Lofa: "You're Not Outcoached, You're Outplayed"

[AROS]

Watching the Lofa podcast and he mentions too often fans think coaching is the problem (and obviously sometimes it is). But he said as a player, he rarely thought it was on the coaches. To him, it's not about being outcoached as much as it is often being outplayed.

Thoughts?

 

[Maulbert]

Watching the Lofa podcast and he mentions too often fans think coaching is the problem (and obviously sometimes it is). But he said as a player, he rarely thought it was on the coaches. To him, it's not about being outcoached as much as it is often being outplayed.

Thoughts?

I do think Grubb needs to mix more runs in. That's on coaching.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Watching the Lofa podcast and he mentions too often fans think coaching is the problem (and obviously sometimes it is). But he said as a player, he rarely thought it was on the coaches. To him, it's not about being outcoached as much as it is often being outplayed.

Thoughts?

I think that would be the right mindset for Lofa to have as a player who was pretty ruthlessly competent.

All players should have a mindset that they are responsible for their own performance and outcomes. Same for students, same for workers, etc. The most effective people are self-reliant and self-motivated.

With that being said - I don't think Lofa's viewpoint is an objective truth so much as it is a mindset that works within an ecosystem.

If the coaches feel the same way ("It's on me to put them in better spots to succeed" "It's on me to solve schematic issues" "It's on me to develop the talent on my roster") then they'll say the same thing - that they can always do better and any loss is ultimately on them.

No one in this scenario is completely objectively correct, but that is the type of individual mindset that leads to success.

When I'm looking for root causes of issues, I look at each tranche of the organization and see what they're responsible for and how it fits with the issue. This almost always results in a finding of shared responsibility for issues but generally with one part of the org contributing more strongly to the problems.

For me, that's coaching right now. We're underperforming for our talent level and, even worse, we're regressing as the season goes on. Almost all of the issues can be traced back to sloppy execution across entire units rather than individual players, which is a telltale sign that something is being ineffectively installed by the coaching staff.

If DK flubs a route, K9 reads a block wrong, Geno throws an errant pass, or Laken Tomlinson double-teams the wrong guy - I'd say "dang it, we gotta fix that" to that specific player in my head. When it's the entire offense making mistakes and then making it even worse by being tremendously unbalanced, and then we see the same exact thing on defense (the problem being that players aren't fitting the run correctly and there's always 2 guys fighting for 1 gap regardless of the personnel on the field)...

I mean, I just can't keep seeing that over and over and over and say "yeah, the players just have to stop collectively being 53 massive idiots who have suddenly been struck by mental deficiencies" instead of just looking at the guys who install the scheme, install the playbook, craft the gameplan, run the practices, and call the plays. I just can't.

I don't want players blaming coaches, though. I'd want them thinking like Lofa, even if I don't think that they'd be objectively correct.

PS: Example to illustrate my thinking process: In 2022 and 2023, it was totally Hurtt's fault we sucked on defense. Sure, you can say Pete was culpable for hiring him (he was, terrible hire), and he did pay for it. But Hurtt was the actual party shitting up the defense because his scheme hybrid that he brought into the building sucked multiple asses, and his playcalls sucked.

I think the offense is being Clint Hurtt'd, frankly. Defense I think just needs time.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I mean, I just can't keep seeing that over and over and over and say "yeah, the players just have to stop collectively being 53 massive idiots who have suddenly been struck by mental deficiencies"

Suddenly Mael? Its been that way for 3 years now. I understand your point, I really do, I just don't see it the same way you do. I'm on Lofa's corner here.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Suddenly Mael? Its been that way for 3 years now. I understand your point, I really do, I just don't see it the same way you do. I'm on Lofa's corner here.

You're looking at this from a much further distance than I am, honestly.

I'm looking at specific issues rather than whether or not issues are present.

There are some issues that have carried over with gap control, but both of those issues point to confusion executing the scheme across most of the front 7 and including the DBs in run support. I think that's an indictment on the previous DC and I think it's not good to see happening currently.

I think that's solvable. I think Mike needs time to fix that, and probably another talented safety and LB. Mixture of issues there.

For offense, though... these are just entirely different issues. This is systemic across the line. It's not just guys like Anthony Bradford, Stone Forsythe, etc. getting beat because they're bad pass protectors and stuff like that, which was more accurate in 2023 under Waldron/Dickerson. It's not just a lack of creativity in the run game, like it was in 2022/2023.

The issue now is that they refuse to actually run the ball, and when they do, *all* of the linemen are blowing their assignments. Almost like they've received different play calls.

Sure, more talent is good. More talent is needed and important. But if I'm looking at what the current glass ceiling we're smashing into repeatedly is... it isn't that we don't have the talent to be better, it's that we don't have any concepts that we actually run like we've done them before. No staples.

 

[pittpnthrs]

You're looking at this from a much further distance than I am, honestly.

I'm looking at specific issues rather than whether or not issues are present.

There are some issues that have carried over with gap control, but both of those issues point to confusion executing the scheme across most of the front 7 and including the DBs in run support. I think that's an indictment on the previous DC and I think it's not good to see happening currently.

I think that's solvable. I think Mike needs time to fix that, and probably another talented safety and LB. Mixture of issues there.

For offense, though... these are just entirely different issues. This is systemic across the line. It's not just guys like Anthony Bradford, Stone Forsythe, etc. getting beat because they're bad pass protectors and stuff like that, which was more accurate in 2023 under Waldron/Dickerson. It's not just a lack of creativity in the run game, like it was in 2022/2023.

The issue now is that they refuse to actually run the ball, and when they do, *all* of the linemen are blowing their assignments. Almost like they've received different play calls.

Sure, more talent is good. More talent is needed and important. But if I'm looking at what the current glass ceiling we're smashing into repeatedly is... it isn't that we don't have the talent to be better, it's that we don't have any concepts that we actually run like we've done them before. No staples.

I understand, but we couldn't run the ball last year either. We're only attempting one less rush per game this season than last. One. It looks worse due to last week, but they average 21 rush attempts per game so far. Last season,,,,22.5.

 

[GemCity]

I think that would be the right mindset for Lofa to have as a player who was pretty ruthlessly competent.

All players should have a mindset that they are responsible for their own performance and outcomes. Same for students, same for workers, etc. The most effective people are self-reliant and self-motivated.

With that being said - I don't think Lofa's viewpoint is an objective truth so much as it is a mindset that works within an ecosystem.

If the coaches feel the same way ("It's on me to put them in better spots to succeed" "It's on me to solve schematic issues" "It's on me to develop the talent on my roster") then they'll say the same thing - that they can always do better and any loss is ultimately on them.

No one in this scenario is completely objectively correct, but that is the type of individual mindset that leads to success.

When I'm looking for root causes of issues, I look at each tranche of the organization and see what they're responsible for and how it fits with the issue. This almost always results in a finding of shared responsibility for issues but generally with one part of the org contributing more strongly to the problems.

For me, that's coaching right now. We're underperforming for our talent level and, even worse, we're regressing as the season goes on. Almost all of the issues can be traced back to sloppy execution across entire units rather than individual players, which is a telltale sign that something is being ineffectively installed by the coaching staff.

If DK flubs a route, K9 reads a block wrong, Geno throws an errant pass, or Laken Tomlinson double-teams the wrong guy - I'd say "dang it, we gotta fix that" to that specific player in my head. When it's the entire offense making mistakes and then making it even worse by being tremendously unbalanced, and then we see the same exact thing on defense (the problem being that players aren't fitting the run correctly and there's always 2 guys fighting for 1 gap regardless of the personnel on the field)...

I mean, I just can't keep seeing that over and over and over and say "yeah, the players just have to stop collectively being 53 massive idiots who have suddenly been struck by mental deficiencies" instead of just looking at the guys who install the scheme, install the playbook, craft the gameplan, run the practices, and call the plays. I just can't.

I don't want players blaming coaches, though. I'd want them thinking like Lofa, even if I don't think that they'd be objectively correct.

PS: Example to illustrate my thinking process: In 2022 and 2023, it was totally Hurtt's fault we sucked on defense. Sure, you can say Pete was culpable for hiring him (he was, terrible hire), and he did pay for it. But Hurtt was the actual party shitting up the defense because his scheme hybrid that he brought into the building sucked multiple asses, and his playcalls sucked.

I think the offense is being Clint Hurtt'd, frankly. Defense I think just needs time.

Can’t say it better than this.

 

[warden]

I do think Grubb needs to mix more runs in. That's on coaching.

Problem we run on first and second down we consistently face third and long

 

[Bobblehead]

I do think Grubb needs to mix more runs in. That's on coaching.

hOW many times have good RB's have slow first quarters, but still get the ball and by the middle of the 2nd qtr, they are gashing the defense and the passing game all of a sudden opens up?

 

[warden]

Well our DL our getting out played when they get turned.

In what appears to be tight congested area the RB will run towards the butt of a DL because he knows that lineman has been turned.

 

[keasley45]

Watching the Lofa podcast and he mentions too often fans think coaching is the problem (and obviously sometimes it is). But he said as a player, he rarely thought it was on the coaches. To him, it's not about being outcoached as much as it is often being outplayed.

Thoughts?

I agree for the most part. But there is more to coaching tham xs and os. Great coaches put their players in posotoon to succeed AND have the ability keep them in an opimal mental and emotiional state to win.

Give 2 staffs the exact same players (hypothetical) and put them head to head and the coaches who are able to elevate their guys and inspire them will win every time.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Give 2 staffs the exact same players (hypothetical) and put them head to head and the coaches who are able to elevate their guys and inspire them will win every time.

Pete couldn't do it. Who do you think could coach this roster to a post season run? I can't think of anybody.

 

[Rat]

I wouldnt expect Lofa to say anything different. He was the quintessential underdog who fought and clawed for everything he had. His entire career was a product of outworking everyone. Zero chance he would ever blame a coach for anything, even if he knew deep down that there an existence of an institutional problem with coaches who were culpable.

I respect the hell out of him, but he's not what you would call an unbiased source on this subject.

 

[toffee]

On the other hand, some quick turn around happened too.

Most 12s are well aware that Saleh was the Niners defensive coordinator from 2017 - 2020. All too aware, I might add. He inherited a team that ranked 32nd in both points and yards allowed. In his first season, he got the Niners to 25th and 24th, respectively. In 2018, the 49ers ranked 28th and 13th. By 2019, Saleh had them up to eighth and second overall. Again, that's points and yards allowed.

The team dropped off a bit in 2020, his last year before leaving for the Jets. Still, the Niners ranked a respectable 17th in points and fifth in yardage. Not surprisingly, Nick Bosa missed 15 games that year.

Seahawks desperately need to fix these problems before Week 9

The Seahawks face the same problems in Week 9 as in almost every other week.

12thmanrising.com

 

[Tech Worlds]

Says a guy that coaches now

 

[keasley45]

Pete couldn't do it. Who do you think could coach this roster to a post season run? I can't think of anybody.

What you are essentially saying is that our coaching staff is as good as any.

Give this team to Andy Ried and his staff and things would be different. Give it to Demeco Ryans and it would be different.
Give it to kyle Shanahan it would be different.

I would say Dan Quinn, but i wont.

It doesnt take super human powers to know that teams who dont play together (as a unit) who fight eachother, who have constant mental lapses... those are the hallmarks of badly coached teams at some level. This team does enough dumb stuff to beat itself every week.

I guess i'd ask you - you dont think the fact that our coaching staff is chock full of coaches who are doing their respective jobs in the NFL for the first time has no affect on the product you are seeing on the field? You are honestly looking past the o line coach, d line coach, o coordinator, d coordinator, special teams coach who all have a grand total of 8 weeks doing this, and saying its likely not them... its talent?

Players can smell weakness. They know when a motivational speech falls flat or when a message is off, over inflated or is wrong. The players who have been pkaying this gane longer than the coaches having been coaching it (at this level) know when the playcall is BS or when the correct adjustments arent being made. They know when the guy keading them is lost or unsure. And when those kinds of things happen again and again, trust is lost and chaos begins to reign. Players start to slowly check out and give up.

Do you think DK Metcalf would have ever gotten on a headset with Mike Holmgren and say ' can we call an Fing route that's deeper than the sticks '. The fact that DK is a hot head doesnt matter. He sees his OC and feels as though he can speak to him that way.

The inexperience of this staff in its totality is a huge part of this team's problems.

Mike may be a bonafide defensive genius... running HIS system. But how good is he at adapting that system to the players on this roster? It took him to this week to admit that the D wasnt able to get everything he wabted to do. Is that the players not being smart enough? Or is it a coach assuming that just because his approach worked in one place thats its going to work elsewhere.

Good coaching is adaptable. Sure, these players need to learn the system and how to play it. But if the staff just calls sh+ thats destined to fail because you dont have Roquan Smith in the middle calling things and cant modify their approach... arent they part of the problem?

I dont see a future where we dismantle the D piece by piece to fit an inflexible system as a bright one. Could it work? Maybe. It coukd also result in perennial frustration and defection among players. GOOD players who dont want to deal with a losing system - and Mike and his entire staff being shown the door before they ever sniff success. D

Hoping Mac can right size what he wants to do or tweak it to find success without 100% of the guys he wants to run it. Because i think we havr enough to be much better than we are.

I have a hard time seeing a defense that cant stop the run with a d line of Reed, Williams, Murphy, Nwosu and Mafe as being worth the squeeze. We just added one of the better ILB in the league and have talent in the secondary that is obvious. Pete was blasted for the belief that his system required elite talent to run it. Is that what Mac needs? Or maybe he can figure out you cant have splits along the dline as wide as he used to (splits that effectuvely neutralize the Edge player before the ballis even snapped) earlier than 5 weeks into a season.

Or, maybe the 11 guys on defense are just idiots and cant tell a 3-4 from a 10-4.

 

[CalgaryFan05]

Watching the Lofa podcast and he mentions too often fans think coaching is the problem (and obviously sometimes it is). But he said as a player, he rarely thought it was on the coaches. To him, it's not about being outcoached as much as it is often being outplayed.

Thoughts?

It's both.

Maybe we'll finally get a run game after 6 weeks of promises.

And maybe people will play with some enthusiasm, and not miss 78.5% of their assignments and/or do completely idiotic things consistently.

Yes. I'm in a funk. This season ******* sucks.

 

[MORGULON]

Watching the Lofa podcast and he mentions too often fans think coaching is the problem (and obviously sometimes it is). But he said as a player, he rarely thought it was on the coaches. To him, it's not about being outcoached as much as it is often being outplayed.

Thoughts?

WHAT? You think a pro bowl MLB knows more than the experts on . NET?

I'm not mad at you Aros.

Just a little disappointed

 

[GemCity]

We have the same, or better record, as 17 other teams.

If you would’ve told me that before the season began, I’d reply we’re right on track.

We could definitely use more talent in some areas.

But, this team’s performance, attitude, energy…just morale in general is a direct reflection of something not being ‘right’ at a coaching level.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple ‘one and dones’ after this season…and I doubt MM is one of those.

Speaking of MM..he strikes me as a no frills, X’s and O’s kind of guy. He’s someone I’d hire if I owned a business because I know he would get the job done. But, he appears to be missing a key element or perhaps I just haven’t seen it.

Players wanted to win for PC. The majority of former players under PC still talk highly of him…meet up in the offseason…he knew how to boost morale and always keep the team in a fight.

It was definitely time for change…unless your name is Mike Tomlin, a HC position is a revolving door in the NFL.

I have no doubt MM is, or will become a great leader. Not just a strategist…master of defensive scheming….but that intangible leadership quality of having those under you perform at their best level partly because they don’t want to disappoint you. They genuinely know you care and are proud of their success.

I’m not seeing that….

 

[keasley45]

We have the same, or better record, as 17 other teams.

If you would’ve told me that before the season began, I’d reply were right on track.

We could definitely use more talent in some areas.

But, this teams performance, attitude, energy…just morale in general is a direct reflection of something not being ‘right’ at a coaching level.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple ‘one and dones’ after this season…and I doubt MM is one of those.

Speaking of MM..he strikes me as a no frills, X’s and O’s kind of guy. He’s someone I’d hire if I owned a business because I know he would get the job done. But, he appears to be missing a key element or perhaps I just haven’t seen it.

Players wanted to win for PC. The majority of former players under PC still talk highly of him…meet up in the offseason…he knew how to boost morale and always keep the team in a fight.

It was definitely time for change…unless your name is Mike Tomlin, a HC position is a revolving door in the NFL.

I have no doubt MM is, or will become a great leader. Not just a strategist…master of defensive scheming….but that intangible leadership quality of having those under you perform at their best level partly because they don’t want to disappoint you. They genuinely know you care and are proud of their success.

I’m not seeing that….

Agree 100%

Folks tend to forget that Mac's greatest strength and potential liability is his introverted leadership style.

The benefit of his way has been discussed - Raven's defensive players loved him because he understood them on a personal level via his direct, person to person approach at communicating.

Thats THE strength of the introvert leader.

That strength becomes a weakness the larger the group being led. The reason is simple. Establishing the one on one connection is twice as hard and takes considerably longer when you are doing it for 53 men rather than 25 and have to also then nurture relationships with every coach on the team and not just the defensive position coaches.

What mitigates that potential weakness (in part) is having trusted advisors and assistants who have experience and are 100% versed in the method and philosophy so that they maintain the message and provide clarity and confidence.

Are Mike's assitants providing him that support in a way that helps get and keep everyone on the same page?

I'd bet good money that if mike were ONLY asked to run the defense and NOT the whole show, that the D would be playing better.