Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

[Popeyejones]

A QB that is efficient, protects the ball well, can hit the difficult throws and plays his best in the 4th quarter is valuable to any team in this league at the highest of pay levels.

Yes. Absolutely. I don't think anybody has debated that.

 

[chris98251]

I think the value of your QB is wins your team gets from his play. Now someone please try to argue that all the wins he has under his belt isn't a elite stat for his years in the league regardless of the supporting cast. Other Elite QB's have had just as many chances to rack up a win total. We have a special mix here that allows Wilson to be Wilson and the Staff and front office compliment him well.

Any legendary QB will have a similar cast of characters. Montana and Walsh, Bradshaw and Noll and that front office and the Steel Curtain. Aikman and that defense and Johnson and Irvin and Smith. It goes on.

But it takes a special blend.

 

[KiwiHawk]

It's a team sport, folks. One of the reasons our run game is successful is because we can throw the ball. One of the reasons we have disproportionate success with long balls is because we run the ball. They feed on each other. Take out the QB and the running game falls down, too.

Everything we do is predicated on having Wilson as a pass/run threat, and Carson/Penny/Davis as a rushing threat. It works best when we do both, because it means the defense can't sell out on either one, and because it means our offense dictates what their defense does, and not the other way around.

The instant they stack the box, we hit for a big pass play over the top, because we're waiting for exactly that opportunity, because we are setting up exactly that opportunity with the run game. The running game delivers the body blows that open up the haymaker from the QB.

But you MUST have a QB who can land that haymaker on a regular basis. And that's why Wilson will get his money.

 

[Ad Hawk]

It's a team sport, folks. One of the reasons our run game is successful is because we can throw the ball. One of the reasons we have disproportionate success with long balls is because we run the ball. They feed on each other. Take out the QB and the running game falls down, too.

Everything we do is predicated on having Wilson as a pass/run threat, and Carson/Penny/Davis as a rushing threat. It works best when we do both, because it means the defense can't sell out on either one, and because it means our offense dictates what their defense does, and not the other way around.

The instant they stack the box, we hit for a big pass play over the top, because we're waiting for exactly that opportunity, because we are setting up exactly that opportunity with the run game. The running game delivers the body blows that open up the haymaker from the QB.

But you MUST have a QB who can land that haymaker on a regular basis. And that's why Wilson will get his money.

Great argument, Kiwi. Not every QB in the league can make those throws with consistency.

(The fact that Moore had a probable TD catch from Russ this last game should also be considered when discussing Russ's "horrible" game)

Russ will get paid, and is worth every bit of it to the Hawks, I have no doubt. In fact, in many ways he is exactly the QB Pete would want. How many other teams would pay for RW's services? I would bet more than 10 right away.

It's fine to consider his stats and place him between Ryan and Rivers in one category (completions, I think was said), but you cannot ignore the other things Russ brings to the game. This isn't about looking at QBs in a vacuum; the person matters. Yes, people come to appreciate or dislike a "person," and so it gets personal when discussing them. But in Russ's case, you cannot look at numbers alone--many of which are fabulous and show him to be top-5 in the league across the board except of attempts--you must also add in the ability to win when it matters. The Panthers game is a great example.

 

[Sgt Largent]

I explained it, it's not pass attempts or yards, it's efficiency.

I hear what you're saying and I get it, but it's not JUST efficiency either.

Because this is a Seahawks board let's just entirely avoid Russell Wilson or the Seahawks.

Just for clean argumentation (read: this is sake of argument stuff, neither of us care if it's true or not) let's use 2018 QB rating as a stand in for efficiency.

Russell Wilson's efficiency comps are Matt Ryan (3 points lower in QB rating) and Phillips Rivers (3 points higher).

So, from here on out we're just going to be talking about Matt Ryan or Phillips Rivers. We're gonna pretend they're the same age, etc., etc., and talk about their value on the open market.

My argument is that if Ben Roethlisberger retires and Marcus Mariota is allowed to hit FA, Matt Ryan is worth more to the Steelers than he is to the Titans.

That's because in his ideal version of his offense Mike Tomlin wants to be throwing the ball 2/3rds of the time, and in his ideal version of his offense Mike Vrabel wants to be throwing the ball only 1/2 the time.

Matt Ryan or Phillip Rivers is worth more to the Steelers than he is to the Titans because on the Titans on 1/6th more of the plays his job is to turn around and hand a ball, and on the Steelers on 1/6th more of the plays he's asked to be the great QB that he is.

That's it.

If you wanna swap out the Titans for the Seahawks, the only difference for the Seahawks is that it's 1 out of every 5 plays (20%) instead of 1 out of every 6 plays.

Efficiency is about how good a player is. I'm talking about how much a player is used. If I said the 9ers backfield is better than the Seahawks backfield because the 9ers fullback is better, you would rightly tell me that this is a stupid argument because the Seahawks don't even use a fullback. You would be right and I would be wrong because I had confused efficiency for usage. :2thumbs:

I follow your logic Popeye, but I think you are oversimplifying Wilsons importance. Not purposefully, but you are falling in to a trap a lot of people do when talking about Wilson or other dual threats.

You are evaluatiing Wilson's importance to the team based purely on his passing prowess (like we all do for most QBs because that's all they have), and while it can be a pretty subjective thing to quantify, I'm of the opinion that Wilson is part of the reason that even average blocking affords us the luxury of being a massively run oriented offense by todays standards. He has such an effect that in a season where we were historically bad at running the ball traditionally, he WAS the run game, so much so that he set records for percentage of a teams offensive production (last year).

It's astonishing to me that after 7 years, he still gets evaluated as a traditional QB (especially when trying to push down his ability to play the position).

As much as I love Lynch, he goes from very good to League Beast as soon as he gets to play with Russ. Correlation or causation?

Wilson has barely run this year. Because every team we played always accounted for Wilson's legs. We just played a game against a team that saw Wilson's lack of ground yards and decided to eschew the help to clamp down on our passing game and inside runs.

Wilson averaged 9 yds a carry on 7 rushes for 60+ yds...and he played miserably (worst statistical performance of his career).

TLDR Wilsons value does not solely reside in passing (insert any stat here). He has a very positive affect on the run game as well. Meaning: HE HAS VALUE TO US ON EVERY PLAY. Begin debate about what that should cost now, I have no idea, but it's considerably more than his value based solely on pass attempts.

Signed, The other Sgt Largent

 

[olyfan63]

It wasn't a scary stupid play because Wilson slipped. It was a scary stupid play because if Eric Kendricks hadn't have slipped it would have been a pick six the other way.

So totally THIS. We were so lucky the Turf Monster got him. Not just George Fant. And the Turf Monster put Russell in that position with the slip, so it kinda evened out.

 

[toffee]

EPA had a hard time estimating Teslas' gas mileage, because Teslas' powerplant being so different from traditional internal combustion engines. Russell Wilson is the Tesla in the sea of traditional pocket QBs, his contribution cannot be measured or even understood by established metrics.

 

[olyfan63]

...<snip>
As far as $ goes for a QB, look at the coin that pretty boy is getting in Santa Clara. He has done nothing in this league.
Shoot, neither has Cousins. Stats are cute and all, but where are the playoff wins, or big wins in prime time?

I seem to recall the Redskins coming to the Clink and beating the Hawks on a late TD pass by Cousins, in a game where the 'Skins were totally banged up and had no business even being in the game.

So that's "1" for Cousins. He's had others, just not so much for the Vikings this year.

And, don't forget Cousins' Hail Mary for Michigan State to beat Russell Wilson's Wisconsin team.
The clip below also shows us a good view of a young Russell Wilson reacting to the loss.
Not that I'm a big Kirk Cousins fan, but I do think he has those QB intangibles (as does RW) and the Vikes signing him could turn out well next couple years. Lots of football still to be played.
[youtube]QAkLf6gtueo[/youtube]

 

[Scorpion05]

^Cousins had Blair Walsh and Cabevell to thank for that game.

Really, the idea of Cousins being even remotely in the same category is hilarious. Put Russ on the Vikings and they’d currently be the class of that division

 

[OrangeGravy]

A QB that is efficient, protects the ball well, can hit the difficult throws and plays his best in the 4th quarter is valuable to any team in this league at the highest of pay levels.

Volume stat QB's are valuable to fantasy league owners.

This ^^^^ right here is the crux of the problem with who gets put in the "good" or "elite" QB class by typical fans', media , etc...People love volume stat QBs and it's all because of fantasy football. The problem is fantasy football doesn't care who WINS THE GAMES. Volume QBs have lots of 3TD/2INT games with 300+ and they also rack up lots of Losses. Most volume QBs don't win in the playoffs, if they even get there. Most of the really good QBs like Brady for example aren't volume QBs. They have years where they have to be due to personnel issues and no running game, but those years usually come with struggles in the win department because of it. They rack up tons of stats, but the bottom line suffers. When they have their best years from an efficiency standpoint it usually comes during a year when they have a strong running game and really good balance on offense requiring less pass attempts per game.

Look at Brees. His highest attempts per game years come during the years where that team is horribly deficient in some way and they end up 7-9, no playoffs. Now they have a running game and Brees doesn't have to carry the load and what do you know, his efficiency numbers are threw the roof and they're racking up wins. Fantasy football has completely warped peoples' mind when evaluating players in general, but QBs the most.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

So I think its valid to say that his situation is unique.

Thanks, man. My only point is it's a unique situation. I think what might be happening is (1) that nobody wants to hear that from me, and (2) tempers about Wilson are hot because people have been debating how good he is (he's obviously really good) and my dumb thought experiment is getting confused for an argument about him not being good or valuable something. :2thumbs:

To say that Ryan, Rivers or Roethlessberger is worth more to their passing teams than they are to a run team like the Titans is false. You create the scheme AROUND your QB. Those teams pass because they have a hard time running, and the Titans run because Mariota can't carry an offense................and low and behold those QB's best years are when their offenses are balanced and running the ball well. Just like us.

I hear what you're saying, but the implication of what you're saying is that the Seahawks run more than any team in the NFL by an insanely wide margin because Russell Wilson can't carry an offense.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying having a good to great run game makes any QB better.

You're the one trying to parse out "throwing offenses" and "running offenses" and substantiating a value that puts on a QB's worth.......and I'm telling you it's all intertwined together, and therefore isn't a good bench mark for deciding said QB's worth.

- efficiency
- clutch
- consistency
- leadership
- community
- work ethic

Russell checks ALL the boxes, therefore I don't care if he has half the throws, half the yards............because all I care about is wins. Russell's a winner, end of discussion until we have another winner to take his place.

 

[Scorpion05]

I think some of what Popeye is saying here is valid, lets not get so caught up in taking everything personally against Russ.

The truth is, he probably IS worth that much money to us because of his unique skill set/our unique run first style, but on the open market, in today's NFL, I'm not sure other teams would look to Russ as the guy they want running a wide open, throw it 40 times a game type of guy. He is in a perfect niche right now where he can accentuate the skills that he does have.

So I think its valid to say that his situation is unique. Russ IS valuable. Russ WILL get paid. Hes just valuable in a different sort of way that doesnt necessarily fit the prototype of the NFL sling it around QB. That's not where he excels.

And that's ok. We don't need him to.

And with respect the idea that people are taking it personally or being sensitive when it comes to Russ needs to stop

If people do sound emotional, it’s because there’s this absurd criticism that Russ can’t be a 40 throw a game guy when...those same people are basing it on his time with no O-line or running game. And yet, he succeeded while being our leading rusher. He succeeds even with injuries around him. Like I’ve argued before, among a certain group of people I have never seen someone accomplish SO MUCH and get so little credit

There are very few young QBs in history who came in and performed the way Russ did his first few years. And in recent years, the idea that he can’t run a pass first offense when he reads defenses, and makes accurate throws sounds ridiculous

The people claiming Russ can’t be a pass first QB sound a lot more stubborn than the people defending Russ

 

[Mad Dog]

I think you give Russ a good pass blocking OL, a creative passing OC and one really good big receiver and he can easily be a 40 pass/game player. But that's not Pete Ball and never will be.

Pete would much rather have 30 rushes and 25 passes and no turnovers. I'm sure he feels that balance, clock control and ball control are the key characteristics of an offense. I can't blame him since it seems to be a winning formula for him.

May not meet with some fans view of what football should be about but I'm totally on board with Pete Ball. If I wanted to see Reid Ball I'd have stuck with watching the CFL.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Well, he had a bad game, it happens. I just find it amusing how many people want to point to one bad game, which they WON and they ignore the fact that he has been on point for weeks.

 

[Ambrose83]

...<snip>
As far as $ goes for a QB, look at the coin that pretty boy is getting in Santa Clara. He has done nothing in this league.
Shoot, neither has Cousins. Stats are cute and all, but where are the playoff wins, or big wins in prime time?

I seem to recall the Redskins coming to the Clink and beating the Hawks on a late TD pass by Cousins, in a game where the 'Skins were totally banged up and had no business even being in the game.

So that's "1" for Cousins. He's had others, just not so much for the Vikings this year.

And, don't forget Cousins' Hail Mary for Michigan State to beat Russell Wilson's Wisconsin team.
The clip below also shows us a good view of a young Russell Wilson reacting to the loss.
Not that I'm a big Kirk Cousins fan, but I do think he has those QB intangibles (as does RW) and the Vikes signing him could turn out well next couple years. Lots of football still to be played.
[youtube]QAkLf6gtueo[/youtube]

Lmao.. Dude you are on something if you think cousins is in the same universe as Russ on anything related to football .... The numbers don't lie.... He good like a lawn chair in big games... Russ does not.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Cousins isn't even in the same league as Russ. And that's not just the homer coming out, it's just reality.
Take a look at his playoff record, his record vs. winning teams, his prime time record and his road record.
It's putrid, and that's putting it mildly.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Just adding the Brady pick to lose today and as I'm typing this, Goff just had a play similar to Russell's last week where he fell and got up and tried to throw it away only to end up in a near pick 6 that turned into a TD to go down 17. So we now have a couple more QBs to add to the non elite list.

 

[northseahawk]

Well, he had a bad game, it happens. I just find it amusing how many people want to point to one bad game, which they WON and they ignore the fact that he has been on point for weeks.

Statistically, he is doing well. Like today's game, the stats were good/great, but he could not see open players even if the game was slow-motioned for him.

From an unbiased eye, he has not won us any game this year. He is managing the game well. On the other hand, he has lost two games personally with his timely pick-6s and if it weren't for the running game, his atrocious play in a few games would have been losses as well.

This team will not get anywhere with this 150 yard games, missing open throws, and not seeing open receivers. He makes every defense look like the great defenses of all time.

This guy should be throwing 300 yards earsly because our run game is attracting 8 men in the box all day and he does have the excuse of not getting time anymore!

 

[davidonmi]

Well, he had a bad game, it happens. I just find it amusing how many people want to point to one bad game, which they WON and they ignore the fact that he has been on point for weeks.

Statistically, he is doing well. Like today's game, the stats were good/great, but he could not see open players even if the game was slow-motioned for him.

From an unbiased eye, he has not won us any game this year. He is managing the game well. On the other hand, he has lost two games personally with his timely pick-6s and if it weren't for the running game, his atrocious play in a few games would have been losses as well.

This team will not get anywhere with this 150 yard games, missing open throws, and not seeing open receivers. He makes every defense look like the great defenses of all time.

This guy should be throwing 300 yards earsly because our run game is attracting 8 men in the box all day and he does have the excuse of not getting time anymore!

Yep. he's supposed to be throwing 300 yards "easily" when given 25-30 attempts per game. 10 ypa. Look around the NFL today. You'll be stunned to find out that 95% of quarterbacks don't play this perfect brand of football that Russ is expected to match every week.

 

[peppersjap]

My thing is that if it is not on Wilson then the organization needs to find him some receivers. Doug Baldwin is great and Lockett is having a very good year but where the hell is Jaron Brown and David Moore started out well but he has been almost non existent lately? I also thought Vannett started the year strong but he has disappeared and we hardly ever see anything from Dickson. I would also love to see Stringfellow brought up to replace Malik Turner who is zero help outside of special teams and he even killed us in that area today with an idiotic penalty.