Pete Carroll Continues to be Redeemed

Hawkspeed

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An unproven conspiracy theory here, mods, feel free to delete:
  1. Pete really knows Russ, especially his fragile psychic. The Monday night game was the hammer, Pete made sure all the ex-players were there, fans would boo, and Pete willed the Hawks to win that game. In the end, fans booed, Sherm, Marshawn and buds were there, and Geno upped his game. We WON. Pete turn that tux and bow tie celebration into a humble pie.
  2. There were reports that Bronco teammates had to wait an hour on bus for Russ to get dressed, I speculate that Russ had a melt down in there, team Russ had to calm him down before he's ready to face the world.
  3. Pete's announcement of "He does what he was told" on Geno, it might be a message for Russ, I always question what play was sent to Russ over the headset on the super bowl INT. Ummm, "He does what he was told"??? Days before the national televised game? Another meltdown, this time on the field for all to see.
  4. Now, an avalanche of national media beating up on that sensitive nerves. Can go out for dinner without side eyes.
Pete babied Russ, he knows how much Russ needed protection. Pete also knew how to destroy Russ, and we are witnessing it. The antiqued "peteball" is powering Geno to be the top 5 QB in the league, it's pass happy and balanced. Pete is proving that his offense philosophy was what team3 has been laughing at, just that Russ couldn't execute those plays, or not willing, or "do what he was told".

As is, Russ may not bounce back, not with his fragile psychic, not with teammates side eyeing him, not with national media turning against him. not with Geno getting praises, not with Bronco fans booing him.

Pete the genius or evil is striking back, putting the pin where it hurts.

Will Russ survive? I think not, the Russ that we knew may be done.
This might be the best posting of the year! I have always been a fan of Pete and the "team friendly" and inclusive, but competitive culture that he brings. It seems like Pete as a person brings a lot of fun to life. But, as toffee suggests in this posting, Pete can "turn it around" too.

#3 or as I like to call him "@DangerPuss" has had a wonderful career and has done a lot of "publicly visible" things for the community. But, I still view him as a kind of a "traitor to his own roots". By being so "self serving", he has lost the friendship and respect of his team-mates here in Seattle and there are now signs of problems in Denver too. They are supposed to be a team that is re-building, but we now have their draft choices...and he is falling short.

"The Russ that we knew may be done"... His story for us is over, but Geno's career is blooming...he is getting the public acclaim and achieving professional stats that #3 only has dreams about at this point.
 
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Maelstrom787

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Whenever I see someone repeat that ridiculous mantra of "he is a defensive minded coach" I have a flashback of the gunfight at the end of Quigley Downunder. Watch it if you don't know what I'm referring to.
I gotta agree. This "offensive minded" and "defensive minded" crap has poisoned how we think of head coaches.
 

RiverDog

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The D WILL get better.

Big change this year in design but for the last couple of years I think the D was better than it appeared, but when you have a QB constantly going 3 and out, and taking sacks and putting the D on the field for more time than any other team you are bound to have defensive regression.

It will now change and turn around, trust me Pete will put it together in a few weeks of getting the system down.
We're ranked 31st in the league, so it can't help but get better as it can't get much worse. And as far as regression goes, it's not regressing as much as it's not progressing. We were terrible on defense last year, and the year before that, and the year before that....It's been 5 years since Pete has fielded a top 10 defense. This isn't a regression as much as it's a continuation of a trend that started long ago.

Converting to a new system doesn't account for all the missed tackles that has plagued us this season, nor is it an adequate explanation for our inconsistent pass rush.

I'm glad that you're confident that Pete will put it together in a few weeks, but I'm not holding my breath as recent history suggests that he won't. That's why he keeps throwing DC's into the volcano.
 

RiverDog

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pete's already vindicated for wilson. sorry to burst your bubble. that's how bad wilson has been without pete and how good he's made geno smith look. wilson's and geno's comparative performance thus far have been substantive enough to justify that vindication. geno will have his ups/downs. we just UPGRADED to geno smith. let that sink in. no, geno isn't the long term answer, but neither was wilson. yet, we just saved $250m and got 2 1sts / 2nds out of the broncos for a severely limited qb in visible decline. pete won that trade, the gripe i have is that wison probably should have been traded 2-3 seasons ago. and pete didn't want to give up on wilson, so it set us back years. and that's on pete.


wrong. you're smoking crack

2021) 11th in PPG allowed
2020) 16th in PPG allowed
2019) 19th in PPG allowed
2018) 13th in PPG allowed
2017) 9th in PPG allowed

from 2017-2021 the D wasn't great, like 2012-2016 great, but it wasn't near 2022 bad (31st so far). if anything, 2022 is an outlier thus far. and let's see, we have a new D coordinator, new schematic front, and very few "solid" D players on the roster. oh, and you still need good players to win in the NFL. repairing this defense will take time and new personnel. sure, blame pete all you want for the current setup, i do too, but you're reaching when you say pete is incompetent at implementing defense. reaching. who gets credit for assembling and implementing the most dominant defense of the modern era (2012-2016)? i'll wait.


what a disgusting take. yuck. pete getting vindicated in the wilson situation doesn't somehow exonerate him of all wrongdoing. nobody on these forums thinks pete is a genius. please stop making sh*t up.



don't worry dude, pete's only got a couple years left in the tank. and after he retires, everything will be perfect like it was before he came along...

View attachment 54976
You're polishing turds. Yards per game is the most commonly accepted metric for ranking defenses. That's why they list it first in statistical categories.

2021 28th in Total Yards per Game
2020 22nd in Total Yards per Game
2019 26th in Total Yards per Game
2018 16th in Total Yards per Game
2017 11th in Total Yards per Game


You have to go all the way back to the 2016 season to find a Pete Carroll defense ranked in the top 10 in Total Yards per Game.
 

Rainger

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You're polishing turds. Yards per game is the most commonly accepted metric for ranking defenses. That's why they list it first in statistical categories.

2021 28th in Total Yards per Game
2020 22nd in Total Yards per Game
2019 26th in Total Yards per Game
2018 16th in Total Yards per Game
2017 11th in Total Yards per Game


You have to go all the way back to the 2016 season to find a Pete Carroll defense ranked in the top 10 in Total Yards per Game.
see my previous post you are missing the point with bullshit stats. How much of that was because the bloody hawks D was on the field 45 minutes a game because the O was always 3 and out with a sack and a holding penalty trying to bail out a QB running backwards and to the side??
 

RiverDog

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see my previous post you are missing the point with bullshit stats. How much of that was because the bloody hawks D was on the field 45 minutes a game because the O was always 3 and out with a sack and a holding penalty trying to bail out a QB running backwards and to the side??
Bullshit stats? And what do you call your points per game stat? The gold standard?

I gave you a commonly accepted metric. You challenged my honesty by accusing me of making things up, and I just showed you what I was referring to.

There are a number of ways a person can quantify a defense's performance, such as yards per attempt, first downs, opponent 3rd down conversions, red zone defense, time of possession, and so on. I chose to use total yards as IMO it's more objective than points per game as both offense and special teams can surrender points. A missed FG or XP isn't necessarily the result of good defense. Yards per game (passing + rushing) is the exclusive domain of the defense, and its why ESPN, NFL.com, and other sites list total yards/yards per game first ahead of other metrics like PPG.

If you want to justify or explain the stats I gave you, then fine, have at it. But they are easily verifiable facts and not something I made up.
 
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Palmegranite

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How much of that was because the bloody hawks D was on the field 45 minutes a game because the O was always 3 and out ......
This makes no sense.

If the offence was always 3 and out, it means the opposing D was very good. If Seattle D was on the field for 45 minutes, it generally points to a very poor defence.
 

RiverDog

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This makes no sense.

If the offence was always 3 and out, it means the opposing D was very good. If Seattle D was on the field for 45 minutes, it generally points to a very poor defence.
TOP is a stat that's influenced by both offensive performances as well as defensive.

Last season, we had a very poor TOP record, dead last in the league at 25:17. It was the product of both our porous defense, ranked 28th in total yards, and our offense that was ranked in the bottom 1/3 on third down. This season, our TOP is marginally better, ranked 27th at 28:13, an improvement due solely to our offense doing a much better job of moving the chains as we're ranked 2nd in 3rd down conversion percentage, but the defense is even worse than it was last season, meaning that they can't get off the field, hence our TOP still sucks.

And just so I don't get accused of making things up, here's the links to the stats that I quoted above:


 

Fade

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Pete isn't redeemed until he can prove he can build a top level defense and do something in the playoffs. That is his philosphy, and he is currently failing. Wilson being bad right now, doesn't make Pete Carroll good. If only it were that simple.
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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Bullshit stats? And what do you call your points per game stat? The gold standard?

I gave you a commonly accepted metric. You challenged my honesty by accusing me of making things up, and I just showed you what I was referring to.

There are a number of ways a person can quantify a defense's performance, such as yards per attempt, first downs, opponent 3rd down conversions, red zone defense, time of possession, and so on. I chose to use total yards as IMO it's more objective than points per game as both offense and special teams can surrender points. A missed FG or XP isn't necessarily the result of good defense. Yards per game (passing + rushing) is the exclusive domain of the defense, and its why ESPN, NFL.com, and other sites list total yards/yards per game first ahead of other metrics like PPG.

If you want to justify or explain the stats I gave you, then fine, have at it. But they are easily verifiable facts and not something I made up.
Considering that the team with the most points at the end of the game wins, I could easily see that stat as the gold standard, or really the only standard that matters.
 

pittpnthrs

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see my previous post you are missing the point with bullshit stats. How much of that was because the bloody hawks D was on the field 45 minutes a game because the O was always 3 and out with a sack and a holding penalty trying to bail out a QB running backwards and to the side??

Or how much was it because the D progressively got worse and couldnt get off the field?

The defense is not good and hasent been for a long time.
 

Recon_Hawk

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Pete isn't redeemed until he can prove he can build a top level defense and do something in the playoffs. That is his philosphy, and he is currently failing. Wilson being bad right now, doesn't make Pete Carroll good. If only it were that simple.
Give Pete a couple of years. We know the negative impact paying your qb 20% of your cap can have on building a team. Add in years and years of having draft capital in the bottom half of the league from consistently making the playoffs and it makes sense why there's going to be weak spots on the team.
 

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Oh, no, consistently making the playoffs year after year with a franchise QB. It's a miracle the fans kept coming back for more...success.....and winning.
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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Pete isn't redeemed until he can prove he can build a top level defense and do something in the playoffs. That is his philosphy, and he is currently failing. Wilson being bad right now, doesn't make Pete Carroll good. If only it were that simple.
It actually is pretty simple. You, Fade, will fight kicking and screaming and post maximally worded posts that in the end say very little. Keep fighting the truth. Keep building your narrative. Keep hating all things Pete. It is quite comical.

The current state of the defense is not nearly as bad as you have been complaining about. Listening to former players (Moyer, Wyman, Bumpus, Roberts, Trufant, Babineaux, Jones et. al.) who study film, and identify where the mistakes have occurred are much more reasoned and optimistic.

The defense is making mistakes which have resulted in big plays, but they will continue learning and growing together. According to numerous actual professionals who have played the game and studied what is happening, the mistakes are not based upon scheme or ability and are all correctable. I am confident things will be corrected and the defense will improve.

Even the best defenses give up plays and yards and points. Mistakes will continue for the Seahawks, as they will occur for every other team in the league on both sides of the ball. That's what makes football fun, interesting, and exciting. The mental game from play to play, drive to drive, quarter to quarter, half to half.

Pete is such a great coach, in part because he will guide his players to develop and learn and grow and he trusts the coaches, other players, and former player to support and assist in the development of each player.

If a player doesn't work to improve then Pete will replace them, he's done it before and he'll do it again. Thankfully, whether a fan thinks a player should be replaced is irrelevant to when or if Pete does decide to replace a player.

Football is so far from a stat sheet that using stats alone to argue something is missing the bigger picture of the mental aspect, the execution, the reactions and the tells - the game within the game. The synergy between offense, defense, and special teams cannot be determined by watching all-22 or looking at stats alone.

You may believe you make very cogent arguments but your data set is necessarily limited because you have no idea what is happening in the meetings, at practice, in the film room, in the middle of the night, on a zoom call and you cannot even know for certain what is happening on the field even if you think you can see everything. Unless of course you are all knowing of what is in the plan and the hearts and minds of everyone involved.

I get you enjoy trying to prove your superior football knowledge, but your words have become quite empty, especially when looking at something beyond a simple stat line.

Keep at it, I look forward to your shift as the defense improves. Maybe a bad Geno day and a good defense day with shift your focus to the offense for a week.

But we all know your through-line is not about the offense or the defense. Your whole purpose is to prove that Pete Carroll is inept, and the game has passed him by.

As the Seahawks find success, even when they are competitive in a loss, you will become perhaps the lone voice claiming you are right as the Seahawks develop and move positively into the next successful iteration.
 
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Maelstrom787

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Pete isn't redeemed until he can prove he can build a top level defense and do something in the playoffs. That is his philosphy, and he is currently failing. Wilson being bad right now, doesn't make Pete Carroll good. If only it were that simple.
I'm not saying that he's perfect, but on the topic of the handling of Russell Wilson, he certainly is being increasingly exonerated as the season progresses with Geno playing great football and Russell destroying his own legacy.
 

RiverDog

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Considering that the team with the most points at the end of the game wins, I could easily see that stat as the gold standard, or really the only standard that matters.
It's the only stat that counts when kept on the scoreboard, but it can be misleading when it's being used to rank a defense.
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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It's the only stat that counts when kept on the scoreboard, but it can be misleading when it's being used to rank a defense.
That's the nature of stats and ranking. Both tend to be misleading and are easily used to make a point that is not true when the larger context is considered.

I get it that it is part of the fun on a message board to discuss and use stats to support an opinion. Though stats may be the best people can do here, using stats alone seldom proves much in the bigger picture, hence as things improve or don't fit the hard fast narratives, good or bad, the narratives need to change.

Some people can admit that their hyperbolic beliefs were wrong as the results change and others don't.

As bad as the Seahawks defense looks statistically, it's not that difficult to pick a set of stats to show that they are great. Clearly, the reality is much more nuanced and somewhere in between the extremes.

The Seahawks under Pete Carroll have developed over time, and that past experience helps me be more balanced looking toward the future. If the team gives up 500+ yards and 45 points every game going forward and they lose a lot as a result, then the extreme negative take will have been warranted, but 4 games into the season? I'm not in the least concerned.

Actually, I look forward to the development and progress that I expect to come on all sides of the ball.
 

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Oh, no, consistently making the playoffs year after year with a franchise QB. It's a miracle the fans kept coming back for more...success.....and winning.
Is this towards my comment? If so, re-read what I said. I wasn't complaining. Just pointing out when you build around a franchise QB it leaves a lot less for other positions. We're 26th in the league in defensive cap hit recognition with 58.6M. Our biggest cap hit this year is Russell Wilson with $26M. Nearly half of our entire defense (which includes Jamal Adam's 9.1M hit on IR)

Next year will be the Pete's greatest chance to address the defense in years.
 

RiverDog

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That's the nature of stats and ranking. Both tend to be misleading and are easily used to make a point that is not true when the larger context is considered.

I get it that it is part of the fun on a message board to discuss and use stats to support an opinion. Though stats may be the best people can do here, using stats alone seldom proves much in the bigger picture, hence as things improve or don't fit the hard fast narratives, good or bad, the narratives need to change.

Some people can admit that their hyperbolic beliefs were wrong as the results change and others don't.

As bad as the Seahawks defense looks statistically, it's not that difficult to pick a set of stats to show that they are great. Clearly, the reality is much more nuanced and somewhere in between the extremes.

The Seahawks under Pete Carroll have developed over time, and that past experience helps me be more balanced looking toward the future. If the team gives up 500+ yards and 45 points every game going forward and they lose a lot as a result, then the extreme negative take will have been warranted, but 4 games into the season? I'm not in the least concerned.

Actually, I look forward to the development and progress that I expect to come on all sides of the ball.
It's also only 4 games into the season, still a small sample size, at least for this season. Plenty of time to get it turned around.

I get the fact that statistics can be misleading. You know the saying: There's liars, damn liars, and then there are statisticians. But in this case, I think they do a pretty good job of telling a story of how our team, and specifically our defense, has regressed over the years.

Take a look at our defensive ranking by season during the entire Pete Carroll era and tell me that you don't think our defensive ranking tells a story of the relationship between our championship teams and our mediocre ones:

2010 27th
2011 9th
2012 4th
2013 1st
2014 1st
2015 2nd
2016 5th
2017 11th
2018 16th
2019 26th
2020 22nd
2021 28th
2022 (after 4 games) 31st


I could put our W/L record behind those rankings, but I don't think I need to go to the trouble as being the dedicated Seahawk fan that you are, you shouldn't have to be told which years it was that we fielded our most competitive teams.
 
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