Watching Brees last night....................

[Hawkpower]

This forum is almost unbearable to read. Everyone is so critical of RW. Newsflash fans, the Oline is hot garbage. Yes there may be a few plays where he could have hung in the pocket and delivered a pass, but when the pocket is collapsing 75% of the time, there is a good chance you are going to bail early the other 25% of the times.

Its how he handles himself in the pocket that's the problem.

Its also the fact that nearly every o-line in the league would collapse if they had to block as our oline has to block.

Throw the dang ball.

 

[mrt144]

There is no way any defensive player should be running free towards our qb unless they have us outmanned, and those times create the mis matches needed in the passing game.

Sometimes chances need to be taken and this staff needs to come up with some NEW plays incorporating a moving pocket because they are incapable of holding a conventional pocket.

I think Russell should treat every pass play like he is in the two minute offense and when he hits his drop he should throw the ball immediately. How is it that he only does that in the last two minutes of each half? It is a beautiful thing to see, but we rarely get to see it.

You're not going to like this answer:

Maybe because he's doing what he's told to do in those situations.

Says who?

Have we had a coach come out and say: Russ looks like garbage at times because thats what we want?

Specific to the pace of the game and 3 step drop and throws, yes, I am saying the team changes how they play dependent on the situation and that's a top down decision.

It's not like RW looks at the clock and says "Man, it's not even 2 minutes yet, I'm going to take a 5 step drop, make 3 reads and miss the open guy" just as much as it isn't DB and PC saying "RW, go out there and make hot garbage proud on this one".

Rideaducati is asking RW to replicate 2 minute drive pace and play calling at all times during the game as if RW is the driving force of those. He's not.

 

[drdiags]

Brees got replaced in SD because of his shoulder injury, full stop.

Right, so the speculation before he got hurt in the last game was without merit? Or the drafting of Rivers halfway through his time in San Diego was just in case. You are speculating just as I am. Neither of us can say for sure how things end in San Diego if he didn't get smashed on the goal line in that game.

 

[mrt144]

Brees got replaced in SD because of his shoulder injury, full stop.

Right, so the speculation before he got hurt in the last game was without merit? Or the drafting of Rivers halfway through his time in San Diego was just in case. You are speculating just as I am. Neither of us can say for sure how things end in San Diego if he didn't get smashed on the goal line in that game.

Rivers was waiting to take the reigns but the injury simply made it easier. I think SD was very confused about what to do and the injury made the decision so easy. The franchise tag application was a way to just kick the can one more season because they weren't willing to give up something with obvious value. But you're right, Rivers was going to take over at some point although I'd love to see the alternate universe where Brees stays in SD.

 

[Hawkpower]

Sometimes chances need to be taken and this staff needs to come up with some NEW plays incorporating a moving pocket because they are incapable of holding a conventional pocket.[/quote]

I think Russell should treat every pass play like he is in the two minute offense and when he hits his drop he should throw the ball immediately. How is it that he only does that in the last two minutes of each half? It is a beautiful thing to see, but we rarely get to see it.[/quote]

You're not going to like this answer:

Maybe because he's doing what he's told to do in those situations.[/quote]


Says who?

Have we had a coach come out and say: Russ looks like garbage at times because thats what we want?[/quote]

Specific to the pace of the game and 3 step drop and throws, yes, I am saying the team changes how they play dependent on the situation and that's a top down decision.

It's not like RW looks at the clock and says "Man, it's not even 2 minutes yet, I'm going to take a 5 step drop, make 3 reads and miss the open guy" just as much as it isn't DB and PC saying "RW, go out there and make hot garbage proud on this one".

Rideaducati is asking RW to replicate 2 minute drive pace and play calling at all times during the game as if RW is the driving force of those. He's not.[/quote]





That makes sense, I was reading it wrong.

I had mistakenly believed the poster was again referring to this mystery "PC demands that RW play conservative" theory that has become popular to throw out, I just hadn't actually heard Pete ever say it since like 2012.

 

[Crizilla]

Was a stark contrast to what we've seen out of Russell this year.

I love Russell, and I don't think he's playing terrible this year. But the combo of him getting paid and us not seeing a noticeable progression in his rise to one of the top QB's in the league is disappointing thus far this season.

I know Brees is THE QB Russell models his game after, but last night Brees was confident and didn't hesitate to throw balls into double coverage and tight spaces................and doing it with less talent around him, and a worse defense.

My question is, will Russell get to this point in his career? Or is he going to stay this conservative somewhat tentative QB afraid to make the big mistake. IMO if he's ever going to get into that "Elite" top 2-3 in the league discussion, we're going to have to see a lot more of what we saw Brees do last night.

i hate to say it but i dont think he will ever get to brees' level. I just can't see Wilson ever throwing out of the pocket like brees'. My mind just can't picture it.

 

[idahohawk]

I wish I could put my finger on what the cause is of this stark contrast.

I still think the OL is the reason for all this inconsistency and failure of the Hawks.

I still hate Bevell's play calls, but don't blame him for every loss. I think the LOB and the D have let us down in XLIX and this season, but all of that stems from the pathetic OL play, IMO.

Inability to run when needed. (Rams game, Bengals game)

Utter lack of ability to get a few first downs to give the Defense a break. (this is huge)

Piss poor pass blocking (that is putting it politely) never allowing Russ to make critical throws and progressions.


Our OL sucks. If it doesn't get fixed, by a miracle, 9-7 is the ceiling for this team.


It would be so much easier to take, coming off 2X Owls. But... nevermind.


Go Hawks

Was a stark contrast to what we've seen out of Russell this year.

I love Russell, and I don't think he's playing terrible this year. But the combo of him getting paid and us not seeing a noticeable progression in his rise to one of the top QB's in the league is disappointing thus far this season.

I know Brees is THE QB Russell models his game after, but last night Brees was confident and didn't hesitate to throw balls into double coverage and tight spaces................and doing it with less talent around him, and a worse defense.

My question is, will Russell get to this point in his career? Or is he going to stay this conservative somewhat tentative QB afraid to make the big mistake. IMO if he's ever going to get into that "Elite" top 2-3 in the league discussion, we're going to have to see a lot more of what we saw Brees do last night.

 

[jammerhawk]

I look at it this way...

How many years has Brees been in this league? How many years has Wilson been in this league? To me it's apples to oranges. While Russell has broken records since he's been in the league, and while we all know the special player he is, I am not expecting Wilson to look - in year 4 - like an All Pro QB does in his 15th season even with the above mentioned lesser talent around him.

Wilson's natural instincts and ability has been somewhat tempered in this system due in part to how much Pete ingrains in him the absolute necessity to not turn the ball over at any cost. This carries over into his tendency to not force balls in tight windows, even when said window has a 6'7" All Pro Tight End behind it. He's at times perplexingly tentative where I would think he wouldn't otherwise be.

Add to the mix an OL that is learning on the job (Wilson's been sacked 22 times, the most in the NFL so far this season) and I can see why he's not lighting up the stat line.

I am more concerned with the coaches not giving him full reign to act instinctively then I am anything else. It has a trickle down effect which I truly believe has been the primary cause of him not taking that next step that we know he has in him.

Todd long time since we've spoke, but this post is right on.

Your last paragraph resonates, it was the reasonfor my "is it on Russell" post after the Lions game b/c it klooked as if RW was constrained in his passing game. Wilson had a great game that game, even though the team let him down but it loooked as if the team was holding him back, and with that he missed a few key passes that he'd normally hit.

 

[Reaneypark]

We miss Unger a damn site better than they miss Graham. And, yeah, Brees looked solid.

 

[jammerhawk]

Meh, with Graham No would have ripped up Atl.

 

[Hawkpower]

We miss Unger a damn site better than they miss Graham. And, yeah, Brees looked solid.

Unger has not looked at all in the 3 games I have watched. He was getting beat like a drum at times last night.

 

[rideaducati]

Specific to the pace of the game and 3 step drop and throws, yes, I am saying the team changes how they play dependent on the situation and that's a top down decision.

It's not like RW looks at the clock and says "Man, it's not even 2 minutes yet, I'm going to take a 5 step drop, make 3 reads and miss the open guy" just as much as it isn't DB and PC saying "RW, go out there and make hot garbage proud on this one".

Rideaducati is asking RW to replicate 2 minute drive pace and play calling at all times during the game as if RW is the driving force of those. He's not.

I am doing no such thing. I wasn't speaking to the pace of the game or suggesting that Russell call the plays. Three step, five step, seven step drops, it doesn't matter. In crunch time Russell hits his back step and releases the ball no matter how many steps in the drop. I'm not suggesting that Russell go to no huddle throughout the entire game. I want Russell to get rid of the ball when he is supposed to and quit looking for "something better". We've seen him do it and it's beautiful. Let us see it consistently. With the state of the offensive line, there isn't going to be time to find "something better" and Russell needs to take what is available as quickly as he can. A better way to say this would be that Russell needs to get rid of the ball in under two seconds like the elite guys with bad offensive lines do.

I know the kid can do it and that is why it is so frustrating to watch him dance around unnecessarily and take hits while his receivers are open...except for Kearse.

 

[rideaducati]

We miss Unger a damn site better than they miss Graham. And, yeah, Brees looked solid.

"We" does not include me. A top three player at any position is a better option than a center that can't stay healthy.

With Bevell, we shouldn't expect instant gratification when new players are brought in anymore. The other offensive players had to work their way into the lineup and they get upset when new guys are brought in and given more chances than they get (see Percy Harvin). Bevell will work Jimmy into the offense, but I think he learned from the Percy debacle how NOT to do it.

 

[Largent80]

The coaching staff has had well over 4 months to evaluate the players on the 0-line. These are the guys they chose to "form a pocket". Practically every snap, and regardless of how many a step drop RW has, by the time he plants his foot to stop dropping back, someone is there with a full head of steam.

Pretty easy to see why he feels the need to bail. There rarely IS a pocket, and why would you want a pocket when you have a QB that excels making plays on the run. THAT is how RW should be used.

 

[SeahawksBMX]

The experience isnt really a factor if you consider how good Brees was in his 3rd and 4th year.He is one of the best in his time.
I doubt Russel will ever become the type of QB Brees is.The guy is fearless. Whether he has thrown 4 interceptions or 1,he has that shooter mentality and confidence he can make the next play...

It appears that you may be having short-term memory issues. You a pothead, Focker?

"Wilson drove the Seahawks 87 yards in six plays, the final 70 coming on consecutive deep throws. The first pass, down the near sideline, landed in Doug Baldwin’s arms. The second, deep down the middle, after an audible at the line of scrimmage, found Kearse, who had been the intended receiver on two of Wilson’s first-half interceptions."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/sp ... erer=&_r=0

After throwing 4 picks that day, 2 of which resulted from deflections on PERFECT throws to Kearse, with a shooter's mentality, Wilson fearlessly audibled to what became the game-winning deep ball to none other than Kearse, an ultimate display of confidence in both himself and his butterfingered receiver. An ultimate display of (necessary) short-term memory loss.

You a pothead, Wilson?

 

[Hawkpower]

The experience isnt really a factor if you consider how good Brees was in his 3rd and 4th year.He is one of the best in his time.
I doubt Russel will ever become the type of QB Brees is.The guy is fearless. Whether he has thrown 4 interceptions or 1,he has that shooter mentality and confidence he can make the next play...

It appears that you may be having short-term memory issues. You a pothead, Focker?

"Wilson drove the Seahawks 87 yards in six plays, the final 70 coming on consecutive deep throws. The first pass, down the near sideline, landed in Doug Baldwin’s arms. The second, deep down the middle, after an audible at the line of scrimmage, found Kearse, who had been the intended receiver on two of Wilson’s first-half interceptions."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/sp ... erer=&_r=0

After throwing 4 picks that day, 2 of which resulted from deflections on PERFECT throws to Kearse, with a shooter's mentality, Wilson fearlessly audibled to what became the game-winning deep ball to none other than Kearse, an ultimate display of confidence in both himself and his butterfingered receiver. An ultimate display of (necessary) short-term memory loss.

You a pothead, Wilson?

So a random example of a clutch throw negates the weekly evidence showing a constant refusal to throw the ball on time and into tight coverage?

Heck not even tight coverage. We have evidence this week of his refusal throw the ball to 3 wide open receivers, instead choosing to run around randomly and huck it weakly down the field for a game clinching incompletion.

 

[RiverDog]

Was a stark contrast to what we've seen out of Russell this year.

I love Russell, and I don't think he's playing terrible this year. But the combo of him getting paid and us not seeing a noticeable progression in his rise to one of the top QB's in the league is disappointing thus far this season.

I know Brees is THE QB Russell models his game after, but last night Brees was confident and didn't hesitate to throw balls into double coverage and tight spaces................and doing it with less talent around him, and a worse defense.

My question is, will Russell get to this point in his career? Or is he going to stay this conservative somewhat tentative QB afraid to make the big mistake. IMO if he's ever going to get into that "Elite" top 2-3 in the league discussion, we're going to have to see a lot more of what we saw Brees do last night.

I agree with Sarge. I love Russell to death and still think he's the best quarterback in the league for our team, but he's not progressing like he should, and yes, Brees is the gold standard that Russell should be taking notes from. He's a lot like Russell in that he's a shorter than average quarterback and knows how to minimize his deficiencies and how to manage the pocket.

One thing that Russell hasn't done yet is to learn how to take advantage of a receiver like Jimmy Graham that has a distinct height advantage over every single DB in the league. Russell throws to him like he's Jermaine Kearse or Doug Baldwin, ie trying to drop passes over his shoulder. He needs to put more air underneath his throws when he's throwing to a big, basketball-like receiver, to the point where the only player that has a chance to even touch it is Graham, and force him to go up and get it. The interception in the red zone last week is a prime example.

 

[SeahawksBMX]

The experience isnt really a factor if you consider how good Brees was in his 3rd and 4th year.He is one of the best in his time.
I doubt Russel will ever become the type of QB Brees is.The guy is fearless. Whether he has thrown 4 interceptions or 1,he has that shooter mentality and confidence he can make the next play...

It appears that you may be having short-term memory issues. You a pothead, Focker?

"Wilson drove the Seahawks 87 yards in six plays, the final 70 coming on consecutive deep throws. The first pass, down the near sideline, landed in Doug Baldwin’s arms. The second, deep down the middle, after an audible at the line of scrimmage, found Kearse, who had been the intended receiver on two of Wilson’s first-half interceptions."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/sp ... erer=&_r=0

After throwing 4 picks that day, 2 of which resulted from deflections on PERFECT throws to Kearse, with a shooter's mentality, Wilson fearlessly audibled to what became the game-winning deep ball to none other than Kearse, an ultimate display of confidence in both himself and his butterfingered receiver. An ultimate display of (necessary) short-term memory loss.

You a pothead, Wilson?

So a random example of a clutch throw negates the weekly evidence showing a constant refusal to throw the ball on time and into tight coverage?

Heck not even tight coverage. We have evidence this week of his refusal throw the ball to 3 wide open receivers, instead choosing to run around randomly and huck it weakly down the field for a game clinching incompletion.

I recognize RW's struggles this year as much as everyone, but I could offer up plenty of other clutch throws over the past few years (the 4th & 7 TD to Kearse in the 2014 NFCC, the bomb to Rice near the end of the 2012 game vs. the Pats, the game winner to Tate in 2012 vs. the Packers (LMAO)...).
It is a problem that Russell isn't pulling the trigger on throws that appear to be there. I'm hoping that as the inexperienced OL gets more games under their belt, everything else will fall into place. Maybe RW has regressed due to weight gain, his celebrity relationship, being shell-shocked from too many hits, or any combination of those.

Maybe it's the play calling. I don't want to get into that too much since it's in every other thread here, but it does seem that while the current system has worked well up until this year, the San Diego blueprint for defending the read option is now being successfully utilized by more teams and it is critical for this offense to evolve. Other than the OL, I see a collection of very good to very great players making up this offense and I have a hard time accepting that an offensive genius couldn't make these guys a juggernaut.

The "3 wide open receivers" comment isn't referring to the misleading gif in this thread is it? IIRC (not going to exit my reply to go back & look at it), I think one of those was paused after the pass was thrown and the defender(s) had released to run downfield. Crossing pattern (Baldwin?) was definitely there for the taking. Coverage elsewhere seemed pretty tight.

In summary, #firebevell

 

[SeahawksBMX]

Forgot to add a height & Graham comment in my post above, but RD covered those perfectly.

 

[Hawkpower]

The experience isnt really a factor if you consider how good Brees was in his 3rd and 4th year.He is one of the best in his time.
I doubt Russel will ever become the type of QB Brees is.The guy is fearless. Whether he has thrown 4 interceptions or 1,he has that shooter mentality and confidence he can make the next play...

It appears that you may be having short-term memory issues. You a pothead, Focker?

"Wilson drove the Seahawks 87 yards in six plays, the final 70 coming on consecutive deep throws. The first pass, down the near sideline, landed in Doug Baldwin’s arms. The second, deep down the middle, after an audible at the line of scrimmage, found Kearse, who had been the intended receiver on two of Wilson’s first-half interceptions."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/sp ... erer=&_r=0

After throwing 4 picks that day, 2 of which resulted from deflections on PERFECT throws to Kearse, with a shooter's mentality, Wilson fearlessly audibled to what became the game-winning deep ball to none other than Kearse, an ultimate display of confidence in both himself and his butterfingered receiver. An ultimate display of (necessary) short-term memory loss.

You a pothead, Wilson?

So a random example of a clutch throw negates the weekly evidence showing a constant refusal to throw the ball on time and into tight coverage?

Heck not even tight coverage. We have evidence this week of his refusal throw the ball to 3 wide open receivers, instead choosing to run around randomly and huck it weakly down the field for a game clinching incompletion.

I recognize RW's struggles this year as much as everyone, but I could offer up plenty of other clutch throws over the past few years (the 4th & 7 TD to Kearse in the 2014 NFCC, the bomb to Rice near the end of the 2012 game vs. the Pats, the game winner to Tate in 2012 vs. the Packers (LMAO)...).
It is a problem that Russell isn't pulling the trigger on throws that appear to be there. I'm hoping that as the inexperienced OL gets more games under their belt, everything else will fall into place. Maybe RW has regressed due to weight gain, his celebrity relationship, being shell-shocked from too many hits, or any combination of those.

Maybe it's the play calling. I don't want to get into that too much since it's in every other thread here, but it does seem that while the current system has worked well up until this year, the San Diego blueprint for defending the read option is now being successfully utilized by more teams and it is critical for this offense to evolve. Other than the OL, I see a collection of very good to very great players making up this offense and I have a hard time accepting that an offensive genius couldn't make these guys a juggernaut.

The "3 wide open receivers" comment isn't referring to the misleading gif in this thread is it? IIRC (not going to exit my reply to go back & look at it), I think one of those was paused after the pass was thrown and the defender(s) had released to run downfield. Crossing pattern (Baldwin?) was definitely there for the taking. Coverage elsewhere seemed pretty tight.

In summary, #firebevell

Fair points, but the GIFS of RW missing wide open receivers while he flails around in the backfield for no reason are not limited to just the OT example from last Sunday. There are examples posted here in .NET nearly every week.

Its a problem.