Bears, Chicago at Loggerheads Over Proposed Stadium

[Seahawks Guy]

Either local communities pay towards stadiums for sports franchises or you let the franchises move to where they can make the most money. Not financially supporting them and then saying they can't leave is BS. That's as close to politics as I want to get on this site.

If there aren't any communities willing to fund a stadium, then where do they move the team to?

 

[RiverDog]

You changed the hypothetical. I said 25 cents per night for hotel guests. You can make the dollar amount $200 million. That’s less important, and the money goes to stadium construction, not infrastructure.

I don't care if it's a hotel tax, a tax on cigarettes and liquor, or a tax on soda pop. A tax is a tax. It's public money. Besides, in a hotel tax, you're taxing people the majority of whom won't be using the facility.

If you're going to tax someone, levy an admissions tax and hit up those people who are actually going to watch games being played there. If someone like yourself is so committed to donating public money to billionaires, I'm sure you wouldn't mind paying an extra $10 in an admissions tax to watch the Bears.

Oh, wait! If we did that, then no one would vote for it.

 

[RiverDog]

If there aren't any communities willing to fund a stadium, then where do they move the team to?

Yeah, that's the problem. The sport is popular, so much so that there's always going to be at least one community, or politicians of a community, that will be willing to pay the ransom.

 

[Seahawks Guy]

Yeah, that's the problem. The sport is popular, so much so that there's always going to be at least one community, or politicians of a community, that will be willing to pay the ransom.

If that's the case, then I will continue to state my opinion and encourage others to fight against it. At that point the league will be in trouble, as it will be exposed for what it is. Another league will form to compete. A morally righteous league that Americans will support. If not, then America has bigger cultural issues to worry about than football.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

I don't care if it's a hotel tax, a tax on cigarettes and liquor, or a tax on soda pop. A tax is a tax. It's public money. Besides, in a hotel tax, you're taxing people the majority of whom won't be using the facility.

If you're going to tax someone, levy an admissions tax and hit up those people who are actually going to watch games being played there. If someone like yourself is so committed to donating public money to billionaires, I'm sure you wouldn't mind paying an extra $10 in an admissions tax to watch the Bears.

Oh, wait! If we did that, then no one would vote for it.

You still didn’t answer the question. If you were a KC fan, would you vote for this 25 cents hotel tax, or would you rather see the team moved to Sacramento?

 

[RiverDog]

You still didn’t answer the question. If you were a KC fan, would you vote for this 25 cents hotel tax, or would you rather see the team moved to Sacramento?

I thought I did answer it, but since you're having a hard time connecting the dots, I'll spell it out for you:

Yes, I'd rather see the Seahawks (Or KC if I were a Chiefs fan) move to Sacramento (or Siberia, as I said in my previous response) than to give them public taxpayer money, which includes a $.25 hotel tax (but I could go for an admissions tax), to fund a multi-billion dollar stadium.

Is that clear enough for you?

 

[RiverDog]

If that's the case, then I will continue to state my opinion and encourage others to fight against it. At that point the league will be in trouble, as it will be exposed for what it is. Another league will form to compete. A morally righteous league that Americans will support. If not, then America has bigger cultural issues to worry about than football.

I agree.

You said something about forming another league to compete. What could scare the NFL into adapting a policy of at least limiting the amount of taxpayer money that can be used in stadium construction would be the threat of an anti-trust lawsuit. Declare them a monopoly and break up the NFL into 4 completely separate leagues, without a common draft, a common CBA, or common media rights.

That's sort of what's happening with Ticketmaster. The government is suing them over monopolistic practices. What the league is doing in threatening to take their team elsewhere is exercising the fact that they are a monopoly to bribe cities into acceding to their demands. A city has no other alternative other than to go without.

 

[RiverDog]

Here's a proposal for you, @Bear-Hawk:

In addition to an admissions tax, let's add a 10% concessions tax for any food, beverage, or anything else sold in the stadium on game days, a 10% tax on stadium parking, a licensing fee for the NFL to sell any paraphernalia such as team jerseys and bobble heads, a tax to any network or streaming service that charges for their product, and a 10% sales tax for anyone advertising on networks or streaming services.

Make the people who actually patronize the product pay for these critically necessary multi-billion dollar stadiums.

 

[chris98251]

Here's a proposal for you, @Bear-Hawk:

In addition to an admissions tax, let's add a 10% concessions tax for any food, beverage, or anything else sold in the stadium on game days, a 10% tax on stadium parking, a licensing fee for the NFL to sell any paraphernalia such as team jerseys and bobble heads, a tax to any network or streaming service that charges for their product, and a 10% sales tax for anyone advertising on networks or streaming services.

Make the people who actually patronize the product pay for these critically necessary multi-billion dollar stadiums.

So all the bars and restaurants, shops, City due to having their transportation used and benefit should also cough up a percentage.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

I thought I did answer it, but since you're having a hard time connecting the dots, I'll spell it out for you:

Yes, I'd rather see the Seahawks (Or KC if I were a Chiefs fan) move to Sacramento (or Siberia, as I said in my previous response) than to give them public taxpayer money, which includes a $.25 hotel tax (but I could go for an admissions tax), to fund a multi-billion dollar stadium.

Is that clear enough for you?

Yes, you qualify.

 

[toffee]

In a market-driven free economy, it comes down to (a) Teams need the cities, or (b) cities need the teams. Let's see, an NFL franchise, that's the coming-of-age card, isn't it? A city without an NFL franchise is like you don't have the card to sit at the big table. How about a team without a big city? you can't put a franchise in Sioux Falls and live purely on TV money, can you?

In the end, a franchise needs the population more so than the population needs a franchise, as only a tiny percentage of the population attends live games. Los Angeles was living proof, LA did quite OK for decades without a team, and not doing any better with two.

My 2p.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

The multi billion dollar franchises can build their own stadiums no problem.
They don't want to because it's cheaper to swindle the common folk to give
them free money while they avoid maintenance costs and property taxes since
they never want to own the property or stadium.
They will however insist on taking all or a cut of parking,all of concession and
merchandise sales.
What a sweet scam this is so far right?
Then forward 25-30 years you are doing this all over again while stuck with a relic.

This is just one example of American capitalism at work. In general, capitalists act to maximize profits.

There are many more egregious examples. I watched a documentary about the Arctic last night. At current rate of global warming, within 40 years, the entire ice sheet will melt in summer and all polar bears die. I will be among the grateful dead by then, but my granddaughters generation will have to deal with this mess we’ve left them.

 

[flv2]

I'm not going to say what the city of Seattle or the next owner of the Seahawks should do, but I won't be happy if the Rams end up with a divisional rival based in Oklahoma City.

Too soon?

 

[Threedee]

How much more expensive (adjusting for inflation) are stadiums today than they were a century ago? I feel as though public funding slowly started to become a problem in the 60s, got worse in the 70s & 80s, and, then, got wildly out of control in the 90s.

 

[RiverDog]

How much more expensive (adjusting for inflation) are stadiums today than they were a century ago? I feel as though public funding slowly started to become a problem in the 60s, got worse in the 70s & 80s, and, then, got wildly out of control in the 90s.

When what is now Lumen Field opened in 2002, it cost $430 million and even today, is widely considered to be one of the better facilities in the league. A dollar in 2002 is worth $1.74 today, so if you take $430m and times it by 1.74, you come up with $748M. Today's NFL stadiums, even when taking into account inflation, are all much, much more expensive, well over a billion dollars, with LA's SoFi Stadium topping the list at a cool $5B.

So realistically, NFL stadiums today, when factored for inflation, are at least 2-3 times as expensive as they were when Lumen Field opened 22 years ago. That's one of the reasons why I've adapted such a hard line when it comes to public financing of these billionaire playgrounds.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

When what is now Lumen Field opened in 2002, it cost $430 million and even today, is widely considered to be one of the better facilities in the league. A dollar in 2002 is worth $1.74 today, so if you take $430m and times it by 1.74, you come up with $748M. Today's NFL stadiums, even when taking into account inflation, are all much, much more expensive, well over a billion dollars, with LA's SoFi Stadium topping the list at a cool $5B.

So realistically, NFL stadiums today, when factored for inflation, are at least 2-3 times as expensive as they were when Lumen Field opened 22 years ago. That's one of the reasons why I've adapted such a hard line when it comes to public financing of these billionaire playgrounds.

Somebody posted those economic studies that conclude that an NFL stadium is a poor economic investment. Nevertheless, SoFi was built without any public financing. That’s puzzling. You’d think they’d find more profitable investments.

 

[Lagartixa]

I'm not going to say what the city of Seattle or the next owner of the Seahawks should do, but I won't be happy if the Rams end up with a divisional rival based in Oklahoma City.

Too soon?

Why? The flights between St. Louis and Oklahoma City should be pretty quick.

D000d, your joke is humorous, but a Rams fan making that joke is like a four-foot-tall man making funny comments about how short a group of NBA frontcourt players are.

 

[RiverDog]

Somebody posted those economic studies that conclude that an NFL stadium is a poor economic investment. Nevertheless, SoFi was built without any public financing. That’s puzzling. You’d think they’d find more profitable investments.

LA's ability to build SoFi with 100% private funding is an anomaly. A couple of things influenced this that aren't present in nearly every other city: There was no existing team that could threaten to move and thus blackmail the voters/politician into helping them build their desired facility. They are a huge market, 2nd largest in the nation, with three teams just itching to move there (the Raiders originally wanted to move there, too, but the league didn't want Mark Davis anywhere near their plum). The other thing is that they are in the 2nd largest market in the country with a lot more resources than some place like Jacksonville or Kansas City.

IMO the odds of the league approving a move for the Bears, one of if not the most iconic franchise in the league, out of the Chicago area is highly unlikely, so they don't have a credible threat in which to use to blackmail the public, which is probably why they've chosen to play hardball with them. That strategy won't work in other cities.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

LA's ability to build SoFi with 100% private funding is an anomaly. A couple of things influenced this that aren't present in nearly every other city: There was no existing team that could threaten to move and thus blackmail the voters/politician into helping them build their desired facility. They are a huge market, 2nd largest in the nation, with three teams just itching to move there (the Raiders originally wanted to move there, too, but the league didn't want Mark Davis anywhere near their plum). The other thing is that they are in the 2nd largest market in the country with a lot more resources than some place like Jacksonville or Kansas City.

IMO the odds of the league approving a move for the Bears, one of if not the most iconic franchise in the league, out of the Chicago area is highly unlikely, so they don't have a credible threat in which to use to blackmail the public, which is probably why they've chosen to play hardball with them. That strategy won't work in other cities.

Bears franchise won’t be sold so long as Virginia is alive, but she’s now 101 years old. The Bears are one of the highest market value teams in the NFL, so they could finance the same as SoFi. That could all get done in combination eventually. The alternative may be to scale down the project from $7billion to $2 billion. Given the enormous debt already in Chicago and the state due to the pensions debacle, Warren is trying to suck blood out of a turnip. This contrasts to the Raiders who were able to get about $1 billion in public money for their stadium.

 

[chris98251]

Well, the Cities looking for an NFL team presently, Memphis, San Antonio, St Louis, San Diego, oh and the State of Kansas through their hat in the Mix for the Chiefs it appears. I know Sacramento has come up on some lists as well. The most viable I think are San Antonio, Memphis, that have not had a franchise and then of course St Louis and San Diego wanting one back. San Antonio and Memphis have supported the WFL and USFL teams that played there very well, both Cities have also said they would fund a Stadium at one point, Tennessee and the Houston and Dallas teams I am sure would vote against it, but it's out there.