Russ Scores More Than 13.

[TwistedHusky]

'Far from bad' is not exactly great, and if the guy that is 'far from bad' is sucking 30M from your available salary cap - then you need to figure out another approach. Because 'far from bad' won't be enough to cover up the holes losing 30M in spend creates.

However, before you focus on causes, you have to acknowledge that the results have been wanting.

Solving a problem only starts with acknowledging there is a problem. That rarely occurs if people are too busy spinning up excuses.

After that, is the problem Wilson? The gameplan? The surrounding pieces? (let's hope not because 30M less means you get less of these guys, not more)

So the first postulation that Wilson would have done better in the SB with this coach and this roster pretty much has to be unlikely to be true. We have several years of results and in all of them, decisions were made that led to some pretty mediocre production. In fact, our only time we seem to have prospered in the playoffs was when our lead horses were not the QB but the Defense and Run Game.

But we don't have those anymore. So can Wilson drive success here? It certainly looks like it but it would take a completely new approach. It does not feel reasonable to go entire games where Wilson passes for 30 yds at the half, then try to flip the switch in the playoffs and suddenly turn into a team with the primary weapon being a passing threat. Even if something like this works in the regular season, it does not in the playoffs against better teams - so why would you focus so much attention on an approach that cannot be applied successfully in the playoffs?

(In fact, this approach has a name. It is called MartyBall and literally is slang for failure in the playoffs)

Is the same old approach with Wilson and Carroll that failed for 4 years likely to work for the 5th? Doubtful. So why not explore other approaches?

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Except...he hasn't been. Which is what the stats show.

Hmm lets see for his career in the playoffs he has

62% complt, 21 tds only 11 ints, 8.3 ypa, 95 qb rating plus another 3 tds rushing and a 4.8 ypa in 13 games


Seems good to me but lets compare

63% completion, 73 tds, 34 ints 7.0 ypa, 90 Qb rating, and 6 tds rushing and 3.4 ypa. in 40 games


Hmm seems like Russell is right up there with......Brady

enough said thanks for playing

We're going back to career stats now? I thought this was about post-2014.

If it's post-2014, at least three of those stats take a notable dive.

Also, Brady has been a more consistent performer over his entire career. Wilson's been far more boom-or-bust by comparison. Speaking in terms of just QBR, he's got three games out of 13 that fall at or below the standard deviation for his performances. Brady has six out of 40.

Wilson is the greatest QB of Seahawks history and an elite quarterback. He's not a lights-out postseason performer without a complete team. Both can be true.

Lets say you are right and both can be true, please find me a QB in the playoffs that has been "lights out" in the playoffs that did not have a very good to a great team? Let me help you, you cant.

oh and for 2015-2018 his number per game are

238 yards per game, 64% complete, 1.8tds, 1 int, 95 Qb rating those far form bad numbers.

According to PFR it's 238 yards per game, 63%, 1.8, 1 int/game (to Brady's 0.7), and 91 QBR.

They're not horrible, but they're not Brady. That's where I was going, since that's where you went.

Also...just my advice, though I think I've given it before...quit being such a sarcastic little snot with every paragraph. You're acting oddly angry and defensive in your posts and it makes you unpleasant to debate.

 

[John63]

Hmm lets see for his career in the playoffs he has

62% complt, 21 tds only 11 ints, 8.3 ypa, 95 qb rating plus another 3 tds rushing and a 4.8 ypa in 13 games


Seems good to me but lets compare

63% completion, 73 tds, 34 ints 7.0 ypa, 90 Qb rating, and 6 tds rushing and 3.4 ypa. in 40 games


Hmm seems like Russell is right up there with......Brady

enough said thanks for playing

We're going back to career stats now? I thought this was about post-2014.

If it's post-2014, at least three of those stats take a notable dive.

Also, Brady has been a more consistent performer over his entire career. Wilson's been far more boom-or-bust by comparison. Speaking in terms of just QBR, he's got three games out of 13 that fall at or below the standard deviation for his performances. Brady has six out of 40.

Wilson is the greatest QB of Seahawks history and an elite quarterback. He's not a lights-out postseason performer without a complete team. Both can be true.

Lets say you are right and both can be true, please find me a QB in the playoffs that has been "lights out" in the playoffs that did not have a very good to a great team? Let me help you, you cant.

oh and for 2015-2018 his number per game are

238 yards per game, 64% complete, 1.8tds, 1 int, 95 Qb rating those far form bad numbers.

According to PFR it's 238 yards per game, 63%, 1.8, 1 int/game (to Brady's 0.7), and 91 QBR.

They're not horrible, but they're not Brady. That's where I was going, since that's where you went.

Also...just my advice, though I think I've given it before...quit being such a sarcastic little snot with every paragraph. You're acting oddly angry and defensive in your posts and it makes you unpleasant to debate.

The point of the debate is he has been bad in the playoff since 2015, which is what was said, clearly that is untrue. As to if he would have scored more than 13 I think so, but that is an opinion with no facts to support. However, it is a fact he has not been bad in the playoffs and in fact overall has been good since 2015 till now.

 

[Scorpion05]

"Nonsense" or "Hot take" would imply that it wasn't supported by actual statistics

The nonsense bit is you claiming that all objective commentary supports your opinion. You're welcome to hold your opinion but "all the objective experts agree with me" is kindergarten debate logic.

It's not simply biblical truth, it's basic fact you can rewatch for yourself on NFL Gamepass. Even Youtube might help

Simply telling people that information source X agrees with your position is neither interesting nor persuasive. Imagine you are introducing evidence for a case. What you believe the film shows with specifics can be constructive, but simply arguing that film exists and supports your position is a waste of everybody's time.

The nonsense bit in your rebuttal is that I never claimed that simple commentary supported my opinion. Anyone can have an opinion. The actual articles and commentary ADDRESSING ACTUAL FACTS about our playcalling sequencing, from Warren Sharp here:

h[tweet]ttps://twitter.com/sharpfootball/status/1081772753047511040[/tweet]

Or FiveThirtyEight here:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/yo ... y-screwed/


If you want more, I can provide more. So I'm going to ask you one more time. How is the data and arguments laid out here simply "Hot Takes" and what numbers, stats, and or film can you quote in comparison? An argument supported by evidence is NOT a hot take. Whether you like my post or not

 

[Scorpion05]

It's not simply biblical truth, it's basic fact you can rewatch for yourself on NFL Gamepass. Even Youtube might help

We did have success passing the ball. To deny that is stubbornness. At minimum, we failed even more running the ball.

If we passed too much and didn't run the ball enough despite averaging 5 yards per carry, I'm pretty sure you and others would say "We should have run the ball more." Russell has played with a poor O-line for over half of his career and led the league in tight window throws the entire season. He won 9 games in 2017 with one of the WORST running games in recent NFL history Claiming that somehow we wouldn't have had success passing because of the Dallas front seven is laughable when you take all 125 games he's played in his entire career into account. If Belicheck was Russell's coach, there's zero chance they don't adjust. The Patriots couldn't get anything working for 3 quarters but were constantly willing to try something new. Again, this is basic

See? you talk about one thing related to Wilson - and this isn't even about his performance - and you get all these completely irrelevant stats that are supposed to make a point but have nothing to do with anything. Unless they are about that particular game in those particular circumstances, then it's irrelevant.

Wilson played with a poor O-line for over half of his career and led the league in tight window throws the entire season but not with 2 injured guards against Dallas' front 7 playing like they were during the wild card game.

He won 9 games in 2017 with one of the worst running games in NFL history - but not with 2 injured guards against Dallas' front 7 playing like they were during the wild card game.

In all the other 125 games, he didn't have 2 injured guards against Dallas' front 7 playing like they were during the wild card game.

This also is basic.

In my opinion and assessment, we were most successful passing against trend, which means we had to have trend to go against. This meant having those running plays everyone likes to crap all over. Yes, football is a game about athleticism and great individual performances, but it's also about strategy, and when Dallas knew we'd be passing, Wilson was getting almost instant pressure. Pressing that would only have lead to mistakes, turnovers, and injury. In my opinion.

Your opinion may vary. Maybe the 125 games mean more than the one in your opinion. I was watching the one.

You're right. Wilson didn't play with two injured guards. He instead played with 2017 Germain Ifedi, who averaged a pressure in every game and allowed at least three in 10 games in 2017. Do you need me to quote past numbers too for say, Rees Odhiambo?

The point was, Russell has played in rougher circumstances, against tough defenses. We have a 125 game sample size of him performing under different conditions. If you only focused on the one game then you should never analyze a game, because the best predictor of future performance is past performance. The idea that a QB who played the entire 2016 season with a terrible knee injury and torn pectoral, the most hit QB for a stretch of 3-4 years under 3 seconds...playing against a team that was SELLING OUT AGAINST THE RUN couldn't give a spark to the offense is, well..basic

 

[Sports Hernia]

Russ scores more than 13 but this defense gives up at least 27.

 

[Scorpion05]

@John63 your points have some merit to it. Let's list all the notable QBs post 2014:

2015

Drew Brees - Missed Playoffs
Tom Brady - Played 2 games, Had 4 TDs, 2 Int
Aaron Rodgers - Played 2 games, Had 4 TDs, 1 Int
Russell Wilson - Played 2 games, Had 4 TDs, 2 int


So in 2015, 1 Elite QB missed the playoffs, the other 3 had virtually equivalent performances

Okay so let's move on to 2016. The year that Russell had a bad knee injury and a torn pectoral. So bad it was rumored he shouldn't even be playing. But don't count on some to even bother mentioning that. Holding Russell to a standard no other QB is held to is their specialty:


2016

Tom Brady - Played 3 games, 7 TDs, 3 Int
Aaron Rodgers - Played 3 games , 9 TDs, 2 Int (he was on fire this year)
Russell Wilson - Played 2 games, 4 TDs, 2 Int
Drew Brees - Missed Playoffs

So basically, we have one QB who performed excellent, 1 QB who performed okay, 1 QB who didn't make it, and 1 QB who performed "poorly." With one of those games being the 3rd coldest in NFL history

2017

Tom Brady - Played 3 games, 8 TDs, 0 Int. Excellent
Russell Wilson- Missed playoffs. Blamed by anti-Russ critics for missing the playoffs(Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees never miss the playoffs even when healthy)
Aaron Rodgers - Missed Playoffs, injury
Drew Brees - Played 2 games, 5 TDs, 3 Int

So in 2017, we have 2 Qbs here who missed the playoffs. One who performed okay, and one who performed excellent (Brady).


2018

Tom Brady - Played 3 games, 2 TDs, 3 Int
Russell Wilson - Played 1 game, 2 TD, 0 Int
Aaron Rodgers - Missed Playoffs
Drew Brees - Played 2 games, 4 TDs, 2 Int


So this year, we have a QB who made the Super Bowl with questionable performances. Russ, who was bounced out in the Wild Card round, Aaron Rodgers who was injured again, and Drew Brees who performed poorly in moments and gave a mostly average performance


So, in summary, out of the three top tier QBs not named Wilson (because you know, he's sucked since 2015 in the playoffs), only ONE of the Elite QBs made it to the playoffs all four years. Two of the others (Brees and Rodgers) missed the playoffs twice. Russell and Brady are the only QBs in this group to make the playoffs 3 out of the last four years. Since 2015 Russell has averaged 1.8 TDs a game, along with Tom Brady. Russ also averaged 13 less attempts than Brady, and up to 8 attempts less than the other aforementioned QBs.

So given the fact that Brady is the only consistent QB to appear in the playoffs, and given Brady's per game performance in comparison, what exactly are we arguing here? Instead of pretending as if the "Russ defenders" are just defending their Lord and Savior, how about asking yourselves some reflective questions. Such as "Wow, gee golly am I being unfair to Russ? Are my criticisms of Russ' supposed shortcomings that much unlike the other great QBs over the course of their career? Is it possible that I'm holding Russ to a double standard?"

The answer to all of those latter questions is likely, well, yes. No matter how irritated and annoyed some of you may be that people are challenging your biased perspectives. If you're going to criticize Russ, let's not exaggerate. If I felt Russ didn't meet the standard, I'd admit it. Let's have equivalent, fairly discussed comparisons. Thanks.

Side Note: Oh, and since 2012, when also including Andrew Luck and Ben Roethlisberger, Russell has the 2nd highest QB rating, the 2nd most TDs, and is tied for the 3rd most overall TDS per game with Drew Brees. But anyway, nitpick away

 

[MontanaHawk05]

We're going back to career stats now? I thought this was about post-2014.

If it's post-2014, at least three of those stats take a notable dive.

Also, Brady has been a more consistent performer over his entire career. Wilson's been far more boom-or-bust by comparison. Speaking in terms of just QBR, he's got three games out of 13 that fall at or below the standard deviation for his performances. Brady has six out of 40.

Wilson is the greatest QB of Seahawks history and an elite quarterback. He's not a lights-out postseason performer without a complete team. Both can be true.

Lets say you are right and both can be true, please find me a QB in the playoffs that has been "lights out" in the playoffs that did not have a very good to a great team? Let me help you, you cant.

oh and for 2015-2018 his number per game are

238 yards per game, 64% complete, 1.8tds, 1 int, 95 Qb rating those far form bad numbers.

According to PFR it's 238 yards per game, 63%, 1.8, 1 int/game (to Brady's 0.7), and 91 QBR.

They're not horrible, but they're not Brady. That's where I was going, since that's where you went.

Also...just my advice, though I think I've given it before...quit being such a sarcastic little snot with every paragraph. You're acting oddly angry and defensive in your posts and it makes you unpleasant to debate.

The point of the debate is he has been bad in the playoff since 2015, which is what was said, clearly that is untrue. As to if he would have scored more than 13 I think so, but that is an opinion with no facts to support. However, it is a fact he has not been bad in the playoffs and in fact overall has been good since 2015 till now.

So you're just repeating your previous post as if I never made one...

 

[John63]

@John63 your points have some merit to it. Let's list all the notable QBs post 2014:

2015

Drew Brees - Missed Playoffs
Tom Brady - Played 2 games, Had 4 TDs, 2 Int
Aaron Rodgers - Played 2 games, Had 4 TDs, 1 Int
Russell Wilson - Played 2 games, Had 4 TDs, 2 int


So in 2015, 1 Elite QB missed the playoffs, the other 3 had virtually equivalent performances

Okay so let's move on to 2016. The year that Russell had a bad knee injury and a torn pectoral. So bad it was rumored he shouldn't even be playing. But don't count on some to even bother mentioning that. Holding Russell to a standard no other QB is held to is their specialty:


2016

Tom Brady - Played 3 games, 7 TDs, 3 Int
Aaron Rodgers - Played 3 games , 9 TDs, 2 Int (he was on fire this year)
Russell Wilson - Played 2 games, 4 TDs, 2 Int
Drew Brees - Missed Playoffs

So basically, we have one QB who performed excellent, 1 QB who performed okay, 1 QB who didn't make it, and 1 QB who performed "poorly." With one of those games being the 3rd coldest in NFL history

2017

Tom Brady - Played 3 games, 8 TDs, 0 Int. Excellent
Russell Wilson- Missed playoffs. Blamed by anti-Russ critics for missing the playoffs(Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees never miss the playoffs even when healthy)
Aaron Rodgers - Missed Playoffs, injury
Drew Brees - Played 2 games, 5 TDs, 3 Int

So in 2017, we have 2 Qbs here who missed the playoffs. One who performed okay, and one who performed excellent (Brady).


2018

Tom Brady - Played 3 games, 2 TDs, 3 Int
Russell Wilson - Played 1 game, 2 TD, 0 Int
Aaron Rodgers - Missed Playoffs
Drew Brees - Played 2 games, 4 TDs, 2 Int


So this year, we have a QB who made the Super Bowl with questionable performances. Russ, who was bounced out in the Wild Card round, Aaron Rodgers who was injured again, and Drew Brees who performed poorly in moments and gave a mostly average performance


So, in summary, out of the three top tier QBs not named Wilson (because you know, he's sucked since 2015 in the playoffs), only ONE of the Elite QBs made it to the playoffs all four years. Two of the others (Brees and Rodgers) missed the playoffs twice. Russell and Brady are the only QBs in this group to make the playoffs 3 out of the last four years. Since 2015 Russell has averaged 1.8 TDs a game, along with Tom Brady. Russ also averaged 13 less attempts than Brady, and up to 8 attempts less than the other aforementioned QBs.

So given the fact that Brady is the only consistent QB to appear in the playoffs, and given Brady's per game performance in comparison, what exactly are we arguing here? Instead of pretending as if the "Russ defenders" are just defending their Lord and Savior, how about asking yourselves some reflective questions. Such as "Wow, gee golly am I being unfair to Russ? Are my criticisms of Russ' supposed shortcomings that much unlike the other great QBs over the course of their career? Is it possible that I'm holding Russ to a double standard?"

The answer to all of those latter questions is likely, well, yes. No matter how irritated and annoyed some of you may be that people are challenging your biased perspectives. If you're going to criticize Russ, let's not exaggerate. If I felt Russ didn't meet the standard, I'd admit it. Let's have equivalent, fairly discussed comparisons. Thanks.

Side Note: Oh, and since 2012, when also including Andrew Luck and Ben Roethlisberger, Russell has the 2nd highest QB rating, the 2nd most TDs, and is tied for the 3rd most overall TDS per game with Drew Brees. But anyway, nitpick away

Great post spot on and while this should end this thread, it will not because of the inability of those to get by their prejudices and need to lessen our ELITE QB.

 

[John63]

Lets say you are right and both can be true, please find me a QB in the playoffs that has been "lights out" in the playoffs that did not have a very good to a great team? Let me help you, you cant.

oh and for 2015-2018 his number per game are

238 yards per game, 64% complete, 1.8tds, 1 int, 95 Qb rating those far form bad numbers.

According to PFR it's 238 yards per game, 63%, 1.8, 1 int/game (to Brady's 0.7), and 91 QBR.

They're not horrible, but they're not Brady. That's where I was going, since that's where you went.

Also...just my advice, though I think I've given it before...quit being such a sarcastic little snot with every paragraph. You're acting oddly angry and defensive in your posts and it makes you unpleasant to debate.

The point of the debate is he has been bad in the playoff since 2015, which is what was said, clearly that is untrue. As to if he would have scored more than 13 I think so, but that is an opinion with no facts to support. However, it is a fact he has not been bad in the playoffs and in fact overall has been good since 2015 till now.

So you're just repeating your previous post as if I never made one...

No I am reminding of what this debate was about and how there really is no debate whether looking at career or just since 2015 Wilson has played as well in the playoffs as the supposed GOAT and as pointed out in the post above yours has also played as well or better than 2 other Elite QB, and therefore it is not accurate to say he has not. Wilson ha splayed well in the playoffs since 2015 and for his career.

 

[nwHawk]

Leave out deep sideline passes, how many times have you heard questions about Russ either missing a WR because he was late, didn't anticipate or he couldn't pull the trigger?

Part of being an elite QB, outside of stats, is doing the little things that JAGs struggle with. I would love to see Russ learn how to regularly hit an intermediate target, and also throw a receiver open. Russ also has a tendency to hold the ball to long waiting for a big play ignoring alternate options, and has been criticized by analysts for causing some of his own sacks. I do think he got a little better with this this year. Those are things that don't show up on a stat sheet. You have to watch, and often rewatch, games and consider stats, situations, missed assignments, etc...

 

[AgentDib]

If you want more, I can provide more.

I objected to your assertion that every objective source agrees with you. The two you mentioned have already been discussed to death and reasons why many may disagree with them have been posted on the applicable threads.

The core reason behind the divide here has to do with whether the offense should be maximizing points or maximizing win probability, and the recognition that the two goals are different is a requirement to being able to have a productive discussion.

Any argument that we should not have called a type of play should dive into the specifics of that exact play call to be worth discussing. Grouping plays into "running" and "passing" is laughably overly reductive and I get the feeling that some members of the NFL blogosphere have only recently realized that YPA typically dwarfs YPC and have not had the time to consider why teams may choose to maintain the run/pass balances they do in spite of that. Or, less charitably, they do realize that the complexities throw a wrench into their analysis but choose to ignore them in favor of spitting out another article based on the limited stats that they do know how to work with.

 

[KiwiHawk]

You're right. Wilson didn't play with two injured guards. He instead played with 2017 Germain Ifedi, who averaged a pressure in every game and allowed at least three in 10 games in 2017. Do you need me to quote past numbers too for say, Rees Odhiambo?

The point was, Russell has played in rougher circumstances, against tough defenses. We have a 125 game sample size of him performing under different conditions. If you only focused on the one game then you should never analyze a game, because the best predictor of future performance is past performance. The idea that a QB who played the entire 2016 season with a terrible knee injury and torn pectoral, the most hit QB for a stretch of 3-4 years under 3 seconds...playing against a team that was SELLING OUT AGAINST THE RUN couldn't give a spark to the offense is, well..basic

You're right - All games are exactly the same therefore directly comparable. You win.

 

[John63]

Leave out deep sideline passes, how many times have you heard questions about Russ either missing a WR because he was late, didn't anticipate or he couldn't pull the trigger?

Part of being an elite QB, outside of stats, is doing the little things that JAGs struggle with. I would love to see Russ learn how to regularly hit an intermediate target, and also throw a receiver open. Russ also has a tendency to hold the ball to long waiting for a big play ignoring alternate options, and has been criticized by analysts for causing some of his own sacks. I do think he got a little better with this this year. Those are things that don't show up on a stat sheet. You have to watch, and often rewatch, games and consider stats, situations, missed assignments, etc...

So let's see the pass chart shows with facts and stats he does hit intermediate targets, so that is factually incorrect. As to throwing people open, he led the league in tight window throws, that means the WR was not open, but he made a throw that made them open. So again that is factually incorrect. I do agree at times he does run into a sack. So you got one, Part of being an Elie QB is being able to make something out of nothing which he does in spades. As to "the big play" considering that is the way the HC wants to play you might want to talk with him. I mean unless your good with him taking the 3 yard check down on 3rd and 10 and us punting as opposed to him trying to get oh the first down. The part that once again is funny to me and where I laugh at most of you is how you say these things, about Wilson like all the other ELITE QBs are perfect. I mean I would love to see Brady not get rattled as soon as he gets hit once, or be able to run and get a first down consistently when the defense gives it to him, or any one of a number of things Brady does not do well, and there are plenty. OR every other ELITE QB, none do it all well, if they did everyone would complete 100% of their passes and have a perfect QB rating every game.

For some reason, some on this board hold Wilson to a much higher standard than any other ELITE QB in the league and it laughable to me. What's funniest it almost always starts with forget the stats, and take away the sideline throws, take away pretty much 95% of what an ELITE QB should do and Wilson does, and lets focus on the 5% or less of what an ELITE QB should do that Wilson does not and forget no other ELITE QB does 100% of what an ELITE QB should do.

There are also things you don't see when you rewatch them because you don't want to, like oh the MLB in the throwing lane, or someone about to hit the throwing arm, or no throwing lane or any one of a number of things. I bring this up because Collingsworth on one of the game broadcasts said Wilson did pull the trigger on a throw, but the next day on KFY after relooking he said it was a good non-throw as the MLB was underneath and would have intercepted it, and that he did not see it live. The reality is unless you get to see the play just like the QB sees it you have no clue what is and is not open, also unless you know exactly the play, and what marching orders the HC gave the QB you really don't know squat. So do I think Wilson is the PERFECT ELITE QB, no? However no QB ever to play is perfect, they all miss throws, make mistakes. Do I think Wilson is as ELITE as any QB playing today.. yes and fortunately the facts, stats, and unbiased eye test prove it.

All that aside, once again we have someone wanting to denigrate a Seahawks player and because they cannot do it with facts or stats, the use the old eye test, and of course also want us to ignore certain facets of the player performance that does not help their stance. So do I pick opinion or facts and stats? Its really easy like all the experts the facts and stats win over factless opinion every time.


You know what I changed my mind you guys are ri8ght I just checked the facts, Wilson has never thrown a TD pass in the last 1 second of the game, with a blood red moon on the 5th Sunday of September, god he sucks. This is what some of you sound like :sarcasm_off:

 

[AgentDib]

For some reason, some on this board hold Wilson to a much higher standard than any other ELITE QB in the league and it laughable to me.

You are surprised that some Hawks fans are more critical of inconsistent play from a Hawks QB than they are another QB? I'd say that sounds reasonable, and also similar to Hawks fans who are harder on the Hawks offense vs. the Cowboys than they are on McVay's Rams offense vs. the Patriots.

 

[nwHawk]

There are also things you don't see when you rewatch them because you don't want to

Yea right. Most games I rewatch at least twice, and usually I watch the All-22 tape. But I guess you already had stats on that already. Nice try.

Hey Agent, loved your second to last post. You verbalized a point that usually gets glossed over. Nice work.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

For some reason, some on this board hold Wilson to a much higher standard than any other ELITE QB in the league and it laughable to me.

You are surprised that some Hawks fans are more critical of inconsistent play from a Hawks QB than they are another QB? I'd say that sounds reasonable, and also similar to Hawks fans who are harder on the Hawks offense vs. the Cowboys than they are on McVay's Rams offense vs. the Patriots.

How is expecting your QB to perform better than other QB's of his talent level "reasonable?"

 

[MontanaHawk05]

According to PFR it's 238 yards per game, 63%, 1.8, 1 int/game (to Brady's 0.7), and 91 QBR.

They're not horrible, but they're not Brady. That's where I was going, since that's where you went.

Also...just my advice, though I think I've given it before...quit being such a sarcastic little snot with every paragraph. You're acting oddly angry and defensive in your posts and it makes you unpleasant to debate.

The point of the debate is he has been bad in the playoff since 2015, which is what was said, clearly that is untrue. As to if he would have scored more than 13 I think so, but that is an opinion with no facts to support. However, it is a fact he has not been bad in the playoffs and in fact overall has been good since 2015 till now.

So you're just repeating your previous post as if I never made one...

No I am reminding of what this debate was about and how there really is no debate whether looking at career or just since 2015 Wilson has played as well in the playoffs as the supposed GOAT and as pointed out in the post above yours has also played as well or better than 2 other Elite QB, and therefore it is not accurate to say he has not. Wilson ha splayed well in the playoffs since 2015 and for his career.

I've given you numbers that refute everything you just said. He's been mediocre in the postseason since 2014, definitely not Brady.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I still think that Wilson would be much more effective in the playoffs in another system.

He could easily be Mahomes for the Chiefs if he played there, as a for instance.

He would most certainly rocket past Dak Prescott if he was in Dallas. And I am betting he would be a better Carson Wentz (spelling?) in Philly. But we are not discussing potential, we are discussing results.

Dib pointed out the challenge. Should the offense should be maximizing points or maximizing win probability?

The problem inherent is that tactics to maximize win probability in the regular season do not translate in the post season. And that would be because tactics that create a 'floor' of wins work because 50% of the opponents (at least) are not playoff caliber. Against better teams, with better coaches, keeping the game close increases the chance you lose - especially if you have a coach that not only does not make adjustments but makes no effort to hide his approach/strategy/tactics or even take advantage of weaknesses in the opponent gameplan.

Even though keeping the game close also leaves you vulnerable to mistakes like missed calls, referee steering, bad calls, etc. Our strategy and approach assures our floor is also pretty much our ceiling.

Our coaches go in committed to a style of play regardless of the opponents' own strategy/tactics. Meanwhile the opponent makes adjustments to take advantage of weaknesses in our own execution - we steadfastly cling to our plan until the 4th quarter.

Worse, even though Wilson is literally one of the more difficult players on the field to defend, we not only don't exploit that...we mitigate it. It would be like the Warriors running the bulk of their offense through Looney, Iguodala or Green even though they have Curry and Durant. Sure Green can still make shots, but the defenders would much rather he take them than Curry. Do you think the Warriors would win as much if Klay, Curry and Durant only started shooting midway through the 4th?

While I like defense too, the objective in Football is to score more than the other team. This is difficult if you don't prioritize scoring until the 4th quarter. And it is going to be difficult for Wilson to be used to playing well for an entire playoff game if he has multiple games where he barely throws for 50 yds in a half during the regular season.

We have a system that extracts near the minimum value from one of our best players. A player we will need to pay 30M+ to keep.

 

[AgentDib]

For some reason, some on this board hold Wilson to a much higher standard than any other ELITE QB in the league and it laughable to me.

You are surprised that some Hawks fans are more critical of inconsistent play from a Hawks QB than they are another QB? I'd say that sounds reasonable, and also similar to Hawks fans who are harder on the Hawks offense vs. the Cowboys than they are on McVay's Rams offense vs. the Patriots.

How is expecting your QB to perform better than other QB's of his talent level "reasonable?"

It isn't, but it is reasonable to expect fans to be unreasonable in this manner. Sort of like how it isn't reasonable to use a "free" ticket to an event you weren't willing to pay for when you can easily resell the ticket instead, but most people do it anyway because they find the transaction process distasteful. A fundamental assumption behind economics is that humans behave rationally but often you need to make a few soft assumptions along the way to explain why rational people exhibit irrational behavior.

Which reminds me of the following true story about a party stuck on a desert island with a stockpile of canned goods but no way to open them. A physicist in the group proposed dropping the cans from a calculated height onto a sharp rock. The chemist in the party argued for heating the cans for 15 minutes over a fire. The economist interjected, "Well, if we first assume that we have a can opener..."