Top Guard or mid-level WR/OT in first round?

[jhern87]

I couldn't agree more on the importance of the O-line. Unfortunately I'm not as sold on our ability to pick the right ones (Carpenter wasn't a good pick in round 1). I do like Yankey from Stanford though! He's big and very athletic for how big he is. I would be ecstatic if we ended up with him on draft day.

Was there a particular OL prospect in 2011 that you think we should have taken? Honestly, at any position was there a guy you'd have taken between #25 and 35 overall? Outside of Wilkerson who wasn't a fit for a team already with Red Bryant on it -- I'm not seeing any talent between Carpenter and the next 10 draft picks.

I think it's been well established that Seattle had to take OL in 2011. We weren't in a position to not take them. We didn't even have a starting 5 on the roster. And we weren't exactly flush with cap space then either.

Otherwise, I'd say our ability to pick the right OL talent has been superb. Okung/Williams was a no brainer at 6. Sweezy in the 7th. Giacomini off a practice squad. McQuistan a waiver wire pick up. Bowie a 7th round pick. Bailey a UDFA.

Other than Fat Rabbit (PS) and the since retired Moffitt -- every guy we've ever drafted is still on an active NFL roster as far as I know.

I've been eyeing Bitonio since the senior bowl before the combine and his performance there really sealed/confirmed more than I necessarily saw on tape. In terms of athletic testing, which Seattle covets, his scores are up there with top 10 overall guys going back half a decade. It doesn't mean he's as good as they are but the raw materials are certainly all there. He was a mid to late second round grade OL talent before the combine so it's not as if he's pulling a Dontari Poe.

It's certainly an interesting draft class. But overall I expect Bitonio's relative scores to be very much off the charts compared to prospects at other positions that are expected to be available at 32.

I don't thinking reaching for a guy is ever the answer. If you're going to stay put then take the BPA but if they "had to take an OL" (as you claim) then trade down. Even Carpenter's own coach was surprised he went that early and he hasn't played to the level of a first round pick; so his confusion was obviously warranted.

Joel Bitonio would be a great pick imo. Big strong and looks physically capable of playing immediately.

 

[hawknation2014]

Bitonio is definitely a guard. He's big and physical, but I don't know if he would play ahead of Sweezy, Bailey, or Carpenter. I thought taking Carpenter at 25 was too high. 32 is probably too high for Bitonio. It would be great if he fell to 64, but if not, there should be some other good offensive linemen available.

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[theENGLISHseahawk]

hawknation2014 -- tell me what you see in that tape that leads you to those conclusions.

 

[hawknation2014]

hawknation2014 -- tell me what you see in that tape that leads you to those conclusions.

Why do I see Bitinio as exclusively a guard?

It starts with his measurables. He is only 6'4, and he has arms under 34''. To play OT, you need length to contain the outside rusher. His footwork is not quick enough to make up for his lack of length. Also, his punch in pass protection lacks any pop. This is evidenced by his 22 bench press reps at the combine with short arms. He is not a very muscular guy. Everything about him looks like a guard or center.

But he is a good athlete who plays with some nastiness. He would make a good guard. But his lack of experience with interior zone blocking would likely keep him behind Sweezy, Bailey, and Carpenter as a rookie. After that, he could replace Carpenter, but I don't know if he would beat out Bailey/Sweezy. He could be a long-term replacement for Sweezy in his third year.

I don't believe in taking most guard prospects in the First Round. If he's available at 64, then maybe they take him to add some competition at left guard and provide a long-term replacement for Sweezy, who will not be a FA until 2016. I think the more immediate need is depth at OT.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

It starts with his measurables. He is only 6'4, and he has arms under 34''. To play OT, you need length to contain the outside rusher. His footwork is not quick enough to make up for his lack of length. Also, his punch in pass protection lacks any pop. This is evidenced by his 22 bench press reps at the combine with short arms. He is not a very muscular guy. Everything about him looks like a guard or center.

Joel Bitonio's arm length -- 33 7/8 inches
Taylor Lewan's arm length -- 33 7/8 inches
Jake Matthews arm length -- 33 3/8 inches

Bitonio bench reps -- 22
Lewan bench reps -- 29
Matthews bench reps -- 24

Footwork not quick enough? Bitonio had the third best three cone among offensive lineman at the combine and the third best short shuttle.

If Bitonio's measurables are not good enough to play tackle, then the same goes for Lewan and Matthews.

his lack of experience with interior zone blocking would likely keep him behind Sweezy, Bailey, and Carpenter as a rookie

And yet it didn't stop them starting a rookie Sweezy, a converted defensive lineman who'd never played the OL before, over John Moffitt at various times in 2012.

He could be a long-term replacement for Sweezy in his third year.

I don't believe they're looking for a long term replacement for Sweezy.

 

[hawknation2014]

Joel Bitonio's arm length -- 33 7/8 inches
Taylor Lewan's arm length -- 33 7/8 inches
Jake Matthews arm length -- 33 3/8 inches
Bitonio bench reps -- 22
Lewan bench reps -- 29
Matthews bench reps -- 24

Footwork not quick enough? Bitonio had the third best three cone among offensive lineman at the combine and the third best short shuttle.

If Bitonio's measurables are not good enough to play tackle, then the same goes for Lewan and Matthews.

He's a stocky, 6'4 supposed OT. Mathews is 6'5. Lewan is 6'7. Matthews and Lewan's arm lengths are less than ideal (which is why Greg Robinson is the protype), but that extra length gives them recovery time to keep up with the outside rusher.

Bitonio's on-field foot speed while pass blocking is much less impressive than his 3-cone or 40 could indicate. He has a slow kick slide and struggles with his punch. But he would probably make a solid pulling guard and mauling interior blocker.

There is no way he is going in the First Round, and I think it's unlikely he plays OT in the NFL. Guard will be his ideal position.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

Sorry, but nothing you've said in these posts justifies the assurity with which you're discussing Bitonio's stock.

The point about the 'extra length' of Matthews and Lewan just doesn't make sense. You're just trying to cover your tracks after saying he has short arms, which he does not.

 

[Scottemojo]

Sorry, but nothing you've said in these posts justifies the assurity with which you're discussing Bitonio's stock.

The point about the 'extra length' of Matthews and Lewan just doesn't make sense. You're just trying to cover your tracks after saying he has short arms, which he does not.

I will add this: Bitonio measured a 83 plus wingspan at the Senior Bowl.
Matthews and Lewan both come in just under 80.

I don't think Bitonio is that fluid of an athlete, but I would like him at RT with the ability to move to guard if it doesn't pan out. As a LT, he would be hella better than McQ was, so Bitonio can be a swing player. Bitonio is a seek and destroy player, and to me looks uncomfortable when he gets on his heels. I get the idea watching him that his kick slide is choppy, with him leaning while doing it, and a really good power OLB or DT wouldn't have much trouble putting inside moves on him as he is right now. I also felt like Bitonio was a bit of a grabber and holder, and a scrambler like Wilson will expose those grabbers and holders to a ref.

I have no idea how much of that stuff can be coached out of a guy. Carpenter never learned to play on his heels. Breno got better.

 

[McGruff]

Bitonio would be a great 2nd round pick, and most pundits would still consider him a reach there. Not sure about the first though.

Other names to consider . . .

OG Ryan Groy, Wisconsin . . . excelled in the broadjump, 3-cone and short shuttle. He's a nimble, pull-type guard who excels at the second level.
OG John Uschel, Penn State . . . good strength and excellent agility and incredibly smart. He's another athletic, pull and trap blocker who its well in the ZBS.
OT Wesley Johnson, Vanderbuilt . . . Long and lean, needs more weight room development, but super-explosive and agile for a man his size. Plays with a maturity and love for the game.
OT Zach Martin, Notre Dame . . . would have to fall to us in the first round, lack ideal length and hand size, but excellent agility number and explosion.
OT Ja'Waun James, Tennessee . . . Massive frame with LOOOONG arms who surprised me with better than average numbers in the agility drills. He's a great pass protector, but struggles with run blocking. May not fit our scheme. Looks like a left tackle only.
OT Charles Leno Jr. Boise St. . . . doesn't have good strength, but excellent movement skills. Good length and can probably play four positions. Needs to workout with the weights to maximize potential.
OT Matt Patchan, Boston College . . . untapped potentially on a good, long frame. Excellent speed and vertical for a big man. Looks like a 6th lineman/blocking TE to me.

 

[Scottemojo]

Billy Turner, OT, NDSU. He won't make it to pick 64.

 

[McGruff]

Billy Turner, OT, NDSU. He won't make it to pick 64.

Turner was just on the outside of my list above. Not saying he will go later than those guys, because those guys are all over the value board, but on my Seahawks athletic profile board he a notch below them. But he's definitely in the discussion with great length and size, above average athletic ability across the board, but he's super raw . . . lack of coaching and competition weigh against him pretty heavily. But the skills are all there.

I could see coach Cable loving a guy like that.

 

[McGruff]

Turner is an excellent pass protector and quality drive blocker, but he gets a little lost pulling and at the second level. Doesn't seem to know who to hit. But he doesn't a great job picking up blitzers and puts people on their back and 5 yards downfield when drive blocking.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

I don't thinking reaching for a guy is ever the answer. If you're going to stay put then take the BPA but if they "had to take an OL" (as you claim) then trade down. Even Carpenter's own coach was surprised he went that early and he hasn't played to the level of a first round pick; so his confusion was obviously warranted.

Joel Bitonio would be a great pick imo. Big strong and looks physically capable of playing immediately.

You and I are in agreement. And if you will recall, Seattle tried desperately to trade down. But the trade options were not there. We couldn't make the same trade that NE did, because New Orleans knew we weren't taking Mark Ingram. They waited to move up later -- when the risk of a team taking him was more severe. In the end, we were left having to burn the pick.

Seattle tried to move out. But teams knew we were in a tough spot and weren't willing to give even near equal value. They had to make the best they could. The trade options were equally poor in round 2 when we did manage to find some value. But overall it was a trade where we gave more draft stock than we received. Although we made it work getting Sherman out of the deal.

Seattle didn't exactly race to the podium to take Carpenter. Although I do expect we wanted to trade down 10-15 spots and still take Carpenter. Ultimately, we didn't get a bust relative to the talent around him. So failing to trade down wasn't prohibitive. The quality in the draft just wasn't there. I won't concede he was a bust until someone can tell me who we should have taken instead. By BPA logic, what player fit what we needed that we didn't take? You and I agree on that principle -- but I just don't see who we should have taken. Otherwise, I'm inclined to accept that pick for what I think it was. An equally poor pick in a very bad draft class. But at least a poor pick relative to desperate need.

Where I take issue with the general 'worth a first round pick' argument, is in the fundamental acceptance that all first round picks are equal. I don't believe they are at all. Fans routinely overvalue late first round picks and even here -- we grade our first round successes and failures thusly. Picking in the top 15 is nowhere near the same as picking in the bottom 15. The bust potential over draft history shows that the likelihood of a first round bust rises exponentially as you get further toward the bottom half. Carpenter at 25 should be nowhere near the quality of Okung at #6. Yet the expectation seems to often be that because they were both first round picks, their expected career trajectories should be the same. They are not.

And to me, it applies very well to the argument for trading up for a player like Mike Evans. For me, that one first round pick in the top half of this round is worth far more value than 2 late first round picks. Even in a draft class with this kind of quality well into the third round. It's not that I generally support doing 2 for 1 first round deals. But occasionally the talent fit merits it. And I believe it does in the case of Evans -- particularly when we're already considering taking a lesser version of Evans with one of our existing picks.