Bears, Chicago at Loggerheads Over Proposed Stadium

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RiverDog

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Actually, the Jaguars and city are sharing the cost 50/50.

Nashville and Charlotte are small markets. The Rams went to St. Louis, and LA had no NFL team for about 20 years.
They shouldn't have to share any costs outside of infrastructure, perhaps a tax break on construction, things like that.

Kansas City, Cincinnati, and Buffalo are small markets, too. So what's your point?

There was a silver lining for the NFL by not having a team in LA in that it gave them a huge amount of leverage when negotiating with cities like Seattle and Minneapolis for a new stadium. You don't want to build us a new stadium? Fine, we'll move to LA and tough it out in the nation's 2nd largest market.
 

Bear-Hawk

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They shouldn't have to share any costs outside of infrastructure, perhaps a tax break on construction, things like that.

Kansas City, Cincinnati, and Buffalo are small markets, too. So what's your point?

There was a silver lining for the NFL by not having a team in LA in that it gave them a huge amount of leverage when negotiating with cities like Seattle and Minneapolis for a new stadium. You don't want to build us a new stadium? Fine, we'll move to LA and tough it out in the nation's 2nd largest market.
Nice that you and Fender can decide matters for the city of Jacksonville about what they “should” do. I read that of the first 140 stadiums built after WW2, only 14 did not have any public financing.

Turn back the clock 100 years in Chicago, and Wrigley Field, Comisiky Park, and Soldier Field were built with no public funding. The Bears are putting $2.4 billion into this project. I don’t expect them to turn the team into a nonprofit organization for the next 20 years to pay for $7 billion facility with about $300 million current net income. Without public-private partnership, Warren will have to scale down the project significantly, or Bears play another 100 years in deteriorating Soldier Field.

My point was that small markets can compete with large markets for NFL franchises. If the shoe were on the other foot, I wonder how many Seahawks fans besides guys like you and Fender would get all outraged over a $2 hotel tax, if the Seahawks threatened to move to Sacramento.
 

NoGain

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Times have changed. The NFL is a multi-billion dollar business now. They've even added legalized betting to help overflow their coffers, something they were so against in the past. The times of public funding for stadiums for a cash cow like the NFL are over. There may be a few more, but the trend of public funding for such stadiums is tilted dramatically downward now.
 

toffee

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They shouldn't have to share any costs outside of infrastructure, perhaps a tax break on construction, things like that.

Kansas City, Cincinnati, and Buffalo are small markets, too. So what's your point?

There was a silver lining for the NFL by not having a team in LA in that it gave them a huge amount of leverage when negotiating with cities like Seattle and Minneapolis for a new stadium. You don't want to build us a new stadium? Fine, we'll move to LA and tough it out in the nation's 2nd largest market.
LA didn't have an NFL team for a very long time, now they have two. How does that enrich the life of folks in LA? About 60k of 15 million popular could attend a game a few weekends every year. For the nongame-going folks, should they pay for the stadium?
 

Bear-Hawk

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LA didn't have an NFL team for a very long time, now they have two. How does that enrich the life of folks in LA? About 60k of 15 million popular could attend a game a few weekends every year. For the nongame-going folks, should they pay for the stadium?
The short answer is that there are not enough game-going fans to pay for a multi-billion stadium. As somebody already posted, billionaires have better places to invest their money, so there’s a limit to how much money the Bears or any other team will put into a stadium. So if a city wants an NFL franchise, they will put some skin in the game. Jaguars are getting $700 million. Bills just got $500 million. Titans got $600 million. These are all much smaller markets than Chicago, so my hunch is that Warren will get SOME public money but not as much as he wants.
 
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RiverDog

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It will be interesting to see what happens in Kansas City, one of the smallest markets in the league but the most successful franchise over the past few years. Voters there resoundingly rejected a 3/8 of one cent sales tax to help fund stadiums for both the Chiefs and MLB Royals.

The public mood towards funding professional sporting venues has shifted. I'd be very surprised of any funding measure that went to the voters is successful. The only way they'll get public funding will be to sweet talk politicians like they did in JAX.
 

Bear-Hawk

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It will be interesting to see what happens in Kansas City, one of the smallest markets in the league but the most successful franchise over the past few years. Voters there resoundingly rejected a 3/8 of one cent sales tax to help fund stadiums for both the Chiefs and MLB Royals.

The public mood towards funding professional sporting venues has shifted. I'd be very surprised of any funding measure that went to the voters is successful. The only way they'll get public funding will be to sweet talk politicians like they did in JAX.
The hotel tax hits non-residents (i.e., non-voters in election of mayor and city council). The 3/8 cent sales tax hits everyone. That’s one difference. Another is that the protest in KC was more about the location than the tax. Still, 42% supported it. So I wouldn’t take KC as a predictor for Chicago. I still think something will get done, but the package may get scaled down to something closer to what Warren did with the Vikings stadium, but a bit larger.
 

Seahawks Guy

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Nice that you and Fender can decide matters for the city of Jacksonville about what they “should” do. I read that of the first 140 stadiums built after WW2, only 14 did not have any public financing.

We are just giving our opinion. We aren't deciding anything. Maybe some people from Jacksonville will stumble upon this discussion, read our posts, and become enlightened on the principle of the matter. That would be great.
 
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RiverDog

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The hotel tax hits non-residents (i.e., non-voters in election of mayor and city council). The 3/8 cent sales tax hits everyone. That’s one difference. Another is that the protest in KC was more about the location than the tax. Still, 42% supported it. So I wouldn’t take KC as a predictor for Chicago. I still think something will get done, but the package may get scaled down to something closer to what Warren did with the Vikings stadium, but a bit larger.
I disagree. The KC vote was strictly philosophical. No one's going to notice a 3/8ths of one cent increase in sales tax. It all had to do with using public money, any public money, on professional sporting team venues.
 

Bear-Hawk

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I disagree. The KC vote was strictly philosophical. No one's going to notice a 3/8ths of one cent increase in sales tax. It all had to do with using public money, any public money, on professional sporting team venues.
That’s not what I read. They said voters did not approve the location, because it would displace some long-standing businesses in the proposed location. I don’t doubt that there are some anti-tax purists like you and Fender who would rather see KC move to another city than pay $0.0001 additional tax.
 
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RiverDog

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That’s not what I read. They said voters did not approve the location, because it would displace some long-standing businesses in the proposed location. I don’t doubt that there are some anti-tax purists like you and Fender who would rather see KC move to another city than pay $0.0001 additional tax.
First of all, I wish you would quit referring to me as an anti-tax purist that wants to see teams move out of long-established cities. That is not what I am saying. My position is that there should be some sort of law or national policy against public funding for any professional sporting venue so teams can't play one city against another.

Secondly, because a person votes against a stadium proposal doesn't make them an "anti-tax purist". As has been cited above, there are lots of studies out there that show that these pursuits have a very poor return on investment. A person could vote to tax themselves by voting for schools, hospitals, roadways, et al, but not on propositions that gives taxpayer money to filthy rich billionaires who can afford to pay for it themselves.

I'm sure that the dynamics in KC's no vote were varied. Some have speculated that part of the objection was due to a lack of transparency, that the Royals missed their own self-imposed deadline to produce a concrete plan. But 58% is a pretty solid majority, and one has to take into account the popularity of the KC Chiefs. If they can't win a vote, how in the heck would a team like the Washington Commanders, who are also looking for a new venue, be able to win a public vote?
 

Bear-Hawk

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First of all, I wish you would quit referring to me as an anti-tax purist that wants to see teams move out of long-established cities. That is not what I am saying. My position is that there should be some sort of law or national policy against public funding for any professional sporting venue so teams can't play one city against another.

Secondly, because a person votes against a stadium proposal doesn't make them an "anti-tax purist". As has been cited above, there are lots of studies out there that show that these pursuits have a very poor return on investment. A person could vote to tax themselves by voting for schools, hospitals, roadways, et al, but not on propositions that gives taxpayer money to filthy rich billionaires who can afford to pay for it themselves.

I'm sure that the dynamics in KC's no vote were varied. Some have speculated that part of the objection was due to a lack of transparency, that the Royals missed their own self-imposed deadline to produce a concrete plan. But 58% is a pretty solid majority, and one has to take into account the popularity of the KC Chiefs. If they can't win a vote, how in the heck would a team like the Washington Commanders, who are also looking for a new venue, be able to win a public vote?
I’ll make it simple. If the Seahawks wanted an extremely small hotel tax 25 cents for a renovation and the team was paying 75% of the cost, would you rather have that deal or they move the team to Sacramento?
 

NoGain

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I’ll make it simple. If the Seahawks wanted an extremely small hotel tax 25 cents for a renovation and the team was paying 75% of the cost, would you rather have that deal or they move the team to Sacramento?
The Paul Allen estate is worth over 20 billion dollars. If billionaire owners and the cash cow of the NFL want to eff over the fans then so be it. Ruin the experience. I'll move on to something else. Maybe people can concentrate on things more important than a stupid little game.
 

Bear-Hawk

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The Paul Allen estate is worth over 20 billion dollars. If billionaire owners and the cash cow of the NFL want to eff over the fans then so be it. Ruin the experience. I'll move on to something else. Maybe people can concentrate on things more important than a stupid little game.
You qualify.
 

NoGain

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You qualify.
Let's face it. Bread and circuses. At some point, when entertainment and fantasy begin to divert the attention of the public from more important things due to their greed, I for one don't care anymore. There's other more important things that people can do with their time.
 
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RiverDog

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I’ll make it simple. If the Seahawks wanted an extremely small hotel tax 25 cents for a renovation and the team was paying 75% of the cost, would you rather have that deal or they move the team to Sacramento?
"Extremely small"? How much revenue would they be reaping?

If they're going to use a relatively small amount, in the neighborhood of a $100-$200M on infrastructure improvements or tax breaks on construction costs, then I'd likely be good with it. But $1B on a $4B stadium? That's money that can be used elsewhere. See ya!
 
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RiverDog

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The Paul Allen estate is worth over 20 billion dollars. If billionaire owners and the cash cow of the NFL want to eff over the fans then so be it. Ruin the experience. I'll move on to something else. Maybe people can concentrate on things more important than a stupid little game.
That's pretty much where I'm at. I love the Seahawks, just like I loved the Sonics. The Sonics moved to OKC and I swore off NBA basketball and haven't watched a full game since.

If my favorite team, of whom I've been extremely loyal to, financially as well as emotionally, for going on 48 years, is going to act like a cheap pimp and treat me like a drunk horny john on a Saturday night by trying to blackmail me into funding a grossly inflated and mostly unnecessary stadium project of which they have plenty of resources to finance themselves, then I don't give a crap if they move the team to Siberia.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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"Extremely small"? How much revenue would they be reaping?

If they're going to use a relatively small amount, in the neighborhood of a $100-$200M on infrastructure improvements or tax breaks on construction costs, then I'd likely be good with it. But $1B on a $4B stadium? That's money that can be used elsewhere. See ya!
You changed the hypothetical. I said 25 cents per night for hotel guests. You can make the dollar amount $200 million. That’s less important, and the money goes to stadium construction, not infrastructure.
 

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The multi billion dollar franchises can build their own stadiums no problem.
They don't want to because it's cheaper to swindle the common folk to give
them free money while they avoid maintenance costs and property taxes since
they never want to own the property or stadium.
They will however insist on taking all or a cut of parking,all of concession and
merchandise sales.
What a sweet scam this is so far right?
Then forward 25-30 years you are doing this all over again while stuck with a relic.
 

flv2

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Either local communities pay towards stadiums for sports franchises or you let the franchises move to where they can make the most money. Not financially supporting them and then saying they can't leave is BS. That's as close to politics as I want to get on this site.
 
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