My "average guy" take on the Seahawks PED issue

Tical21 · May 22, 2013

Haha apologist much?

Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.

volsunghawk · May 22, 2013

Tical21":19r56x9h said:
Haha apologist much?

Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.

I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

blue 22 · May 22, 2013

AVL":3dfw1zr1 said:
We have no one to blame but ourselves as viewers/ fans of the media/ entertainment industry.
Almost all of this is run through advertising dollars which relies on viewer/ listener ratings.
What attracts more attention than bad news, especially someone else ? Bad news sells much better than good news.
It feeds to the majorities (our opponents) hopes.
In non-competitive "news" I guess shows what sick puppies we can be judging by what is often getting the best ratings.

Exactly. Misery Sells.

hawksfansinceday1 · May 22, 2013

sutz":2az49x8x said:
[youtube]46bBWBG9r2o[/youtube]

Got the bubbleheaded bleach blonde
Comes on at five
She can tell you 'bout the plane crash
With a gleam in her eye
It's interesting when people die
Give us dirty laundry

Scottemojo · May 22, 2013

volsunghawk":ibe1gttt said:
Tical21":ibe1gttt said:

Haha apologist much?

Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.

Click to expand...

I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.

BirdsCommaAngry · May 22, 2013

volsunghawk":1ksoqex0 said:
To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

Unfortunately, it isn't idiotic. Look at the Japanese educational systems. They use similar methods of continuous improvement and a competitive culture to successfully produce academic excellence in their students, but they also have higher instances of student suicide. We might been experiencing similar a trade-off with our methods and culture - although it is of a less extreme and more manageable nature. Nevertheless, even good methods have fall-out and increased PED use might be ours for the time being.

Tical21 · May 22, 2013

volsunghawk":3j792h0x said:
Tical21":3j792h0x said:

Haha apologist much?

Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.[/
I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

Click to expand...

Good point about Shanahan. Players coach isn't the applicable trait. Maybe The more correct trait is to say a coach that emphasizes things higher than discipline, a win at all costs mantra. At any rate, to think Pete's attitude isn't playing any role is quite far fetched. There are coaches that don't tolerate these kinds of things and there are coaches that do. Pete needs to get control.

Tical21 · May 22, 2013

Scottemojo":10vucsft said:
volsunghawk":10vucsft said:

Tical21":10vucsft said:

Haha apologist much?

Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.

Click to expand...

I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

Click to expand...

On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.

Fair enough. Take the math out. It is still 5 guys. How many would indicate a systemic problem?

Scottemojo · May 22, 2013

Tical21":1f6adl2b said:
Scottemojo":1f6adl2b said:

volsunghawk":1f6adl2b said:

I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

Click to expand...

On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Take the math out. It is still 5 guys. How many would indicate a systemic problem?

Shit if I know. I think at least half the NFL is on HGH or something else, so I think the entire NFL is systemic. Wrong guy to ask. I was just laughing at the crap math you used to support your premise. 3 years of results vs 1 year of roster=Tical supporting some supposition.

volsunghawk · May 22, 2013

BirdsCommaAngry":v8we6978 said:
volsunghawk":v8we6978 said:

To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it isn't idiotic. Look at the Japanese educational systems. They use similar methods of continuous improvement and a competitive culture to successfully produce academic excellence in their students, but they also have higher instances of student suicide. We might been experiencing similar a trade-off with our methods and culture - although it is of a less extreme and more manageable nature. Nevertheless, even good methods have fall-out and increased PED use might be ours for the time being.

It's got nothing to do with Carroll and everything to do with the fact that the NFL is a competitive league, and teams can cut players at a moment's notice. Contracts are usually laden with performance-based incentives.

If these guys want to get paid and KEEP getting paid, they've got to outperform the next guy and win.

There's the competitive culture. Carroll's not the first guy to peddle that, nor will he be the last.

dunceface · May 22, 2013

volsunghawk":2hl733zd said:
Tical21":2hl733zd said:

Haha apologist much?

Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.

Click to expand...

I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

Yeah its really just these young guys learning how the testing goes in the NFL. In college it was prob easy for them to use PEDs and get away with it.
Now they know they have to be more careful about the timing of the tests and they will be more successful with their drug taking like all the other players getting away with it around the league :th2thumbs:

Tical21 · May 23, 2013

Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.

RichNhansom · May 23, 2013

Aren't the two leading teams in suspensions also the two youngest teams in the league? If that is correct then isn't there just a little to much coincidence to ignore?

Cartire · May 23, 2013

RichNhansom":ngbla7gi said:
Aren't the two leading teams in suspensions also the two youngest teams in the league? If that is correct then isn't there just a little to much coincidence to ignore?

I dont think anyone doubted coincidence. Everyone from the beginning that knows what their talking about knows the youth factor is huge.

volsunghawk · May 23, 2013

Tical21":27qmvnrr said:
Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.

Never said anything about whether Carroll was "too good" or not. But if you think that the Seahawks players got caught because of Carroll's competition mantra, then you're desperate for a scapegoat. Do you think the other 31 teams are like, "Competition? Never heard of it"? Do you think that players on the other 31 teams just don't worry about losing their starting jobs or getting cut at all?

Here's the deal, and it's something that Schneider alluded to when he was talking about this issue. PED use is EVERYWHERE. It's not just in Seattle. Schneider talked about it being common in college from what he's seen. Sherman indicated that it's pretty widespread, too. Smoke posted anecdotes to that effect in this very thread.

So it's not because Carroll preaches competition or because he's a "players' coach" that Seahawks players are getting caught. It's because those players were young and careless.

By the way, nice cherry-picking with your "out of the last 23 players busted" crap.

Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?

RichNhansom · May 23, 2013

volsunghawk":r8uls9t9 said:
Tical21":r8uls9t9 said:

Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

Ouch, facts hurt. That was almost mean the way you did that.

BirdsCommaAngry · May 23, 2013

volsunghawk":1mv4cymj said:
It's got nothing to do with Carroll and everything to do with the fact that the NFL is a competitive league, and teams can cut players at a moment's notice. Contracts are usually laden with performance-based incentives.

If these guys want to get paid and KEEP getting paid, they've got to outperform the next guy and win.

There's the competitive culture. Carroll's not the first guy to peddle that, nor will he be the last.

They still get paid unbelievably well even when they aren't out performing their competition or achieving their incentives. If they're on a roster for a season, they're rich, but I digress:

It's not what PC peddles but the way he peddles it and the culture of our team. An established but unspectacular player on the Dallas Cowboys can make more than players here and do so while performing worse. This is because their coaching staff isn't as capable of successfully inserting newer players into the mix and JJ is much less capable at obtaining talented youngsters to push out the veterans. Sure, we share some elements with the entire league, but we're clearly not playing that part of the game the exact same way. We're better at obtaining, implementing, and succeeding with younger players, which is tumultuous to those who haven't yet established themselves.

What I'm suggesting is maybe PC's process, the process responsible for much of our success, is like every other human process on the face of this earth and it isn't perfect or black and white or whatever other illusion we're entertaining. Maybe the warts of our system are of a variety that just might increase the likelihood of our guys using PEDs, and yes, it does have something to with PC even if it is tolerable in the grand scheme of what he's done. Why this general concept is hard to understand is something I do not know. Maybe you've mistaken me for a buffoon foolishly looking for a scapegoat instead of someone theorizing about one little facet in the ambiguity of all things human.

Tical21 · May 23, 2013

volsunghawk":1p53s6pj said:
Tical21":1p53s6pj said:

Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.

Click to expand...

Never said anything about whether Carroll was "too good" or not. But if you think that the Seahawks players got caught because of Carroll's competition mantra, then you're desperate for a scapegoat. Do you think the other 31 teams are like, "Competition? Never heard of it"? Do you think that players on the other 31 teams just don't worry about losing their starting jobs or getting cut at all?

Here's the deal, and it's something that Schneider alluded to when he was talking about this issue. PED use is EVERYWHERE. It's not just in Seattle. Schneider talked about it being common in college from what he's seen. Sherman indicated that it's pretty widespread, too. Smoke posted anecdotes to that effect in this very thread.

So it's not because Carroll preaches competition or because he's a "players' coach" that Seahawks players are getting caught. It's because those players were young and careless.

By the way, nice cherry-picking with your "out of the last 23 players busted" crap.

Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?

Whatever dude. I don't give two poops about the Redskins. Who cares if they have more. So, the Seahawks have 5 of the last 25 players suspended. The Seahawks make up 3% of the NFL, yet are guilty of 20% of the most recent suspensions. Maybe the Redskins are higher. All it means is both the Redskins and Seahawks have pretty major issues.

I didn't once, not once, say a single thing about Carroll's competitive philosophy having anything at all to do with this. You could listen to any coach, and any player, at almost any level, and you're going to hear that competition is a major theme. That is no excuse. A coach has to preach that. I place zero blame on Carroll for that. I blame Carroll, and Shanahan, for not curbing this a long time ago. Could you see a world where Belichick has so many players suspsended? Tomlin? Coughlin? Heck, Holmgren? Harbaugh? Do you think this crap would fly in any of those locker rooms? Close your eyes. Can you even come close to picturing that?

Lets quit the song and dance and cut to the chase, shall we? In your opinion, why is it that the Seahawks and Redskins have so many problems with players being caught for PED's, and so many other teams have no problem at all?

canfan · May 24, 2013

I do think this whole issue does relate back to the organization as a whole. John and Pete have shown a willingness to give guys who have made questionable decisions in the past a chance to make this team. I for one applaud them for it, but it also means you are going to have at least some of them continue to make questionable decisions. Are we really surprised when some of them screw up? I love that this is a team that gives the players every opportunity to be their best, but they are also given enough rope to hang themselves and some of them are bound to do it. What is going to be more telling is what will happen when we have a repeat offender?

I like what happened with Josh Portis a lot. He missed curfew in Miami last year and was cut. They gave him a second chance this spring and he blew it. Now he is gone. Will Pete have the same conviction to cut a player who isn't a 3rd string QB? I don't know, but I sure hope so, because these guys HAVE to get the message that by trying to help themselves they are hurting the team and that can't be allowed.

drdiags · May 24, 2013

I thought Tom Coughlin's NYG had 3 players suspended for PEDs in the same time frame so the soft players coach slant doesn't seem to pass mustard. Something is wrong with the Seahawks message to their players but I don't think it can all be put at the feet of the coach. Maybe the team is taking on more high risk players to allow them to turn around so quickly? They have taken on a few guys like this in Portis, Bowie, #Humblethug, Michaels, Irvin, McCoy and others. They have taken medical risks or injured players in Leon Washington, Walter Thurmond or Williams.

Maybe they can restrict the risks they had to take now that they have a more talented team? Pete has his share of the blame but if one is going to moan about his style, get comfy in it because until he leaves I doubt he changes. He will leave if the team collapses and Allen shows him the door or he decides to hang it up. Or a mutual parting of ways after his contract is up. And someone has to show me how he is this image of Mr Softy with his players behind closed doors.

I see him being pumped and jacked but I have seen some cold-blooded moves as well from him and the FO. I doubt anyone is being coddled. But this is just an opinion with no way to prove or disprove.

FYI: Here is the link to PED suspensions done by Sando where the NYG had 4 suspensions from 2010-2013

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/100145/seahawks-lead-in-ped-bans-under-carroll

2010-13 PED Suspensions

Seattle Seahawks 5
Denver Broncos 4
New York Giants 4
New England Patriots 3
Washington Redskins 3
Cincinnati Bengals 3
Houston Texans 3
St. Louis Rams 3
Atlanta Falcons 2
Arizona Cardinals 2
Minnesota Vikings 2
Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2
Carolina Panthers 2
Miami Dolphins 2
San Diego Chargers 2
Tennessee Titans 2
Chicago Bears 1
Green Bay Packers 1
New Orleans Saints 1
Baltimore Ravens 1
Cleveland Browns 1
Pittsburgh Steelers 1
Buffalo Bills 0
Detroit Lions 0
Jacksonville Jaguars 0
Indianapolis Colts 0
Kansas City Chiefs 0
New York Jets 0
Oakland Raiders 0
Dallas Cowboys 0
Philadelphia Eagles 0
San Francisco 49ers 0
Total 50

Notice Belicheck's Patriots are near the top with 3 while NYG has 4. Now how is this still just a Shanahan and Carroll not curbing their players issue? This is a league wide issue. Suspensions are suspensions so not going to go through them to determine which had special circumstances. Seahawks have an issue but so do other teams.

My "average guy" take on the Seahawks PED issue

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