Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

Popeyejones":225wjss7 said:

I just don't really know how you pay a QB of his talent who you only want throwing the ball 25 times a game. .

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To answer your question all you had to do last night is look across the sideline at Kirk Cousins soaking up 80M guaranteed because the Vikings along with 25 other NFL teams were desperate to find a good QB.

We'll pay Russell because the alternative is to become one of the dozens of have nots desperate each and every year drafting and signing old veterans to insane contracts like the Vikings and 80% of the league.

The number of throws is irrelevant. We'll pay Russell because if we don't we become one of the have nots again.........and anyone who's been around here since the beginning knows what that's like.

Oh yeah, 100% agreed they're going to pay him. If inferior QBs like Cousins are getting paid they're obviously gonna pay him.

TBH I'm just interested in it for thought experiment of it, as it IS atypical.

Popeyejones":3eqi9c3q said:

Oh yeah, 100% agreed they're going to pay him. If inferior QBs like Cousins are getting paid they're obviously gonna pay him.

TBH I'm just interested in it for thought experiment of it, as it IS atypical.

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We've had the same discussions since Russell signed his first contract, and so has every fanbase that's had to pay their top 10 QB big money.

Guarantee you fans in Minny, GB, Washington, SF, Detroit, Atlanta.......and hell I got a buddy in NE that is still pissed that they kept Brady and traded Garappolo.

But again, IMO unless you have a Mahomes type of QB already on your roster ready to go, you have no choice but to keep and pay your top 10 QB.

Forget the number of throws and concentrate on the # of TD's, picks, wins, and game winning drives.

Pete does indeed need Russ, because his game keeps us close, and a clutch QB is crucial to his formula.

Popeyejones":2aqjt35h said:

Oh yeah, 100% agreed they're going to pay him. If inferior QBs like Cousins are getting paid they're obviously gonna pay him.

TBH I'm just interested in it for thought experiment of it, as it IS atypical.

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How are his passing attempts comparitive to other top end QBs in seasons past?

Because focusing his next contract on this last 13 games while ignoring his capabilities when used in a pass oriented offense assumes that this run heavy offense wont be balanced with better players at skill positions in the future.

zchurch74":373lyawz said:

They lost a lot but they are smart enough to not make that dumb of a play.

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Yes, it's not as if Tom "Smart Enough" Brady took a sack that ran the clock out when his team had a chip shot field goal available and no time outs before the end of the half against the Dolphins this week.

Popeyejones":3fj7bmi6 said:

Oh yeah, 100% agreed they're going to pay him. If inferior QBs like Cousins are getting paid they're obviously gonna pay him.

TBH I'm just interested in it for thought experiment of it, as it IS atypical.

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On of the reasons Wilson is so effective is that we *don't* throw 35 times a game.

The running game is designed to be consistently picking up small chunks - this is the rushing equivalent of the WCO dink-and-dunk. 4 yards at a clip marching down the field, dare you to stop us. It forces the defense to respond, because at 4 yards per run you eventually reach the end zone every time.

We force the defense to respond by putting an extra defender in the box, keeping in mind that we're already tying up a defender shadowing Wilson who is a legit rushing threat himself. This then opens up one-on-one opportunities or holes in zone coverage. Wilson takes advantage of those to throw daggers.

That's his job in this offense - make big plays. They don't come from the running game, generally. The running game is there to be boringly efficient. The QB is there to take advantage of the handful of opportunities each game where the defense nods off.

It's critical, then, that we have the QB who can take full advantage of those opportunities. That's why Wilson will make the big bucks, and why Schotty's offense failed in other places where he didn't have the QB who could land the knockout blows. This almost happened last night when Wilson had a bad night and struggled to hit on the long balls and almost threw a pick-6 before the half.

Fortunately, Wilson has many more good nights than bad nights - to the extend we're #1 in the NFL in prime time games since 2012.

Popeyejones":3ai3jt1r said:

Mad Dog":3ai3jt1r said:

evergreen":3ai3jt1r said:

That was a scary stupid play. Like, real low football IQ. I’m sure the other greats have embarrassing moments too. Man was that bad! I remember him taking a sack at the end of the half against Atlanta in 2012-2013 and we never got the fg attempt. Lucky we didn’t need it tonight!

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It wasn’t a scary stupid play. If Wilson doesn’t slip he had two open receivers on the backside of that play. But he slipped, couldn’t escape the rush, knew a sack or grounding ended the half, tossed it as far as he could hoping for a miracle or getting it out of bounds.

Once he slipped, the half was over.

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It wasn't a scary stupid play because Wilson slipped. It was a scary stupid play because if Eric Kendricks hadn't have slipped it would have been a pick six the other way.

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Eric Kendricks ain’t that fast.

It was a Hail Mary. I’m sure Wilson knew he couldn’t ground it or take a sack so his only option to get points was heave it into coverage and hope it goes incomplete or a WR makes a play. I’m sure in that half second he wasn’t going through every permutation.

He should have chucked it away as soon as read 1 was covered but Russ can be his own worst enemy as far as extending plays go. But that’s Russ. Not sure he’ll ever change. And tbh his optimism is often worth the negative plays.

bmorepunk":y3s12x9g said:

zchurch74":y3s12x9g said:

They lost a lot but they are smart enough to not make that dumb of a play.

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Yes, it's not as if Tom "Smart Enough" Brady took a sack that ran the clock out when his team had a chip shot field goal available and no time outs before the end of the half against the Dolphins this week.

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Thank you! Let's also remember how the first half ended when Tom made his only visit to Seattle. With the Pats down close to our goal line, Tom threw it out the back of the endzone, where there were no receivers. Intentional grounding, 10 second runoff, no field goal.

Without that dumb mistake from Brady, the late big bombs to Sidney don't matter, and we don't win 24-23.

Popeyejones":78wxxhxq said:

Ambrose83":78wxxhxq said:

I thought you would be better then this... This game aside he makes throws each game very very few can make..... He also has the intangibles you can't coach ... H es worth every penny he gets throwing 25 times a game.....

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I think you might be misreading me and thinking I'm insulting him.

I'm 100% not insulting him, nor am I saying he doesn't make throws very very few can make (he's the best deep ball passer in the game IMO) or that he doesn't have uncoachable intangibles (although TBF I think that's pretty overrated when it comes to the best players).

One of the reasons QB contracts have skyrocketed is because offenses have increasingly become QB centric.

The Seahawks are winning with a decidedly non-QB centric offense, which I think impacts how much a QB is *worth to the Seahawks*, now how much Russell Wilson is worth.

In terms of touches they're basically treating him like a rookie. He's down there with Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Josh Allen in terms of how much the offense is being run through him.

As a point of comparison, Marcus Mariota's next contract will ALSO be interesting, in that he's kinda like a D-List Russell Wilson (a fairly talented guy instead of an incredibly talented guy, but who COMPARATIVELY is just a smaller part of how his offense tries to win).

Maybe this is the best way to put it:

I think it's 100% obvious that if you put Wilson on the open market as a FA he'd sign the richest QB contract in the NFL, and be worth that contract. The question is if he's worth that contract to the Seahawks. I think they'll obviously do it, but the offense isn't really designed to have a 30 million plus APY QB at its helm in the way they're currently running it.

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But why does that matter ? Is argue H es worth it with what they are asking of him... But that's just me .

Popeyejones":3cfjihz2 said:

Ambrose83":3cfjihz2 said:

I thought you would be better then this... This game aside he makes throws each game very very few can make..... He also has the intangibles you can't coach ... H es worth every penny he gets throwing 25 times a game.....

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I think you might be misreading me and thinking I'm insulting him.

I'm 100% not insulting him, nor am I saying he doesn't make throws very very few can make (he's the best deep ball passer in the game IMO) or that he doesn't have uncoachable intangibles (although TBF I think that's pretty overrated when it comes to the best players).

One of the reasons QB contracts have skyrocketed is because offenses have increasingly become QB centric.

The Seahawks are winning with a decidedly non-QB centric offense, which I think impacts how much a QB is *worth to the Seahawks*, now how much Russell Wilson is worth.

In terms of touches they're basically treating him like a rookie. He's down there with Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Josh Allen in terms of how much the offense is being run through him.

As a point of comparison, Marcus Mariota's next contract will ALSO be interesting, in that he's kinda like a D-List Russell Wilson (a fairly talented guy instead of an incredibly talented guy, but who COMPARATIVELY is just a smaller part of how his offense tries to win).

Maybe this is the best way to put it:

I think it's 100% obvious that if you put Wilson on the open market as a FA he'd sign the richest QB contract in the NFL, and be worth that contract. The question is if he's worth that contract to the Seahawks. I think they'll obviously do it, but the offense isn't really designed to have a 30 million plus APY QB at its helm in the way they're currently running it.

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Great post.. :2thumbs:

He had a pretty bad game for his standards. I'm sure plenty of the Russ bashers are gonna' come out of the woodwork this week. Even though he made the plays he needed to when it counted and they WON the game. :roll:

I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say that a QB's worth is based on how much he's asked to throw the ball. That is completely system-dependent. Could Russ throw it more and a pure west-coast system? I have no doubt.

In fact, the exact opposite can be true. A QB that throws less must make more of each throw, thus completions, turnover %, yards per attempt, clutch throws at the end of quarter/game and under pressure (blitz/broken play), these are the stats that matter. Many teams in the NFL will play Russ for these qualities because he's worth it. He is elite in these categories. And don't forget Russ's ability to get yards on the ground. He may no longer be a running QB, but as this past game showed, he's a weapon, pure and simple.

A team also pays for leadership and Russ has that coming out of his pores. Players around him have confidence in him being a winner, and competitive beyond measure. That is also worth a lot. You can't coach up some of these abilities; they're either inherent to the athlete or absent.

And it was very rare that guys were open on Monday. Sometimes, believe it or not, it's ok to give a lot of credit to the opponent. The coverage on our WR's and TE's was the best we have seen all year, bar none.

zchurch74":tzv3tugh said:

This is why Russ is not Elite. very Good! But not elite!!!!

What’s your excuse for this? Take away the circumstances and that was dumber then the super bowl play.

There is nothing you can say or a reason you can give. He is also missing throws tonight. He does look great with his RPOs but he is not winning with his arm. To be elite you must be on top of all parts of your game.

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Wow, this truly is weak and pitiful on the part of some of you. Quiet for weeks and seizing on one opportunity. Really weak and shows how desperate some of you critics are getting

On Monday, Wilson had 20 attempts for 72 yards, and 63 rushing yards. Including a big play to help seal the game. Against a Great Vikings defense

The week before that, Brees had 28 attempts for 127 yards. There was no big play to seal the game. Brees also threw a bad interception. Against a Great Cowboys defense

Earlier this year, Brady threw for 133 yards on 26 attempts, and an int. Against the freakin Lions


You all have got to stop being opportunists and be balanced. If Russ had mostly bad games this year and one or two good games, you wouldn’t see us running in here like “Ah Ha!!” See we told you so

RCATES":tzv3tugh said:

My argument is the same as it’s always been on why Russ isn’t elite. He’s terribly inconsistent. Outside a few great timely runs he was god awful last night. Minnesota loaded the box and said beat us with RW’s arm. It worked for them for the most part. Luckily the defense was lights out last night. It could have been ugly.

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That’s not what they did...they blanketed our receivers. Vikings were great on the back end.

Also Wilson isn’t Blake Bortles...he wasn’t facing 9-man boxes...just stop

Ad Hawk":bq6ezb3b said:

I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say that a QB's worth is based on how much he's asked to throw the ball. That is completely system-dependent. Could Russ throw it more and a pure west-coast system? I have no doubt.

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We know what Russell looks like when he has to throw it more...........he leads the league in getting sacked, and ends up getting hurt.

Efficiency, that's all that matters.

- TD/Int efficiency
- Red Zone efficiency
- 4th quarter efficiency
- explosive play efficiency
- playoff efficiency

Russell is tremendous in all of these things. So unless we draft a Mahomes type that we're 90% sure can come in and be another top 5-10 QB? Then we have no choice but to keep the Russell Wilson train rolling and pay the man.

Ad Hawk":dyl32j2d said:

I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say that a QB's worth is based on how much he's asked to throw the ball.

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I don't really get what's confusing about this.

A top tier FS is worth more to a cover 3 heavy team than a cover 2 heavy team.

A top tier slot WR is worth more to the Rams than the Panthers.

The same slot CB is worth more to a team that uses Nickel as it's base personnel than one which doesn't.

The same FB is worth more to a team that uses 22 personnel more than 11 personnel.

An NT is worth more to 3-4 teams than to 2-4 teams.

The Seahawks have a lower % of pass attempts than any other team in the NFL by a WIDE MARGIN.

The difference between the 31st ranked team in run % and a middle of the pack team is 5 percentage points. The difference between the 31st ranked team (the Titans) and the 32nd ranked team (the Seahawks) is a ANOTHER 5 percentage points. :lol:

To be clear, I think Wilson deserves to get paid, Wilson is going to gate paid, and it's going to be the Seahawks who are paying him, but I just don't think the logic here is that confusing.

If you wanna go for it on fourth down all the time, you're probably gonna consider not spending as much on a punter. It's all pretty simply, IMO.

Funny thing was....as soon as he threw that, I turned to my friend and said "Oh boy, dot net is going to loving this tomorrow." :lol:
That along with me yelling "what the hell are you doing?" Yes, the Russ homer gets plenty angry when he does something stupid. The difference is, I don't worry about it because he makes up for it later almost always.

SoulfishHawk":3m1uuan9 said:

He had a pretty bad game for his standards. I'm sure plenty of the Russ bashers are gonna' come out of the woodwork this week. Even though he made the plays he needed to when it counted and they WON the game. :roll:

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By two scores in fact.

He took what the defense gave him which was a ton of rushing yards. They covered the WR's and TE's very well. Looking at the All Access it never appeared that Wilson was frustrated at all with how the game was going. They were going to keep pounding and Russ made them pay for double coverage by scrambling for 40 yds down the sideline to ice the game.

But yeah, he ruined peoples fantasy playoffs so he sucks.

Same people were cheering when he made that HUGE run on 2nd and long. Another TD was barely missed by a foot going out of bounds. Yes, he wasn't good, but coming off a number of games where he was ridiculous good, for people to come in here and pounce is lame. Does bashing your QB actually feel good???