Pete Carroll Continues to be Redeemed

[Maelstrom787]

The signs were always there, and the truth is blinding at this point.

 

[seatownlowdown]

"pETe wAS HolDinG WilSoN baCK"



TO ALL YOU RUSS APOLOGISTS,

 

[Spin Doctor]

Depends. I think blame lies on both parties here. It sounds like Pete Carroll didn't manage Russell Wilson very well here. Sounded like there wasn't much accountability towards Wilson. Pete coddled him as a player, so much so according to Sherman that he intervened when they said something simple such as "You suck" after baiting him into a pick. That's the sort of thing that defensive players said to the offense all of the time in middle school and high school after a play was made. He shielded him from criticism and fostered poor behavior and habits on Wilson part.

Russell Wilson is also accountable because at some point he stopped trying to grow as a player. He became more obsessed with stroking his ego and growing his brand. I'm not even sure how much he cares about the game anymore. He came into the season looking like he was 30-40 pounds overweight. He failed to take ownership of his mistakes. He said all of the right things in public but behind closed doors his reputation was different among the team. His own teammates came out and said they flat out don't like him, this including his number one receiver -- Doug Baldwin.

Managing egos is hard, even if you do it perfectly it can get rough. In this case I don't think Pete is blameless for everything that transpired. We also need to understand in this whole "wasting Pete's prime" mantra is his defenses have been pretty lackluster since 2017. The offense has been floating this team for quite some time, and the Seahawks have funneled massive amounts of picks into the defense, specifically in high draft picks for minimum return. We specifically have failed at finding a competent pass rusher and D-Line talent has been a hit or miss. The O and D coordinators we've hired -- specifically guys like Cable, Bevell, Schottenheimer and Ken Norton Jr. have also been retreads with poor track records. They also were kept along for way past their expiration date.

Schottenheimer is the only one of these guys that I think was alright in the long run. I think he was just brought in because he had a reputation for being a hard ass that was a QB guru. He was known for making his guys toe the line. I look at him as a last ditch effort to mold Wilson into a more prototypical QB. Him and Norton Jr. had reputations for being old school, no nonsense you better toe the line or else sort of guys. This happened after a tumultuous 2017 campaign, both on the field and in the locker room.

Schottenheimer succeeded in some regards at first. In 2018 and part of 19 he was playing more from the pocket and hitting more of those short passes. He was doing more conventional 3 step drops and such and looking okay at it. He then regressed back into the Wilson we all know at some point.

Can't just point to Wilson here, but I do give Pete credit for finally offloading Wilson. This is a complex tale and it's impossible to know exactly how everything played out behind closed doors or to what degree Pete appeased Wilson and what detriment it had on both of their careers. I definitely think Pete has been thinking about trading Wilson for a very long time now. There were reports of the Bears and the Seahawks talking back before Wilson's last extension leading to a no-trade clause (lol karma's a bitch Wilson). There were also rumors of John Schneider personally attending games and pro-days of Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes. This relationship has been strained for a very long time, I think longer than we know.

 

[sc85sis]

Depends. I think blame lies on both parties here. It sounds like Pete Carroll didn't manage Russell Wilson very well here. Sounded like there wasn't much accountability towards Wilson. Pete coddled him as a player, so much so according to Sherman that he intervened when they said something simple such as "You suck" after baiting him into a pick. That's the sort of thing that defensive players said to the offense all of the time in middle school and high school after a play was made. He shielded him from criticism and fostered poor behavior and habits on Wilson part.

Russell Wilson is also accountable because at some point he stopped trying to grow as a player. He became more obsessed with stroking his ego and growing his brand. I'm not even sure how much he cares about the game anymore. He came into the season looking like he was 30-40 pounds overweight. He failed to take ownership of his mistakes. He said all of the right things in public but behind closed doors his reputation was different among the team. His own teammates came out and said they flat out don't like him, this including his number one receiver -- Doug Baldwin.

Managing egos is hard, even if you do it perfectly it can get rough. In this case I don't think Pete is blameless for everything that transpired. We also need to understand in this whole "wasting Pete's prime" mantra is his defenses have been pretty lackluster since 2017. The offense has been floating this team for quite some time, and the Seahawks have funneled massive amounts of picks into the defense, specifically in high draft picks for minimum return. We specifically have failed at finding a competent pass rusher and D-Line talent has been a hit or miss. The O and D coordinators we've hired -- specifically guys like Cable, Bevell, Schottenheimer and Ken Norton Jr. have also been retreads with poor track records. They also were kept along for way past their expiration date.

Schottenheimer is the only one of these guys that I think was alright in the long run. I think he was just brought in because he had a reputation for being a hard ass that was a QB guru. He was known for making his guys toe the line. I look at him as a last ditch effort to mold Wilson into a more prototypical QB. Him and Norton Jr. had reputations for being old school, no nonsense you better toe the line or else sort of guys. This happened after a tumultuous 2017 campaign, both on the field and in the locker room.

Schottenheimer succeeded in some regards at first. In 2018 and part of 19 he was playing more from the pocket and hitting more of those short passes. He was doing more conventional 3 step drops and such and looking okay at it. He then regressed back into the Wilson we all know at some point.

Can't just point to Wilson here, but I do give Pete credit for finally offloading Wilson. This is a complex tale and it's impossible to know exactly how everything played out behind closed doors or to what degree Pete appeased Wilson and what detriment it had on both of their careers. I definitely think Pete has been thinking about trading Wilson for a very long time now. There were reports of the Bears and the Seahawks talking back before Wilson's last extension leading to a no-trade clause (lol karma's a bitch Wilson). There were also rumors of John Schneider personally attending games and pro-days of Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes. This relationship has been strained for a very long time, I think longer than we know.

I suspect Pete protecting Wilson back in the mid-2010s was part of his "learn the learners" approach. He had a franchise QB who was sensitive to criticism, so he acted accordingly. Per KJ, Russ did receive more constructive feedback/criticism on Tell the Truth Mondays as the years went on. But back around 2014, he was still a young QB, so Pete protected him more. The problem was, Richard and others saw it only through their lens, which is a very natural, human thing to do.

Is it possible Pete should have handled that differently? Absolutely. He's not perfect. But we're also looking back with 20/20 hindsight.

 

[bileever]

It's too early in Russ's Denver career to know how it will ultimately turn out, but right now, it sure looks like Russ never realized that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. He apparently didn't think about the advantages of playing in Seattle--the easy press corps, the patient and forgiving fanbase and from what I could see, a fairly responsive coach and front office (they had 3 offensive coordinators in 5 years, just for him). In Denver, he's already being booed because he doesn't have 9 years of goodwill built up and the press has been merciless, calling him a choker and a fake. Not good for someone who might be a little sensitive. And maybe he needed the strictures imposed by Pete on his play that set him up for success. I'm just glad we're not paying $245 million for even the best version of Russell Wilson because it's pretty hard to win that way.

 

[Ozzy]

Everyone is quick to say see I was right! but really its so early in the process that lets see how it plays out. Lets say Russ is washed and he continues his downward spiral....it doesn't change the fact that he was an absolute monster for 10 years here and near league best during that process. The wanting to re-write history like his success was solely because of Pete or that it was all smokescreens and mirrors is ridiculous. Boo the hell out of him, root for him to be bad because we benefit from it is all fair game, trying to act like he always was the problem or even a problem is dumb.

 

[CalgaryFan05]

Everyone is quick to say see I was right! but really its so early in the process that lets see how it plays out. Lets say Russ is washed and he continues his downward spiral....it doesn't change the fact that he was an absolute monster for 10 years here and near league best during that process. The wanting to re-write history like his success was solely because of Pete or that it was all smokescreens and mirrors is ridiculous. Boo the hell out of him, root for him to be bad because we benefit from it is all fair game, trying to act like he always was the problem or even a problem is dumb.

He wasn't always the problem. He got paid. Ciara showed up. Those two things killed him IMO. He got tubby and slow - couldn't run his way out of his technical problems. Ciara = hollywood. Mr. Unlimited showed up.

He's gone now - and I can't help but laugh every time I watch him with the Donks. He's got this "omg - i actually have to work" look in his eyes.

I think he became 'unmanageable'. I truly do. I think pete didn' t know how to deal with it as it changed. I've had employees like that. Sometimes they just go 'off the rails' and you can't get them back on. I think pete rues the last extension. THAT is when pete looked like he'd been kicked in the nuts - "Let russ cook" -

Pete's good in my book. He also looks like he's healed mentally from the fiasco - and mostly back to his old self, however long we've got him for. I like what we've got. Pete never needed redemption in my eyes - he needed a life preserver thrown to him!

 

[SeaWolv]

If you watched the NFL pregame MRob said RW needed to take leadership of the offense and Steve Smith said RW is not a team leader. Smith then channeled Marshawn and said "Boss ain't about that action." To which MRob responded that there were so many layers to Smith's comments and then stopped himself from going further saying he should probably not say anymore.

I'm sure RW is a nice guy an all but every time I heard him trying to encourage his teammates he was always saying repetitive things like "let's play great today" over an over. I'm not sure that kind of thing comes across as genuine to his teammates.

This kind of stuff could explain in part why Sherman and others from the SB team left when they did.

 

[Ozzy]

I think they see him as genuine just goofy and it can wear on people. But MCourty on the NFL network said he is close friends with that whole team and almost everyone likes Russ and that its only a couple of guys seeking attention who don't like him. Who knows. I don't think you're all wrong though and what you say makes some sense

 

[DJrmb]

Pete Carroll

On the count of wasting a franchise QBs prime by holding him back you're found: not guilty

On the count of having an outdated archaic offense that no longer works in the NFL you're found: not guilty

On the count of mistakenly trading away a franchise QB for less than he was worth you're found: not guilty

 

[keasley45]

Everyone is quick to say see I was right! but really its so early in the process that lets see how it plays out. Lets say Russ is washed and he continues his downward spiral....it doesn't change the fact that he was an absolute monster for 10 years here and near league best during that process. The wanting to re-write history like his success was solely because of Pete or that it was all smokescreens and mirrors is ridiculous. Boo the hell out of him, root for him to be bad because we benefit from it is all fair game, trying to act like he always was the problem or even a problem is dumb.

His failure is not a surprise and the play youre seeing has been there for years. Its not going to suddenly improv. Sure. He may have games where he looks goof, but the issue is that yes, when he was here, Russ was a highlight machine and saved games when he went improv. But he saved games we shouldn't have been behind in or that shouldn't have been as close as they were. Yes, he's hella accurate and a gamer, but the only years we were ever good at consistently moving the chains within the rhythm of a called offense was in 2013 to 15 and in 2019. The rest of the time, we relied on defense, and our running game. And that failure at being able to run a consistent offense where you are diagnosing a defense and getting the ball where it needs to go with anticipation and timing... that's what Hackett needs from him. And it's the one thing that Russ can't do.

The guy is a paradox.

He struggles to do the fundamentals when he's not playing HIS game to a degree that's mindblowing. Yet, his individual skill at just playing football (not to be interpreted as executing football plays accurately) was so high that when he was just allowed to do that, he looked phenomenal and was able to smooth over his mistakes.

The only way Russ recovers is if he goes back to doing the exact same stuff he did here. But that would require NatHack to toss out the creativity he was hired for and script a Peteball offense for his 245mil qb.

And I think it's pretty obvious now that Peteball was the duct-tape solution that allowed us to field a competent offense around here for years.

Peteball was Russ's meal ticket.

 

[BamKam]

“Let’s not forget about the 10 years he had with us!”

“Move on hes with another team”

Lol I am slurping all of this up. Everyone is thankful for Russ did here, it’s not about that. It is about the monumental meltdown the 12s had after the trade throwing poop at Pete and Schneider and running off anyone and everyone that pointed out Russ has been declining and it was a great deal. “You are an idiot!!! It’s so hard to find a franchise QB!!! We will be terrible for a decade!!!!!!”.

It also makes it much more delicious as we slowly find out how inauthentic Russ was behind the scenes the past few years too. There’s a reason why he’s not chums with many of the old LOB super bowl squad and now you are even starting to see it come out of the younger players since Geno has popped off.

Vindication.

 

[toffee]

An unproven conspiracy theory here, mods, feel free to delete:

1. Pete really knows Russ, especially his fragile psyche. The Monday night game was the hammer, Pete made sure all the ex-players were there, fans would boo, and Pete willed the Hawks to win that game. In the end, fans booed, Sherm, Marshawn and buds were there, and Geno upped his game. We WON. Pete turn that tux and bow tie celebration into a humble pie.
2. There were reports that Bronco teammates had to wait an hour on bus for Russ to get dressed, I speculate that Russ had a melt down in there, team Russ had to calm him down before he's ready to face the world.
3. Pete's announcement of "He does what he was told" on Geno, it might be a message for Russ, I always question what play was sent to Russ over the headset on the super bowl INT. Ummm, "He does what he was told"??? Days before the national televised game? Another meltdown, this time on the field for all to see.
4. Now, an avalanche of national media beating up on that sensitive nerves. Can go out for dinner without side eyes.

Pete babied Russ, he knows how much Russ needed protection. Pete also knew how to destroy Russ, and we are witnessing it. The antiqued "peteball" is powering Geno to be the top 5 QB in the league, it's pass happy and balanced. Pete is proving that his offense philosophy was what team3 has been laughing at, just that Russ couldn't execute those plays, or not willing, or "do what he was told".

As is, Russ may not bounce back, not with his fragile psyche, not with teammates side eyeing him, not with national media turning against him. not with Geno getting praises, not with Bronco fans booing him.

Pete the genius or evil is striking back, putting the pin where it hurts.

Will Russ survive? I think not, the Russ that we knew may be done.

 

[Hawkpower]

Everyone is quick to say see I was right! but really its so early in the process that lets see how it plays out. Lets say Russ is washed and he continues his downward spiral....it doesn't change the fact that he was an absolute monster for 10 years here and near league best during that process. The wanting to re-write history like his success was solely because of Pete or that it was all smokescreens and mirrors is ridiculous. Boo the hell out of him, root for him to be bad because we benefit from it is all fair game, trying to act like he always was the problem or even a problem is dumb.

The responses you see here are 100% due to Russ' behavior in the final days, etc

He threw Pete and his teammates under the bus to prop up his own shortcomings

He made his bed. He can lie in it

 

[sprhawk73]

RW was truly a blessing but became a burden for the Seahawks. And if things go well, he will become a blessing again.

He turned out to be more than enough for what we needed to win a super bowl and he left us with an awesome parting gift, the potential to win another.

I wish him well but understand that pretending catches up to everyone eventually. His ability to scramble and amazing accuracy offset his height limitation. And that was fine because he didn't have to carry our SB team. He was exactly what we needed when we had the LOB and Marshawn but not enough without them.

 

[Ozzy]

The responses you see here are 100% due to Russ' behavior in the final days, etc

He threw Pete and his teammates under the bus to prop up his own shortcomings

He made his bed. He can lie in it

I don't see it that way but I think its reasonable.

 

[FloridaSeahawk18]

This is a worst case scenario for Russell - a national game that turns into a total embarrassment, with a wide open receiver to end the game that he blatantly misses. It's not the coaches fault, the playcall, the refs, the running game, but his inept execution in front of millions. The sad thing is Denver will fire Hackett in a week or two when I'm not sure scheme-wise it's even been bad, Russ is just dropping the ball like he always has when expected to play within a structure.

It reminds me of Merrill Hoge who talked about how Manziel can't play within the structure of an offense - kind of uncanny how this sounds like their 10-year $250m vet now. I feel like I'm listening to Keasley talk about Russell in this vid.

 

[BamKam]

RW was truly a blessing but became a burden for the Seahawks. And if things go well, he will become a blessing again.

He turned out to be more than enough for what we needed to win a super bowl and he left us with an awesome parting gift, the potential to win another.

I wish him well but understand that pretending catches up to everyone eventually.

Yes but he was not THE reason we won the Super Bowl. He was the perfect QB for us when he complimented the defense and running game with his timely moon balls and picking up 1st down with his legs.

It started going down hill when he became mr celebrity and started playing hero ball, which is what has been happening now and the last few seasons. We tailored the team around him, first his weapons weren’t good enough, then he didn’t have a defense, then it was the play calling yada yada yada all while essentially threatening to request a trade if things didn’t turn around.

Well looks like we found what the problem actually was, just took awhile. The Seahawks are 100000000x more enjoyable to watch now, even with how awful the defense is.

 

[seatownlowdown]

His failure is not a surprise and the play youre seeing has been there for years. Its not going to suddenly improv. Sure. He may have games where he looks goof, but the issue is that yes, when he was here, Russ was a highlight machine and saved games when he went improv. But he saved games we shouldn't have been behind in or that shouldn't have been as close as they were. Yes, he's hella accurate and a gamer, but the only years we were ever good at consistently moving the chains within the rhythm of a called offense was in 2013 to 15 and in 2019. The rest of the time, we relied on defense, and our running game. And that failure at being able to run a consistent offense where you are diagnosing a defense and getting the ball where it needs to go with anticipation and timing... that's what Hackett needs from him. And it's the one thing that Russ can't do.

The guy is a paradox.

He struggles to do the fundamentals when he's not playing HIS game to a degree that's mindblowing. Yet, his individual skill at just playing football (not to be interpreted as executing football plays accurately) was so high that when he was just allowed to do that, he looked phenomenal and was able to smooth over his mistakes.

The only way Russ recovers is if he goes back to doing the exact same stuff he did here. But that would require NatHack to toss out the creativity he was hired for and script a Peteball offense for his 245mil qb.

And I think it's pretty obvious now that Peteball was the duct-tape solution that allowed us to field a competent offense around here for years.

Peteball was Russ's meal ticket.

who knew that backyard football wouldn't be sustainable in the NFL?

 

[warden]

Pete Carroll

On the count of wasting a franchise QBs prime by holding him back you're found: not guilty

On the count of having an outdated archaic offense that no longer works in the NFL you're found: not guilty

On the count of mistakenly trading away a franchise QB for less than he was worth you're found: not guilty

On the charges of Grand Theft and Robbery against the Broncos. Guilty