Russ Scores More Than 13.

[Scorpion05]

^^ Pete and Andy Reid have actually given Belicheck the most trouble. Check the history

Russ absolutely would have played better than Goff, and he already KNOWS how to win ugly. He's done it several times :roll:

The only difference is, compared to Brady...he doesn't get credit for winning ugly. When Russ plays ugly, everyone credits the defense...and there would be at least five detractors on here claiming he's a game manager and that he wasn't the main reason we won.

Russ can't get away with throwing a pick yesterday like Brady did without someone bringing it up. Or throwing 2 picks(almost 3) in the Chiefs game and winning. Had Russ won a game against the Chiefs like Brady did, everyone would be saying the running game and defense carried him. A lot of this has a lot to do with how we perceive QBs. We praise Brady and give him all the credit, and we sometimes find excuses NOT to give Russ credit

 

[KiwiHawk]

^^ Pete and Andy Reid have actually given Belicheck the most trouble. Check the history

Russ absolutely would have played better than Goff, and he already KNOWS how to win ugly. He's done it several times :roll:

The only difference is, compared to Brady...he doesn't get credit for winning ugly. When Russ plays ugly, everyone credits the defense...and there would be at least five detractors on here claiming he's a game manager and that he wasn't the main reason we won.

Russ can't get away with throwing a pick yesterday like Brady did without someone bringing it up. Or throwing 2 picks(almost 3) in the Chiefs game and winning. Had Russ won a game against the Chiefs like Brady did, everyone would be saying the running game and defense carried him. A lot of this has a lot to do with how we perceive QBs. We praise Brady and give him all the credit, and we sometimes find excuses NOT to give Russ credit

The opposite is also true. If you dare to bring up a flaw in Wilson, people will jump on you for it as an overreaction to their perception that Wilson doesn't get the respect he deserves when he has a good game. When Russ has a bad game, some people will pounce on anyone who dares to criticise him. Or they will use the defense, running game, special teams, offensive line, etc. to excuse the off game, similarly to how people use the defense, running game, etc. to mitigate when Wilson had a good game.

It happens both ways. For whatever reason, the loudest posters here are the ones who like to dwell on negatives.

 

[Scorpion05]

^^ The opposite isn’t true, and your post kind of proves it. Russ is already the best QB in franchise history and has performed at a high level. By every objective metric. Yet, he has detractors who are obsessed with highlighting his “flaws.” That is not normal. So while you would like to claim that the Russ defenders jump down people’s throats, it’s largely because the criticism doesn’t match his production. The criticism instead matches the performance of lesser QBs in the league

That’s the overall point. Russ is held to a higher standard and overly scrutinized by a noticeable population of his own fan base. Like I said, he doesn’t get credit for winning ugly or grinding out wins the way Brady and a few others have. And even if Russ wins more rings, that vocal minority will continue to be loud and be flabbergasted when the “Russ fanatics” come to his defense. And rightly so

 

[TwistedHusky]

If you are an elite QB, you need to produce in the playoffs.

Wilson has not done anything of note in the playoffs outside of the wildcard games, but for the times he had an all world Defense and a Marshawn Lynch as a safety blanket.

He does produce in the regular season. But then again, Jacksonville beats the Patriots in the regular season. So what. Have a cookie. Potential is potential but production is production. He has not produced reliably and consistently in the playoffs but for the years with a stellar defense covering up his inconsistency.

Admittedly, Wilson is very likely being held back by his own coaching staff. But again, if you want to be an Elite QB - you get additional scrutiny and accountability. 30M QBs should still be able to produce when the opposing team is expecting it.

I think Wilson is a great QB, but he has not produced in the playoffs in a long time. So thinking he would produce in a SB when he does not even produce in any of the other playoff rounds is weird and wishful...at best.

Wilson CAN be elite in the playoffs, I firmly believe that. But he has not been in a long time, at least 4-5 years. If anything, he squandered a number of pretty good defensive performances with poor play in the playoffs.

 

[Scorpion05]

Thanks for proving my point. "Wilson has not done anything in the playoffs." Lol. At this point...between claiming that Pete Carroll is no match for Belicheck..or claiming that Wilson does nothing in the playoffs...it's clear you and a few others don't care about facts

Russ' playoff performances speaks for itself. Did you even bother to check your bias by looking at all 13 of his playoff games? An objective look at Brady's performance would tell you that Belicheck is equally as responsible for his success. It's because of Belicheck why they were able to shut down 3 of the top offenses in the league in a row (Chargers, Chiefs, Rams). Brady's performance in several playoff games, especially conference championship games has been debatable and pedestrian at times. That is, again if you actually CARE about facts and fairness

Brady is great. But claiming that elite QBs "perform" in the playoffs when Russ' performance in several playoff games has been impressive is borderline pitiful

 

[lukerguy]

There's no way the defense allows only 13 though

 

[TwistedHusky]

He has done nothing since 2015. It is now 2019.

( I suppose you can give him credit against the Panthers, but then again the reason they needed to try to make a comeback was because he put the Seahawks in a giant hole to begin with)

There is literally zero reason to expect that he would be able to produce in the SB (which is what this thread is about) considering how spotty (if that) his playoff performances have been when he wasn't playing the Detroit Lions.

I think under a different coach you would see different and more productive results. But it is laughable to give Wilson credit for accomplishments he has been a long way from achieving for some time. He wouldn't have produced better in the playoffs because he couldn't even produce against the freaking Cowboys THIS year. Much less a SB.

And he doesn't win divisional or conference playoff games without his all time defense propping him up. In the years since we lost that...he has done nothing of note in the playoffs.

You can dispute all you want but the actual results say otherwise.

 

[mrblitz]

if you had a defense like the rams were yesterday, combined with a healthy seahawks offense, new england would have lost. seahawks with a gimpy fluker, and simmons out might not have gotten a lot of points. on the other hand, the seahawks with a decent o-line and russell at qb.. they would have won this game.

 

[KiwiHawk]

^^ The opposite isn’t true, and your post kind of proves it. Russ is already the best QB in franchise history and has performed at a high level. By every objective metric. Yet, he has detractors who are obsessed with highlighting his “flaws.” That is not normal. So while you would like to claim that the Russ defenders jump down people’s throats, it’s largely because the criticism doesn’t match his production. The criticism instead matches the performance of lesser QBs in the league

That’s the overall point. Russ is held to a higher standard and overly scrutinized by a noticeable population of his own fan base. Like I said, he doesn’t get credit for winning ugly or grinding out wins the way Brady and a few others have. And even if Russ wins more rings, that vocal minority will continue to be loud and be flabbergasted when the “Russ fanatics” come to his defense. And rightly so

The thing is, nobody is perfect. No one has ever been perfect, and no one will ever be perfect.

This is a discussion site. We're supposed to be able to talk about the players on the team.

So if you combine those two ideas, then it's entirely possible to discuss an actual or perceived problem with any given player without taking the side that the player is rubbish.

Some people can't understand that. They think the instant you talk about a flaw, you "hate" the player. It's just not true.

In my opinion, it's part of the binary thought process (you are for me or against me, you are democrat or republican, you are right wing or left wing) - a logical fallacy that is commonly adopted because it is easy. If you put someone in a particular basket, then you can attribute to him all that is attributed to those in the basket. For example, if someone has an issue with a part of Wilson's game then he's anti-Wilson and all anti-Wilson people believe X and Y so you can argue X and Y vs the poster.

But it's not true. You can think he's the most amazing QB to ever step on the field, but sheesh if he had only led the receiver enough in that one game 7 with 4:56 to go it might have been a TD instead of a field goal, and surely enough you will get people spouting off to you about his statistics and completion rates and everything else unrelated that "proves" you wrong.

That's just people being lazy and not bothering to read or understand peoples' opinions and actually engage with what they are talking about instead of bashing away at some foe who's not even there.

The alternative is the entire forum consists of:

Topic 1: Wilson is great
Post 1: Wilson is great.
Post 2: Yup.

/End forum.

 

[chris98251]

So your saying that Brady does everything without Edelman, Gronk, Amedela, Branch, Dillon, Michel, his defense over the years, Watson, Hernandez, Randy Moss, etc?

Brady has been the guy that has been there along with Belichek, but he has had a very good supporting cast just like Wilson when he was playing well.

 

[Scorpion05]

He has done nothing since 2015. It is now 2019.

( I suppose you can give him credit against the Panthers, but then again the reason they needed to try to make a comeback was because he put the Seahawks in a giant hole to begin with)

There is literally zero reason to expect that he would be able to produce in the SB (which is what this thread is about) considering how spotty (if that) his playoff performances have been when he wasn't playing the Detroit Lions.

I think under a different coach you would see different and more productive results. But it is laughable to give Wilson credit for accomplishments he has been a long way from achieving for some time. He wouldn't have produced better in the playoffs because he couldn't even produce against the freaking Cowboys THIS year. Much less a SB.

And he doesn't win divisional or conference playoff games without his all time defense propping him up. In the years since we lost that...he has done nothing of note in the playoffs.

You can dispute all you want but the actual results say otherwise.

Okay so let's get this straight, just to be on the same page.

He's made the playoffs six out of the last seven years (and led the team in rushing the year we didn't), and to you, he's done nothing.

In 2016, he won a playoff game and made it to the divisional round. Ditto for 2015. This year many people argue Carroll didn't let him throw enough when he actually performed well. And your argument is, he did nothing

So, let me ask you this. WHO are you comparing him to????? Tom Brady? Who didn't win a SB or have much success in the playoffs for 10 years since 2004?? Who struggled in conference championship games and "put his team in a hole" the same way Brady did against the Rams yesterday? Brady's offense didn't score more than 3 freakin points until the 4th quarter yesterday. What if his defense didn't play well?

Or Aaron Rodgers? What playoff success has he had since 2010???

Seriously, what objective, fair, rational, non-biased metric are you judging Russell by? Because it darn sure isn't facts? So what is it then?

 

[Scorpion05]

^^ The opposite isn’t true, and your post kind of proves it. Russ is already the best QB in franchise history and has performed at a high level. By every objective metric. Yet, he has detractors who are obsessed with highlighting his “flaws.” That is not normal. So while you would like to claim that the Russ defenders jump down people’s throats, it’s largely because the criticism doesn’t match his production. The criticism instead matches the performance of lesser QBs in the league

That’s the overall point. Russ is held to a higher standard and overly scrutinized by a noticeable population of his own fan base. Like I said, he doesn’t get credit for winning ugly or grinding out wins the way Brady and a few others have. And even if Russ wins more rings, that vocal minority will continue to be loud and be flabbergasted when the “Russ fanatics” come to his defense. And rightly so

The thing is, nobody is perfect. No one has ever been perfect, and no one will ever be perfect.

This is a discussion site. We're supposed to be able to talk about the players on the team.

So if you combine those two ideas, then it's entirely possible to discuss an actual or perceived problem with any given player without taking the side that the player is rubbish.

Some people can't understand that. They think the instant you talk about a flaw, you "hate" the player. It's just not true.

In my opinion, it's part of the binary thought process (you are for me or against me, you are democrat or republican, you are right wing or left wing) - a logical fallacy that is commonly adopted because it is easy. If you put someone in a particular basket, then you can attribute to him all that is attributed to those in the basket. For example, if someone has an issue with a part of Wilson's game then he's anti-Wilson and all anti-Wilson people believe X and Y so you can argue X and Y vs the poster.

But it's not true. You can think he's the most amazing QB to ever step on the field, but sheesh if he had only led the receiver enough in that one game 7 with 4:56 to go it might have been a TD instead of a field goal, and surely enough you will get people spouting off to you about his statistics and completion rates and everything else unrelated that "proves" you wrong.

That's just people being lazy and not bothering to read or understand peoples' opinions and actually engage with what they are talking about instead of bashing away at some foe who's not even there.

The alternative is the entire forum consists of:

Topic 1: Wilson is great
Post 1: Wilson is great.
Post 2: Yup.

/End forum.

Absolutely. Wilson has his flaws. But your premise was that Wilson can't be criticized. My point was that Wilson is OVERLY criticized and that he faces a lot of criticism when accounting for his production. That he doesn't get credit for winning ugly. Not once did I claim that Russ doesn't have his flaws. I myself have acknowledged them. But that's not the type of criticism and dismissiveness I'm talking about. I'm mainly talking about those that hold Russ to a standard very few, if any are held to by a noticeable, and loud minority

 

[TwistedHusky]

Look if you want to fete Wilson, fete him for what he is.

He is absolutely unflappable. He produces in adversity. You could literally coat the football with vaseline, staple raw pork chops to him and then release a pack of hungry wolves after him. He would run around, make 3 wolves miss and then complete the pass.

But he isn't consistent at all. And he is almost worthless for a full half of almost any playoff game.

He doesn't do anything for 2 quarters. He is a fount of 3 and outs. And he puts his team in holes.

Realistically, his production in the playoffs has been hot garbage since 2015.

2015: He beat the Vikings, because they missed a gimme FG. He was then the reason the Hawks were shelled by the Panthers.

2016: He beat the Lions soundly. But that was the Lions. A team that won nothing in the playoffs for years and will win nothing for a long time. Beating the Lions is no accomplishment and you know it. He was then destroyed and embarrassed by the Falcons.

2017: Missed the playoffs entirely.

2018: Was the worst QB on the field in a game where the other QB was freaking DAK PRESCOTT. Couldn't even produce in a wildcard game with perfect weather AND decent turf (in a dome).

Please tell me again how great Wilson is in the playoffs? Because he has been an inconsistent non-producer for 4 years now. Getting outshined by freaking Dak Prescott. If you cannot beat Dak Prescott, how good are you really?

Wilson has been able to beat the Lions in the playoffs. That is his great playoff resume since he lost his all everything Defense. And last year he HAD an OL and at least average RB (if not above average) - so we are running out of excuses for why he cannot produce. Now if you want to blame how they use him? Sure. But until he actually does something you don't get to give him credit for successes he hasn't produced.

 

[nwHawk]

Admittedly, Wilson is very likely being held back by his own coaching staff. But again, if you want to be an Elite QB - you get additional scrutiny and accountability. 30M QBs should still be able to produce when the opposing team is expecting it.

... If anything, he squandered a number of pretty good defensive performances with poor play in the playoffs.

At some point the question has to be asked, why would the coaches hold him back? Everytime I hear that I think, dang, maybe we are setting unrealistic expectations for Russ. Maybe the coaches have insight (as they should) that we aren't privy to seeing first hand.

He's a gamer. He's a heck of a competitor. He's taken this team to two Sooper Bowls and I'll always be greatful. But it feels like we, as fans, are having our own variation of "Matt Ryan is elite". Always protecting our QB.

A 30 million dollar QB is paid that much for past performance. How many players leave the Seahawks to play at Elite levels compared to the number of players that play at an average level elsewhere? I believe he has a hard time scanning the field through traffic, and is better as a one read QB. He could still win another one here in Seattle, but the defense will have to be solid.

 

[Scorpion05]

Look if you want to fete Wilson, fete him for what he is.

He is absolutely unflappable. He produces in adversity. You could literally coat the football with vaseline, staple raw pork chops to him and then release a pack of hungry wolves after him. He would run around, make 3 wolves miss and then complete the pass.

But he isn't consistent at all. And he is almost worthless for a full half of almost any playoff game.

He doesn't do anything for 2 quarters. He is a fount of 3 and outs. And he puts his team in holes.

Realistically, his production in the playoffs has been hot garbage since 2015.

2015: He beat the Vikings, because they missed a gimme FG. He was then the reason the Hawks were shelled by the Panthers.

2016: He beat the Lions soundly. But that was the Lions. A team that won nothing in the playoffs for years and will win nothing for a long time. Beating the Lions is no accomplishment and you know it. He was then destroyed and embarrassed by the Falcons.

2017: Missed the playoffs entirely.

2018: Was the worst QB on the field in a game where the other QB was freaking DAK PRESCOTT. Couldn't even produce in a wildcard game with perfect weather AND decent turf (in a dome).

Please tell me again how great Wilson is in the playoffs? Because he has been an inconsistent non-producer for 4 years now. Getting outshined by freaking Dak Prescott. If you cannot beat Dak Prescott, how good are you really?

Wilson has been able to beat the Lions in the playoffs. That is his great playoff resume since he lost his all everything Defense. And last year he HAD an OL and at least average RB (if not above average) - so we are running out of excuses for why he cannot produce. Now if you want to blame how they use him? Sure. But until he actually does something you don't get to give him credit for successes he hasn't produced.

2015: He beat the Vikings, in absolutely freezing cold weather, and made the plays necessary to win. The Vikings did not make the plays necessary to win, that's why they lost

2016: He beat the Lions period. Trying to dismiss that is a petty, biased attempt to undermine what was a solid performance. And is a standard you would hold no other Quarterback to

2017: He missed the playoffs by one game. With an O-line ranked near dead last, a non-existent running game, and loads of injuries on defense. He literally CARRIED the team. You are also a Hypocrite for saying Wilson only won the Vikings playoff game because of a missed "gimme field goal" by the VERY KICKER THAT COST US AT LEAST THREE GAMES in 2017 :lol:

2018: He completed 66% of his passes and was virtually excellent for much of the game. Every objective analyst pointed out that Schotty/Pete failed to adapt

All your other comments about him disappearing for quarters and putting his teams in holes can only factually be attributed to 2017, arguably...under rough circumstances. So we've established at this point that you don't care about facts, or being fair...you just care about putting Wilson down in whichever way possible. When you are able to make reasonable comparisons to other QBs to highlight Wilson's failures or come with more substance maybe this debate will go somewhere. Since you've conveniently chosen to gloss over the point made about Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady. Or shown how Wilson struggles compared to other great QBs

 

[AgentDib]

Every objective analyst pointed out that Schotty/Pete failed to adapt

Not your main point but this is nonsense. You may feel that way but there are plenty of people who disagree with the hot takes on this one and the opinions that match your own do not magically become the objective ones.

 

[KiwiHawk]

2018: He completed 66% of his passes and was virtually excellent for much of the game. Every objective analyst pointed out that Schotty/Pete failed to adapt

This has been repeated enough that for some it's now biblical truth. For me, not so much.

The underlying assumption of this idea is that there was a successful adaptation available that they failed to make. I doubt that. I don't think the passing game was working - regardless of completion statistics, because of the game the Dallas front 7 were having against our O-Line. Passing more simply would have had Wilson following Hurd to the hospital.

At some point a smart coach sees that and understands it and saves his player for another day.

And with the lack of an available *successful* alternative, you stick to what you do and hope you get a break.

Realistically, we lacked the depth to go anywhere in the playoffs. We ran out of guys. This happens when teams are rebuilding because they are on the lookout for starters, not packing in quality backups for depth. It's not the time to play high-risk with your franchise player.

 

[John63]

Admittedly, Wilson is very likely being held back by his own coaching staff. But again, if you want to be an Elite QB - you get additional scrutiny and accountability. 30M QBs should still be able to produce when the opposing team is expecting it.

... If anything, he squandered a number of pretty good defensive performances with poor play in the playoffs.

At some point the question has to be asked, why would the coaches hold him back? Everytime I hear that I think, dang, maybe we are setting unrealistic expectations for Russ. Maybe the coaches have insight (as they should) that we aren't privy to seeing first hand.

He's a gamer. He's a heck of a competitor. He's taken this team to two Sooper Bowls and I'll always be greatful. But it feels like we, as fans, are having our own variation of "Matt Ryan is elite". Always protecting our QB.

A 30 million dollar QB is paid that much for past performance. How many players leave the Seahawks to play at Elite levels compared to the number of players that play at an average level elsewhere? I believe he has a hard time scanning the field through traffic, and is better as a one read QB. He could still win another one here in Seattle, but the defense will have to be solid.

That is fine and you are entitled to your opinion, but the facts, experts and stats show it is wrong and is not a 1 read QB, and he can obviously see to all parts of the field as (see thread on throwing over the middle for stats), he has no problem completing passes to all parts of the filed at or better than avg. Add to that the HC himself has said he does not like to take chances, and he like sot keep the game close and win in the 4th. Both of those things hold a QB back. SO once again what we have is someone with an opinion not supported by facts that denigrate what Wilson brings. In the end that is really6 all most people who do this have their opinion with little to nothing to support it, and what little they do have, or other things can be held against every top QB in the league, but for some reason they seem to think only Wilson makes mistakes, only Wilson has shortcomings. Forgetting that they all do to include Brady. There is no perfect Qb lets stop making so that anything less than PErfect out of Wilson means is not worthy, because he is. OH and FYI did you watch the SB Brady needed a great Defense to win, guess whatever year he won an SB he had a really good to great defense.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Again, go back to the title of the thread.

The OP asserts 'Russ would have scored more than 13'. There is almost an implication that in doing so, we would have won the SB had we been there.

The truth is that in no scenario would Russ have been able to carry this team to a win in a playoff game against the Patriots. First, because Carroll would have never let him. Second, because we wouldn't bother to score or even try to score until we were down by at least a TD, then we would come back to score and try to sit on the lead until the Patriots came back and took the lead, beating us in doing so.

Russ would not have scored 13 anyway because he has not produced in the playoffs in some time. Only against the Lions (a team that has done nothing since that playoff appearance, in fact fired their coach. So essentially one of the weakest playoff opponents you could get - or more accurately a team that should not have been there and was only there at all because several better teams stumbled down the stretch.)

However, since Russ has not produced effectively in the playoffs besides that. There is no reason to believe that a defense that was able to shut down the Chiefs for one half (one of the best offenses in the league with a better QB) would somehow struggle with Russ. This is ESPECIALLY true given the reality that when the Cowboys were selling out against the run and daring Wilson to throw it - he still looked like a worse QB than Dak Prescott.

I repeat, against a defense that literally left the door open for Wilson to be effective, he still fell short. But he would somehow beat the Patriots? That is laughable.

Yes, he can beat the Patriots in the regular season, just like the Jaguars can beat the Patriots in the regular season. But his coach goes into a low risk, low reward mode in the playoffs and Wilson isn't consistent enough in the playoffs to score consistently in all 4 quarters unless he is playing the Lions (again, a team that wasn't really playoff caliber anyway).

Wilson can beat a wildcard team in the playoffs. He isn't consistent enough to carry a team to wins against division winners in the playoffs - certainly not with an average or even slightly above average defense. So there is no way he could even hope to beat a Super Bowl team in the playoffs. He wouldn't have scored 13, and his defense would have given up 20+ anyway.

 

[Scorpion05]

Every objective analyst pointed out that Schotty/Pete failed to adapt

Not your main point but this is nonsense. You may feel that way but there are plenty of people who disagree with the hot takes on this one and the opinions that match your own do not magically become the objective ones.

"Nonsense" or "Hot take" would imply that it wasn't supported by actual statistics and facts to support that the playcalling was predictable. The people who disagreed with that "hot take" only made the point that we had a run first identity and we had to stick with what got us there. Which is completely counter intuitive to championship football(see Patriots and the ability to adapt)

So no, that's not a "hot take"...or nonsense. Many analysts pointed out the numbers and the extremely predictable playcalling, production be damned in some cases. If you need me to post the information I and others have posted before, as well as what other media members have noted I'm happy to do so. So that point is still weak. Russell should have thrown the ball more, good teams adapt when something isn't working. This is basic, elementary level football logic. I have no interest in stubbornly supporting an opinion that isn't based on solid information