottom line is with the amount of pressure geno was under there isn't anybody going to do better... go ahead a rewatch the game and see what I'm saying.

LTH

I'll agree with the Seahawks' offensive-line play being really bad, especially in the red zone on the last drive (and yes, through the whole game), but there are definitely guys who would have done better in that situation. Rodgers is out for at least most of this season, but he's also capable of getting the ball out really fast. Tagovailoa has a surprisingly fast release. Burrow is pretty damn good at getting the ball out quickly, and we can reasonably expect him to improve further.

Anticipating some of the potential replies, I recognize that average release time is not everything. Garoppolo has a faster release than you might think, but still manages to be awful under pressure. Also, quicker passes tend to be shorter passes, and unless the QB is in a sweet situation like Purdy on the Gold Diggers with their multiple YAC monsters, that'll lead to shorter completions. But there are quarterbacks like Rodgers who manage to excel on both the long-developing stuff and the quick, short stuff too and end up doing well in many things simultaneously - yes, average release time, but also ANY/A and average air yards per attempt. In any case, in a game like Sunday's Seahawks game, when the OL is unable to stop the opposing DL, quick release is really important, and one of Smith's weaknesses on Sunday was that he was not quick enough to make decisions and get the ball out.

Smith had a bad game, and still got over 300 yards passing. There are good signs even with the bad things that happened and even with the mistakes, some really big (like the first interception and running for a first down instead of passing for a big play), that Smith made. Smith has shown that he's capable of playing better in those situations, so if we hope for him to play better than that going forward, especially when the OL is in better shape, it's not unrealistic like, say, Bears fans hoping Justin Fields will become an above-average NFL QB (and this was the case even before his injury) or Stealers fans hoping Pickett will turn it around and make the Pro Bowl.

When Russell Wilson wasn't quite getting it done in the first half of the 2015 season, we knew he was capable of better. When he utterly sucked against Arizona in the first game after the bye, we still knew he was capable of doing better that season. And when the changes the coaching staff made during the mid-season (week-9) bye took hold starting in the second game of the second half of the season, Wilson's last seven games (with a slight hiccup against the Rams in week 16) were glorious, the absolute best stretch of his career, punctuated by a great game against the same Cardinals against whom he'd had his worst game of the season, ending the regular season with a bang.

I feel the same way about Smith now as I did about Wilson in the middle of the 2015 season. I can see what he hasn't done well this season, and I am certain he can do better and believe he will. Carroll's attitude this week suggests to me he believes that too.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I didn't say HE IS CRAP. I said he WAS CRAP ON SUNDAY. But as usual, your butt hurt shows when someone calls out your messiah.

You call me not impartial, but you have NEVER been able to just admit when he has a bad game. He was AWFUL. Period.

We've been thru this dance for 2 years. Piss off dude. Your act is almost as old as a Fade take. You worship an above average at best QB and get your panties in a bunch if people call him out. You talk down to everyone on here. Always have.

Geno CAN BE very good when he gets blocking. Put pressure on him and he folds like a tent. Game on the line, he has never been cold blooded.

Haha, cry more. If you read the post (which you never do in any detail), you'd know I was talking about the early days of this debate when you were red-assed wrong.

Please, though, proceed with the persecution complex. I've absolutely called his play bad when it was bad in the past.

 

[Maelstrom787]

That's adorable. Go get that Geno doll blow up for a fun night..........
I gave him plenty of props when he played well, crow recipes all day long. Nice try though.

piss off, you're a self-centered pri**. Easy enough to understand?

You've never been quite the same after holding that L in 2022 after holding the L on the Russ trade. I'm sorry that it claws at you as much as it does. I hope you feel better one of these days.

 

[Hawknight]

The thing about Wilson was that he wasnt a pass first QB for the first few years in Seattle. He was an elusive runner. It was when he baulked because he was getting hit so often that the running and elusiveness started to fade and his game started to change.

If I remember right, I don't know exactly which season it was, but Wilson had packed on quite a bit of weight during the offseason to bulk up. It forever changed him after that IMHO, for he was much slower after the fact and lost a bit of speed.

 

[Titus Pullo]

I wonder if the Geno apologists would defend Lock had he started this year and had the same stats as Geno.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I wonder if the Geno apologists would defend Lock had he started this year and had the same stats as Geno.

Depends on the circumstances. If Lock had the 2022 that Geno had, then certainly.

 

[GemCity]

Thanks for sharing this. He also missed a wide open DK for a TD. And another play, Tyler was wide open. And I'm not buying this he was under pressure crap. Not on the 3 wide open TD's. Look at that, GENO IS LOOKING RIGHT AT JSN. How in the hell do you not throw that EASY touchdown. That likely cost them the game.
Yeah, look how "under pressure" he is on this EASY TOUCHDOWN.

Believe it or not, it looked much worse in person.
JSN literally just stood there, with his hands up…and after the play, dropped his head and was just shaking it like “wtf”

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Damn. Game changing stuff right there. We need 2022 Geno back. He wouldn't have missed these wide-open guys, imo.

 

[hoxrox]

He has 5 touchdowns through 5 games and objectively that’s just not good at the moment.

5 TDs in 5 games doesn't sound good in a vacuum, but Seattle is #1 in getting to the redzone.



So they are getting there, but the redzone play calling leaves a lot to be desired. Geno could be better here but I think it's mostly play calling when it comes to redzone offense.

 

[JGreen79]

5 TDs in 5 games doesn't sound good in a vacuum, but Seattle is #1 in getting to the redzone.

View attachment 61277

So they are getting there, but the redzone play calling leaves a lot to be desired. Geno could be better here but I think it's mostly play calling when it comes to redzone offense.

I agree, IMO redzone offense is about 95% play calling, 5% execution.

 

[Rosco]

I agree, IMO redzone offense is about 95% play calling, 5% execution.

you got it backwards. Red zone plays are practiced throughout the week. Come game time it’s about execution.

 

[Throwdown]

Wilson more than likely wins that game. Just saying.

Has he done that in the last 3 years?

 

[Maelstrom787]

Wilson more than likely wins that game. Just saying.

Not late Wilson. No way no how. Stinkers like this were commonplace in the later years. They were just blamed on the OL, "Peteball", and the OC before they were blamed on Russ.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I didn't say HE IS CRAP. I said he WAS CRAP ON SUNDAY. But as usual, your butt hurt shows when someone calls out your messiah.

You call me not impartial, but you have NEVER been able to just admit when he has a bad game. He was AWFUL. Period.

We've been thru this dance for 2 years. Piss off dude. Your act is almost as old as a Fade take. You worship an above average at best QB and get your panties in a bunch if people call him out. You talk down to everyone on here. Always have.

Geno CAN BE very good when he gets blocking. Put pressure on him and he folds like a tent. Game on the line, he has never been cold blooded.

Spot on. Geno has good games and Geno has Geno games. Its why i'll never be able to go all in with him. If the game is on the line or if he's rattled throughout, I count it as a loss no matter what. He's a good systematic QB that isnt good when asked or is needed to be more.