A thought about " Culture "

[jammerhawk]

But "Always Compete", amirite? It's going to be hard to find another professional HC that believes in that.

Really? There are a lot of teams that try to emulate the positivity and team spirit ideas fostered by Coach Carroll. Nobody could possibly be the same as Pete Carroll but his ideas are not bad ideas.

I guess we'll see how hard it would be to continue a new version of the "Always Compete" ideas, but throwing the concept out just b/c of coaching change seems to me to be a short sighted approach. The change in culture will happen regardless of the prior culture as the new coach lays down his cultural changes as seen by him to be right.

This whole thread seems to be another back handed F' Pete and out with his ideas and bring in the new when there has been an established and competitive environment that has lead to positive results over it's tenure. For sure it was time for a change and change will naturally occur but JS wants it to hopefully include the positives created by the Carroll tenure and I for the life of me can't see anything wrong with that objective. Time alone will answer the question as Pete's shoes will be hard to fill except for the right guy. JS is carefully trying to find that guy.

 

[pmedic920]

I would just like to focus on the objective, observable facts instead of the subjective, ethereal musings we have about PC and Seahawks culture.

I have a few questions for those who believe PC was a great influencer of Seahawks culture. I'll give my answers and invite your counter argument.

1. I have often heard that players place the Seahawks at or near the top of their preferred employment choices. In the past ten years, how many blue-chip or top-tier Free Agents have come to the Seahawks? How many mid-tier FAs have signed at below-market compensation? How many replacement-level players have the Seahawks overpaid for? How many Seahawks FAs have re-signed here and given a 'hometown discount'? (The Seahawks have been unable to sign any top FAs. They have not brought in any above average players at a reasonable price. They have consistently overpaid for underperforming players. They have consistently overpaid their own FAs.)

2. Have the Seahawks found the correct balance between an individual-focused and a team-focused culture in terms of accountability and discipline? (I can't believe this is even a question. This is not a team culture we are seeing. The Seahawks are a collection of individuals that take the field and play as 11 guys instead of 1 team. There is no communication, no accountability, and no discipline. 'YOU BE YOU' has been taken to the extreme and the entire concept of TEAM (singular) has been pushed aside.)

2a. Does PC rely on the locker room to provide accountability, and what is his plan for when it is not working? (On his podcast, KJ has mentioned several times that whenever there was an issue with a player PC would go to one of his locker room leaders and ask him to confront the problem child and resolve it. Whenever the media asks PC a question he doesn't like he becomes a passive-aggressive snark master. When PC is let go, he throws shade at the lesser 'non-football' mere mortals who shouldn't be deciding his tenure. He oozes sarcasm when discussing JS's new responsibilities with "You asked for it. Good Luck!" PC is not good with confrontation. PC has lots of interpersonal skills. Constructive confrontation is not one of them, IMO. Sometimes peer accountability fails and top-down confrontation is required. PC has no effective strategy when this is the case.)

2b. Do you consider the Seahawks to be a disciplined team? (See 2a. The Seahawks have become one of the most undisciplined teams in the NFL. Penalties and missed assignments are the norm. Lack of effort has become common. Flat and lifeless is the product we now expect to see for most games.)

3. How many players do you see that unmistakably "leave it all on the field" or "give 100% on every play"? (DK. Spoon. Bobby. Charbs. ??? 2/11 on Defense and 2/11 on Offense isn't a good sign that the Seahawks players are motivated to play to their potential.)

4. What great coaching hires has PC made? How many of our coaches have been poached by other teams? (I have pages I could write here. I'll just stick with NONE.)

I have plenty to say about 'Seahawks Culture' but I'll just say it Ain't All That.

Good thoughts and questions.

My thought is this.

You/many say “Seahawk culture” almost as though it’s written in stone, and it always has been and always will be a particular way.
Hopefully it’s obvious but “culture” as it pertains here is fluid, I believe the culture that we are actually talking about is the culture that Pete brought/built.
That will be gone with PCs departure.
Some parts may remain as “tradition” but tradition and culture aren’t the same.

Pete’s style, methods, and philosophies were “the culture”, he’s gone and so is that culture.

Now it’s on to new and hopefully as good or better things/culture.

YMMV

 

[jammerhawk]

Do you really think there won't be some cultural retention? I sure do and the new culture hopefully will be a new culture that is also a long term winning culture.

 

[Jac]

Really? There are a lot of teams that try to emulate the positivity and team spirit ideas fostered by Coach Carroll. Nobody could possibly be the same as Pete Carroll but his ideas are not bad ideas.

I guess we'll see how hard it would be to continue a new version of the "Always Compete" ideas, but throwing the concept out just b/c of coaching change seems to me to be a short sighted approach. The change in culture will happen regardless of the prior culture as the new coach lays down his cultural changes as seen by him to be right.

This whole thread seems to be another back handed F' Pete and out with his ideas and bring in the new when there has been an established and competitive environment that has lead to positive results over it's tenure. For sure it was time for a change and change will naturally occur but JS wants it to hopefully include the positives created by the Carroll tenure and I for the life of me can't see anything wrong with that objective. Time alone will answer the question as Pete's shoes will be hard to fill except for the right guy. JS is carefully trying to find that guy.

The point being is that it's not terribly unique or culture-defining. The culture of professional football itself is the ultimate in competition, from the insanely long hours of preparation to the long odds of making a team to the long hours suffering in the gym to the millions that pay the incredible salaries. What part of "always compete" do we not inherently expect be part of our next coach's culture because it was so uniquely Carroll? I mean maybe we even get an enhanced version of it and players get benched for lackluster play, discipline issues, etc.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

1. Seattle has never gotten an advantage in Free Agency. If anything we seem to get less interest than other spots although some of that might be because of location. When we have signed guys we have needed to pay above market value more often than not because of it like you stated.

Obviously money talks, but many players have said they came here because of the culture, facility, team vibes with Pete, whatever you want to call it.

Luke Willson has said many times on the radio with various local radio stations that he was absolutely miserable in Detroit when Matt Patricia was the coach, and couldn't wait to get back to Seattle.

So yes, I do think in general beyond who'll give em the most money things like team culture matters.

 

[knownone]

If you evaluate an organization's culture based on free agency signings, you may not understand organizational culture or what it is. Culture is how you schedule your meetings, how you talk to your employees, how the hierarchy is structured, how conflicts are resolved, how discipline is levied, how beliefs and values are expressed and maintained throughout every level, etc., etc., etc. The product on the field is a product of that culture. And how appealing your team is to people on the outside is almost entirely irrelevant in a market.

I know many of you don't think Pete was a good coach. That's fine. But he helped build one of the NFL's most consistent and respectable organizations over the past decade and a half. If you think that's common, that it can be easily replicated, that the rest of the league has caught up, more power to you.

 

[renofox]

Obviously money talks, but many players have said they came here because of the culture, facility, team vibes with Pete, whatever you want to call it.

Luke Willson has said many times on the radio with various local radio stations that he was absolutely miserable in Detroit when Matt Patricia was the coach, and couldn't wait to get back to Seattle.

So yes, I do think in general beyond who'll give em the most money things like team culture matters.

Luke clearly stated why he retired (I think it was KJ's show? Sherman's?). Go find it and tell me again how all the players loved PC's 'culture'. Also find the same for Baldwin. They both clearly articulated that 'culture' was the reason they retired early.

 

[pmedic920]

Do you really think there won't be some cultural retention? I sure do and the new culture hopefully will be a new culture that is also a long term winning culture.

If you’re addressing my comment, I do think some segments will be retained but more so as “traditions”, I suppose more will remain if some of Pete’s staff remain with the team, and certainly as long as some of the players remain.

If the new HC hires completely new staff members I suspect less of the old and something different, especially as some of the main/core players move on to different things.

“just win baby” as an example.
That was a “culture” back in the day, now it’s a “traditional” catchphrase not much more.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Luke clearly stated why he retired (I think it was KJ's show? Sherman's?). Go find it and tell me again how all the players loved PC's 'culture'. Also find the same for Baldwin. They both clearly articulated that 'culture' was the reason they retired early.

It's your biased point, you go find it.

Willson was literally on KISW a month ago when Pete was let go telling Migs and Taryn about how much he loved Pete, and missed the Hawks playing in Detroit.

If you can't admit one of the big reasons Pete won so much here, and won so much in college is because of his culture? Then you're too far gone.

 

[renofox]

If you evaluate an organization's culture based on free agency signings, you may not understand organizational culture or what it is. Culture is how you schedule your meetings, how you talk to your employees, how the hierarchy is structured, how conflicts are resolved, how discipline is levied, how beliefs and values are expressed and maintained throughout every level, etc., etc., etc. The product on the field is a product of that culture. And how appealing your team is to people on the outside is almost entirely irrelevant in a market.

I know many of you don't think Pete was a good coach. That's fine. But he helped build one of the NFL's most consistent and respectable organizations over the past decade and a half. If you think that's common, that it can be easily replicated, that the rest of the league has caught up, more power to you.

So you are saying that candidate players don't have honest talks with Seahawks players and use that to inform their decision? Your view of OC is too narrow.

You say I may not know what I am talking about. I'm not going to present my CV. I'm just going to ask you to withhold your insults. If you were educated in OC less.than 20-30 years ago, our different analytical styles are based on the new OC paradigm in education. I assume that's why you are not using holistic analysis, since it is no longer taught.

 

[BGHawk]

Winning is the culture. If your TEAM wins..it improves everything, if you LOSE..it sucks..until you win again.

 

[renofox]

It's your biased point, you go find it.

Willson was literally on KISW a month ago when Pete was let go telling Migs and Taryn about how much he loved Pete, and missed the Hawks playing in Detroit.

If you can't admit one of the big reasons Pete won so much here, and won so much in college is because of his culture? Then you're too far gone.

Facts are biased now? Cool.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Facts are biased now? Cool.

Yes the fact that Willson publicly stated his affection for Pete.

Many prior players have stated their unhappiness with some things Pete did. That does not negate this conversation about culture. You don't win SB's and college championships during a 30 year elite level of success in any league without the ability to build a great culture.

Some of you guys hate Pete so much you can't even see straight. Let it go dude.

 

[knownone]

So you are saying that candidate players don't have honest talks with Seahawks players and use that to inform their decision? Your view of OC is too narrow.

You say I may not know what I am talking about. I'm not going to present my CV. I'm just going to ask you to withhold your insults. If you were educated in OC less.than 20-30 years ago, our different analytical styles are based on the new OC paradigm in education. I assume that's why you are not using holistic analysis, since it is no longer taught.

No. I am not saying that. I'm stating that a company's culture is rarely the driving force when making a life decision involving uprooting one's family. For example, you could offer me ten times my salary to work in the best organization imaginable, and I wouldn't even consider it if it was in Buffalo, New York. Culture is a relatively small variable in that equation. It significantly impacts retaining people but not attracting them in a market like the NFL.

I didn't quote you, nor did I read your post. I was speaking toward the recurring theme. So I apologize if you took my comment as an insult, it wasn't intended to be one.

 

[renofox]

No. I am not saying that. I'm stating that a company's culture is rarely the driving force when making a life decision involving uprooting one's family. For example, you could offer me ten times my salary to work in the best organization imaginable, and I wouldn't even consider it if it was in Buffalo, New York. Culture is a relatively small variable in that equation. It significantly impacts retaining people but not attracting them in a market like the NFL.

I didn't quote you, nor did I read your post. I was speaking toward the recurring theme. So I apologize if you took my comment as an insult, it wasn't intended to be one.

No worries, I overreacted.

I agree completely with what you're saying here. Culture is one small factor in many when recruiting talent. I just find it frustrating when so many people use "players want to come here because of PC's culture" but never respond to posts, like the one I made earlier in this thread, showing the opposite.

I am not "hating" on PC or discounting the positives of his form of OC when I critique the negatives. I am simply giving my opinion that his method of OC invariably leads to negative outcomes, that resultant problems were progressing beyond control, and that those outcomes were easily seen on and off the field. IMO, Jody canceled PC because he lost the culture war - he forgot that the organization comes before any member of the organization. Everybody's Replaceable.

 

[Mick063]

1. Seattle has never gotten an advantage in Free Agency. If anything we seem to get less interest than other spots although some of that might be because of location. When we have signed guys we have needed to pay above market value more often than not because of it like you stated.

2. I think the last couple of seasons this is a fair critique. We don't seem to be a team that plays as a team or a cohesive group, especially on defense. In regards to your comments on Pete during his presser I actually agree. It came across as snarky and bitter. I sort of get it but wasn't thrilled to see it because it does go against what he's preached the past 15 years.

2A. I don't vew them as disciplined unit. They are routinely near the top in penalties, DK laughed at the penalty board Pete said he uses to hold people accountable and its just an area that has never been really addressed. I think some of this is by design because Pete liked his teams playing on the edge and I'm ok with that. Seattle seems to have a lot of pre-snap stuff though too.

3. It's really hard to say? Don't feel comfortable answering but its a fair question.

4. It is odd if he's considered the ultimate culture/team builder that the rest of the league doesn't seem interested in adopting it. The league is a copycat league and most successful teams lose guys all the time.

Why don't I get the ignore option for you? This thread has provided that option for another. Why not you? This site even has moderators in the "I hate Pete" fan club?

 

[CallMeADawg]

Why don't I get the ignore option for you? This thread has provided that option for another. Why not you?

Can't ignore moderators.

 

[Mick063]

Can't ignore moderators.

Yes I can. The idea is to not read them. Right? I'll do whatever it takes to not read them. Enjoy your stay in the entitled whine fest. I promise you. It will never get better.

 

[CallMeADawg]

Yes I can. The idea is to not read them. Right? I'll do whatever it takes to not read them. Enjoy your stay in the entitled whine fest. I promise you. It will never get better.

Well I meant via the site software. It doesn't allow you to ignore moderators.

 

[Ozzy]

Yes I can. The idea is to not read them. Right? I'll do whatever it takes to not read them. Enjoy your stay in the entitled whine fest. I promise you. It will never get better.

You good? Don’t like an opinion different than yours?