Russ Scores More Than 13.

[Scorpion05]

2018: He completed 66% of his passes and was virtually excellent for much of the game. Every objective analyst pointed out that Schotty/Pete failed to adapt

This has been repeated enough that for some it's now biblical truth. For me, not so much.

The underlying assumption of this idea is that there was a successful adaptation available that they failed to make. I doubt that. I don't think the passing game was working - regardless of completion statistics, because of the game the Dallas front 7 were having against our O-Line. Passing more simply would have had Wilson following Hurd to the hospital.

At some point a smart coach sees that and understands it and saves his player for another day.

And with the lack of an available *successful* alternative, you stick to what you do and hope you get a break.

Realistically, we lacked the depth to go anywhere in the playoffs. We ran out of guys. This happens when teams are rebuilding because they are on the lookout for starters, not packing in quality backups for depth. It's not the time to play high-risk with your franchise player.

It's not simply biblical truth, it's basic fact you can rewatch for yourself on NFL Gamepass. Even Youtube might help

We did have success passing the ball. To deny that is stubbornness. At minimum, we failed even more running the ball.

If we passed too much and didn't run the ball enough despite averaging 5 yards per carry, I'm pretty sure you and others would say "We should have run the ball more." Russell has played with a poor O-line for over half of his career and led the league in tight window throws the entire season. He won 9 games in 2017 with one of the WORST running games in recent NFL history Claiming that somehow we wouldn't have had success passing because of the Dallas front seven is laughable when you take all 125 games he's played in his entire career into account. If Belicheck was Russell's coach, there's zero chance they don't adjust. The Patriots couldn't get anything working for 3 quarters but were constantly willing to try something new. Again, this is basic

 

[Seymour]

Again, go back to the title of the thread.

The OP asserts 'Russ would have scored more than 13'. There is almost an implication that in doing so, we would have won the SB had we been there.

The truth is that in no scenario would Russ have been able to carry this team to a win in a playoff game against the Patriots. First, because Carroll would have never let him. Second, because we wouldn't bother to score or even try to score until we were down by at least a TD, then we would come back to score and try to sit on the lead until the Patriots came back and took the lead, beating us in doing so.

Russ would not have scored 13 anyway because he has not produced in the playoffs in some time. Only against the Lions (a team that has done nothing since that playoff appearance, in fact fired their coach. So essentially one of the weakest playoff opponents you could get - or more accurately a team that should not have been there and was only there at all because several better teams stumbled down the stretch.)

However, since Russ has not produced effectively in the playoffs besides that. There is no reason to believe that a defense that was able to shut down the Chiefs for one half (one of the best offenses in the league with a better QB) would somehow struggle with Russ. This is ESPECIALLY true given the reality that when the Cowboys were selling out against the run and daring Wilson to throw it - he still looked like a worse QB than Dak Prescott.

I repeat, against a defense that literally left the door open for Wilson to be effective, he still fell short. But he would somehow beat the Patriots? That is laughable.

Yes, he can beat the Patriots in the regular season, just like the Jaguars can beat the Patriots in the regular season. But his coach goes into a low risk, low reward mode in the playoffs and Wilson isn't consistent enough in the playoffs to score consistently in all 4 quarters unless he is playing the Lions (again, a team that wasn't really playoff caliber anyway).

Wilson can beat a wildcard team in the playoffs. He isn't consistent enough to carry a team to wins against division winners in the playoffs - certainly not with an average or even slightly above average defense. So there is no way he could even hope to beat a Super Bowl team in the playoffs. He wouldn't have scored 13, and his defense would have given up 20+ anyway.

What the hell is all of this?

You act like Russell Wilson is the only player on the team. :177692:

 

[TwistedHusky]

No, I am acting like he is the most important player on the team, as he is. Since we no longer have our all everything defense to shut the door on opposing offense, offset the multiple 3 and outs, and otherwise keep the game close so that Wilson can come roaring back in the 4th quarter...

And again, since the title is 'RUSS would have scored 13', the response is pretty much 'no he wouldn't'. Again, probably more to Carroll going low-risk, low-reward mode with Wilson in the playoffs but either way, Wilson is a really fun QB to watch in the regular season - just don't expect anything of him in the playoffs.

Also, as for being the only player on the team? When Russ gets his new contract (IF he even resigns!), then you will see a team that looks like Russ is the only player on the team. The good news is that he will get a whole new batch of excuses for why he cannot be expected to produce in the playoffs and most of them will be valid.

 

[Seymour]

No, I am acting like he is the most important player on the team, as he is. Since we no longer have our all everything defense to shut the door on opposing offense, offset the multiple 3 and outs, and otherwise keep the game close so that Wilson can come roaring back in the 4th quarter...

And again, since the title is 'RUSS would have scored 13', the response is pretty much 'no he wouldn't'. Again, probably more to Carroll going low-risk, low-reward mode with Wilson in the playoffs but either way, Wilson is a really fun QB to watch in the regular season - just don't expect anything of him in the playoffs.

Also, as for being the only player on the team? When Russ gets his new contract (IF he even resigns!), then you will see a team that looks like Russ is the only player on the team. The good news is that he will get a whole new batch of excuses for why he cannot be expected to produce in the playoffs and most of them will be valid.

Well that is a poor title too. Pete and Schotty have more say in that (or at least as much) then Wilson IMO.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Well on that we agree.

I have been very consistent in saying that one of the primary reasons that Wilson has not produced in the playoffs without his great defense is because his coaching staff rarely puts him in a position to succeed in the playoffs when he doesn't have that defense.

We gameplan the same way and we choose not leverage Wilson's strengths effectively even though it could/should be a difference-maker in turning a L to a W. We don't score much in the playoffs because our staff treats scoring as if it isn't necessary. Instead, we look to hold the ball, depend on the defense, and put ourselves in a position to take the lead late in the game.

Of course, this plan goes to hell if you are behind and your middling defense 'fails' by giving up another score putting you behind by more than one score. Or if there is a mistake, turnover, interception that results in short field that turns into a score. Or if the opposing playoff-caliber defense stops your attempt at a miracle comeback.

It seems more reasonable just to freaking score points in the 1st half but we really don't bother with that unless we get behind early.

A LOT of the problem is how we use Wilson. But since Carroll is old, he isn't going to change and so that is what we are going to get with Wilson and why Wilson would not have scored more than 13 anyway.

(Don't even get me started on Schotty and him being the literal legacy of underproducing in the playoffs. I never said this was all Wilson's fault but it would certainly be the result regardless.)

 

[John63]

No, I am acting like he is the most important player on the team, as he is. Since we no longer have our all everything defense to shut the door on opposing offense, offset the multiple 3 and outs, and otherwise keep the game close so that Wilson can come roaring back in the 4th quarter...

And again, since the title is 'RUSS would have scored 13', the response is pretty much 'no he wouldn't'. Again, probably more to Carroll going low-risk, low-reward mode with Wilson in the playoffs but either way, Wilson is a really fun QB to watch in the regular season - just don't expect anything of him in the playoffs.

Also, as for being the only player on the team? When Russ gets his new contract (IF he even resigns!), then you will see a team that looks like Russ is the only player on the team. The good news is that he will get a whole new batch of excuses for why he cannot be expected to produce in the playoffs and most of them will be valid.

Well that is a poor title too. Pete and Schotty have more say in that (or at least as much) then Wilson IMO.

I am confused why anyone is engaging with this conversation, the facts, and stats show Wilson has been good to great in the playoffs since 2015. So that makes those saying otherwise just plain wrong. Add to that he is having to do more with less for us to even have a chance.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

No, I am acting like he is the most important player on the team, as he is. Since we no longer have our all everything defense to shut the door on opposing offense, offset the multiple 3 and outs, and otherwise keep the game close so that Wilson can come roaring back in the 4th quarter...

And again, since the title is 'RUSS would have scored 13', the response is pretty much 'no he wouldn't'. Again, probably more to Carroll going low-risk, low-reward mode with Wilson in the playoffs but either way, Wilson is a really fun QB to watch in the regular season - just don't expect anything of him in the playoffs.

Also, as for being the only player on the team? When Russ gets his new contract (IF he even resigns!), then you will see a team that looks like Russ is the only player on the team. The good news is that he will get a whole new batch of excuses for why he cannot be expected to produce in the playoffs and most of them will be valid.

Well that is a poor title too. Pete and Schotty have more say in that (or at least as much) then Wilson IMO.

I am confused why anyone is engaging with this conversation, the facts, and stats show Wilson has been good to great in the playoffs since 2015.

The facts and stats don't reflect that at all. He was bad in 2015 - went 13-26 for 142 yards in the wild card game (albeit a tough subzero Minnesota contest) and threw two picks the week after, one returned for a touchdown.

In 2016, he was great for the Detroit game and then threw two picks against Atlanta for a 75 QBR. His accuracy in the Atlanta game was pretty off IIRC.

And I like how you tried to go "since 2015" which would have been cutting out a full half of his playoff career.

 

[Seymour]

So what have we learned then?

That Wilson is less than superb when we get to the playoffs against superior competition, and has been playing with one of the collective worst pass protection olines in recent NFL history his entire career, has a defensive coach that holds him and the entire offense back until it's do or die time.....yet he doesn't flourish??

Thanks for the hot tip. ukeface:

 

[TwistedHusky]

Well since 2015 is essentially when we stopped using Lynch, at least in the playoffs.

We also pretty much started to lose pieces of the defense then, didn't Kam hold out in 2015 for the start of the season?

When we had Lynch and our all everything defense intact, it was a lot easier to take risks and a lot easier for a 3 and out not to hurt us.

2015 is essentially when the playoffs started to depend more significantly on Wilson instead of just defense + run game with Wilson producing here and there along the way. Though it was probably 2017 when the defense just started throwing in the towel because they were sick of the offensive production. Either way, Wilson had a lot of cushion helping him out before 2015 both in his defense and run game. It was actually so significant that many people were calling him a guy that just rides the bus and depended on his defense/run game to win.

He proved he can win in the regular season without them (or in 2017 without even a run game) but never proved he could win in the playoffs without extraordinary defense and run game production. So it felt like a fair date to set the divide.

 

[John63]

No, I am acting like he is the most important player on the team, as he is. Since we no longer have our all everything defense to shut the door on opposing offense, offset the multiple 3 and outs, and otherwise keep the game close so that Wilson can come roaring back in the 4th quarter...

And again, since the title is 'RUSS would have scored 13', the response is pretty much 'no he wouldn't'. Again, probably more to Carroll going low-risk, low-reward mode with Wilson in the playoffs but either way, Wilson is a really fun QB to watch in the regular season - just don't expect anything of him in the playoffs.

Also, as for being the only player on the team? When Russ gets his new contract (IF he even resigns!), then you will see a team that looks like Russ is the only player on the team. The good news is that he will get a whole new batch of excuses for why he cannot be expected to produce in the playoffs and most of them will be valid.

Well that is a poor title too. Pete and Schotty have more say in that (or at least as much) then Wilson IMO.

I am confused why anyone is engaging with this conversation, the facts, and stats show Wilson has been good to great in the playoffs since 2015.

The facts and stats don't reflect that at all. He was bad in 2015 - went 13-26 for 142 yards in the wild card game (albeit a tough subzero Minnesota contest) and threw two picks the week after, one returned for a touchdown.

In 2016, he was great for the Detroit game and then threw two picks against Atlanta for a 75 QBR. His accuracy in the Atlanta game was pretty off IIRC.

And I like how you tried to go "since 2015" which would have been cutting out a full half of his playoff career.

I went since 2015 because that is what the original complainer was saying since the great defense went away. As I showed he has been good in the playoffs despite the lack of defense, run game and having to do most of it on his own.

 

[John63]

So what have we learned then?

That Wilson is less than superb when we get to the playoffs against superior competition, and has been playing with one of the collective worst pass protection olines in recent NFL history his entire career, has a defensive coach that holds him and the entire offense back until it's do or die time.....yet he doesn't flourish??

Thanks for the hot tip. ukeface:

LOL spot on

 

[MontanaHawk05]

As I showed he has been good in the playoffs despite the lack of defense, run game and having to do most of it on his own.

Except...he hasn't been. Which is what the stats show.

 

[AgentDib]

"Nonsense" or "Hot take" would imply that it wasn't supported by actual statistics

The nonsense bit is you claiming that all objective commentary supports your opinion. You're welcome to hold your opinion but "all the objective experts agree with me" is kindergarten debate logic.

It's not simply biblical truth, it's basic fact you can rewatch for yourself on NFL Gamepass. Even Youtube might help

Simply telling people that information source X agrees with your position is neither interesting nor persuasive. Imagine you are introducing evidence for a case. What you believe the film shows with specifics can be constructive, but simply arguing that film exists and supports your position is a waste of everybody's time.

 

[John63]

As I showed he has been good in the playoffs despite the lack of defense, run game and having to do most of it on his own.

Except...he hasn't been. Which is what the stats show.

Hmm lets see for his career in the playoffs he has

62% complt, 21 tds only 11 ints, 8.3 ypa, 95 qb rating plus another 3 tds rushing and a 4.8 ypa in 13 games


Seems good to me but lets compare

63% completion, 73 tds, 34 ints 7.0 ypa, 90 Qb rating, and 6 tds rushing and 3.4 ypa. in 40 games


Hmm seems like Russell is right up there with......Brady

enough said thanks for playing

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Don't bother sticking up for Russ, many have long since decided he sucks :roll:

 

[Seymour]

Don't bother sticking up for Russ, many have long since decided he sucks :roll:

Unless they are full of it and spewing garbage and need to be called out....then by all means set the record straight. :2thumbs:

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I never stick up for Russ, I need to start :lol:

 

[MontanaHawk05]

As I showed he has been good in the playoffs despite the lack of defense, run game and having to do most of it on his own.

Except...he hasn't been. Which is what the stats show.

Hmm lets see for his career in the playoffs he has

62% complt, 21 tds only 11 ints, 8.3 ypa, 95 qb rating plus another 3 tds rushing and a 4.8 ypa in 13 games


Seems good to me but lets compare

63% completion, 73 tds, 34 ints 7.0 ypa, 90 Qb rating, and 6 tds rushing and 3.4 ypa. in 40 games


Hmm seems like Russell is right up there with......Brady

enough said thanks for playing

We're going back to career stats now? I thought this was about post-2014.

If it's post-2014, at least three of those stats take a notable dive.

Also, Brady has been a more consistent performer over his entire career. Wilson's been far more boom-or-bust by comparison. Speaking in terms of just QBR, he's got three games out of 13 that fall at or below the standard deviation for his performances. Brady has six out of 40.

Wilson is the greatest QB of Seahawks history and an elite quarterback. He's not a lights-out postseason performer without a complete team. Both can be true.

 

[KiwiHawk]

It's not simply biblical truth, it's basic fact you can rewatch for yourself on NFL Gamepass. Even Youtube might help

We did have success passing the ball. To deny that is stubbornness. At minimum, we failed even more running the ball.

If we passed too much and didn't run the ball enough despite averaging 5 yards per carry, I'm pretty sure you and others would say "We should have run the ball more." Russell has played with a poor O-line for over half of his career and led the league in tight window throws the entire season. He won 9 games in 2017 with one of the WORST running games in recent NFL history Claiming that somehow we wouldn't have had success passing because of the Dallas front seven is laughable when you take all 125 games he's played in his entire career into account. If Belicheck was Russell's coach, there's zero chance they don't adjust. The Patriots couldn't get anything working for 3 quarters but were constantly willing to try something new. Again, this is basic

See? you talk about one thing related to Wilson - and this isn't even about his performance - and you get all these completely irrelevant stats that are supposed to make a point but have nothing to do with anything. Unless they are about that particular game in those particular circumstances, then it's irrelevant.

Wilson played with a poor O-line for over half of his career and led the league in tight window throws the entire season but not with 2 injured guards against Dallas' front 7 playing like they were during the wild card game.

He won 9 games in 2017 with one of the worst running games in NFL history - but not with 2 injured guards against Dallas' front 7 playing like they were during the wild card game.

In all the other 125 games, he didn't have 2 injured guards against Dallas' front 7 playing like they were during the wild card game.

This also is basic.

In my opinion and assessment, we were most successful passing against trend, which means we had to have trend to go against. This meant having those running plays everyone likes to crap all over. Yes, football is a game about athleticism and great individual performances, but it's also about strategy, and when Dallas knew we'd be passing, Wilson was getting almost instant pressure. Pressing that would only have lead to mistakes, turnovers, and injury. In my opinion.

Your opinion may vary. Maybe the 125 games mean more than the one in your opinion. I was watching the one.

 

[John63]

As I showed he has been good in the playoffs despite the lack of defense, run game and having to do most of it on his own.

Except...he hasn't been. Which is what the stats show.

Hmm lets see for his career in the playoffs he has

62% complt, 21 tds only 11 ints, 8.3 ypa, 95 qb rating plus another 3 tds rushing and a 4.8 ypa in 13 games


Seems good to me but lets compare

63% completion, 73 tds, 34 ints 7.0 ypa, 90 Qb rating, and 6 tds rushing and 3.4 ypa. in 40 games


Hmm seems like Russell is right up there with......Brady

enough said thanks for playing

We're going back to career stats now? I thought this was about post-2014.

If it's post-2014, at least three of those stats take a notable dive.

Also, Brady has been a more consistent performer over his entire career. Wilson's been far more boom-or-bust by comparison. Speaking in terms of just QBR, he's got three games out of 13 that fall at or below the standard deviation for his performances. Brady has six out of 40.

Wilson is the greatest QB of Seahawks history and an elite quarterback. He's not a lights-out postseason performer without a complete team. Both can be true.

Lets say you are right and both can be true, please find me a QB in the playoffs that has been "lights out" in the playoffs that did not have a very good to a great team? Let me help you, you cant.

oh and for 2015-2018 his number per game are

238 yards per game, 64% complete, 1.8tds, 1 int, 95 Qb rating those far form bad numbers.

and just so you know take out the cold bowl game at Minny his number is even better, and look at the last 3 playoff games they look even better.

All that aside his playoff number form 2015-2018 are far from bad, lets look at another during that time from 2015-2018

347 yards per game, 63% complt, 1.8tds, .8 ints, 92qb rating yes thats Brady Hmmm