Is it time to move on From Pete?

[Mad Dog]

Also, the comparison of Coughlin to Pete is funny.

They are literally polar opposites. Not just because he beat the Patriots and Pete didn't.

On almost every level. Coughlin is as close to the anti-Pete as I can think of. They both liked Defense so they share that.

It was not about the characteristics of either man but the view of the fan base that was similar. Same things said about Couglhlin in New York are being said about Pete in Seattle. And I very much can see the same crappy outcome if Pete is bum rushed out the door.

 

[TwistedHusky]

The longer we keep Pete, the less time we have to figure out if Wilson is worth going all in on.

Pete seems to have no value as a coach anymore.

Coughlin was starting to stumble all over the place. Are you implying you think that Coughlin would have produced if the Giants kept him? Did you watch those last years of Giants games?

Coughlin is helping the Jaguars succeed by advising them. But he would be a trainwreck if they brought him in as the coach.

So I am not sure what point you are making on Pete vs Coughlin.

I loved Coughlin as a coach. I admired his work at Boston College and noticed how did more with less (instead of Pete doing less with more), beating teams from bigger schools with deeper talent regularly. Then he made the Jags a playoff contender in essentially their first go round. And we all know what he did with the Giants.

But he was all over the place at the end and the Giants were not going to get better. He is fantastic as a football executive. If Pete wants that role, by all means - just don't let him call plays or influence the offense.

We will know what the Seahawks look like at the end of year but that buzzsaw at the end of the schedule says the easy games are right now and they are putting together some of the worst football we have seen as Seahawk fans (at least on the offensive end). It isn't just bad. It is terrible.

If the games look like that near end of year, he has to go. If we even have a QB that hasn't been killed by sack overdose by then.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

There talent evaluation on offense is there biggest flaw and Penny hasn't looked great at any time yet. Pete and John have systematically destroyed a great roster and replaced it with lesser talent. If they can't find star plyers in the draft then nothing else this franchise does will matter. This is a game decided by star players and we don't have any.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

The longer we keep Pete, the less time we have to figure out if Wilson is worth going all in on.

Pete seems to have no value as a coach anymore.

Coughlin was starting to stumble all over the place. Are you implying you think that Coughlin would have produced if the Giants kept him? Did you watch those last years of Giants games?

Coughlin is helping the Jaguars succeed by advising them. But he would be a trainwreck if they brought him in as the coach.

So I am not sure what point you are making on Pete vs Coughlin.

I loved Coughlin as a coach. I admired his work at Boston College and noticed how did more with less (instead of Pete doing less with more), beating teams from bigger schools with deeper talent regularly. Then he made the Jags a playoff contender in essentially their first go round. And we all know what he did with the Giants.

But he was all over the place at the end and the Giants were not going to get better. He is fantastic as a football executive. If Pete wants that role, by all means - just don't let him call plays or influence the offense.

We will know what the Seahawks look like at the end of year but that buzzsaw at the end of the schedule says the easy games are right now and they are putting together some of the worst football we have seen as Seahawk fans (at least on the offensive end). It isn't just bad. It is terrible.

If the games look like that near end of year, he has to go. If we even have a QB that hasn't been killed by sack overdose by then.

Pete the exec would be interesting to see but I think his ego would not allow him to not interfere with whoever the coach is of that team and constantly be looming over them like a shadow.

 

[IrishNW]

the real power struggle might be between john and pete

I haven't heard, or seen anything yet to come to that conclusion. It will definitely be something to monitor if the team continues to lose. The wheels will have really come off at that point.

Its just my intuition, I know Schneider loves Wilson. I'm not sure Pete does, he loves physical freaks. Maybe thats why he's never let the training wheels off?

 

[chris98251]

the real power struggle might be between john and pete

I haven't heard, or seen anything yet to come to that conclusion. It will definitely be something to monitor if the team continues to lose. The wheels will have really come off at that point.

Its just my intuition, I know Schneider loves Wilson. I'm not sure Pete does, he loves physical freaks. Maybe thats why he's never let the training wheels off?

If I recall John wanted Wilson in the 2nd and Pete held him back till the third, so yeah he was Johns guy.

 

[Jac]

Over the next decade, we need to consistently put more points on the board than McVay and Shanahan. It's not enough to play great defense and keep points off the board (because they can hire great DCs and do the same). I just don't think the current formula--albeit being responsible for the best of times--will work any more. Particularly if you get desperate and sabotage your own formula...

 

[chris98251]

Over the next decade, we need to consistently put more points on the board than McVay and Shanahan. It's not enough to play great defense and keep points off the board (because they can hire great DCs and do the same). I just don't think the current formula--albeit being responsible for the best of times--will work any more. Particularly if you get desperate and sabotage your own formula...

Formula works fine when your not doing three and outs and take time off the clock and can score with that time of possession. Last couple of years too many three and outs and defense on the field too much, no return on when we do hold the ball unless it was a field goal and stalling in red zone being shut out of touchdowns, that's what has been the issue.

 

[Fade]

the real power struggle might be between john and pete

I haven't heard, or seen anything yet to come to that conclusion. It will definitely be something to monitor if the team continues to lose. The wheels will have really come off at that point.

Its just my intuition, I know Schneider loves Wilson. I'm not sure Pete does, he loves physical freaks. Maybe thats why he's never let the training wheels off?

Yes, JS loves Wilson and coveted him greatly. Pete also loves Wilson, he just loves his "philosophy". The training wheels you're referring to, isn't training wheels, just a super outdated simple scheme that the league moved on from a long time ago. If Pete didn't love Wilson he would not have extended Wilson.

Schneider & Pete are too slick when it comes to handling the media, so it will be very difficult to to gauge how their relationship is holding up, but all it will take is one finger pointing moment and everyone will know.

Pete has been slippin' lately so we'll see.

 

[mrt144]

the real power struggle might be between john and pete

I haven't heard, or seen anything yet to come to that conclusion. It will definitely be something to monitor if the team continues to lose. The wheels will have really come off at that point.

Its just my intuition, I know Schneider loves Wilson. I'm not sure Pete does, he loves physical freaks. Maybe thats why he's never let the training wheels off?

Yes, JS loves Wilson and coveted him greatly. Pete also loves Wilson, he just loves his "philosophy". The training wheels you're referring to, isn't training wheels, just a super outdated simple scheme that the league moved on from a long time ago. If Pete didn't love Wilson he would not have extended Wilson.

Schneider & Pete are too slick when it comes to handling the media, so it will be very difficult to to gauge how their relationship is holding up, but all it will take is one finger pointing moment and everyone will know.

Pete has been slippin' lately so we'll see.

Would it be absurd to think that Pete loves things about Wilson that are not wholly related to football but more related to attitude and approach?

 

[Mad Dog]

Underproduced with one of the best defenses? He got to two superbowls. How many SB's did the Mid 80's Bears get to? The early 2000's Bucaneers?

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Expectations of multiple Superbowls in the current NFL parity at all costs system are pretty ridiculous. There is exactly one franchise that can boast that sort of consistency. That's a high bar.

Pete got us to the playoffs 6 straight seasons. No one else in the NFC has done that this decade.

Pete deserves to coach here until he wishes to retire and I'm certainly afraid that his leaving will throw us into another 10 year abyss of bad Seahawk football. Everyone wanted Holmgren gone and Knox gone and their successors were worse. You don't can good coaches. You let them rebuild. Everyone needs to rebuild every 6 years or so. Peak performance of players only lasts a few years.

I know it is feels good to be a contrarian but the offense has gotten progressively worse and the arrow is pointing right at PC now. Probably why he held onto Bevelle so long, he knew Bevelle wasn't the whole problem.

There is nothing wrong with having high expectations. No corporation or business owner says "well everyone has a couple years of losing money (once established)". No, they say this is unacceptable and try to fix the problem. The past 2 games has been some of the worst offensive play calling I have ever seen. I don't want Pete gone but I want him to keep his damn hands off the offense. At least during game time.

So what makes you think Pete isn’t trying to fix the problem? He fired 3 coaches. He jettisoned some aging players to get younger on D. He worked on improving the run game that was non-existent last year. I don’t see much evidence of lack of trying. So far things aren’t working out. But it’s not for lack of effort if you ask me. Were we all expecting this turnaround to come off without a hitch?

Yes you can set the bar at the Patriots. But if you don’t achieve Patriots is that a failure? Your comparison to business is flawed. It’s more like the second rank Fortune 500 company complaining that despite record profits they are still number 2 and everyone should be fired.

 

[zetes]

No. But it would be nice for him to scheme more for the other teams instead of the idea of "we do what we do so try to beat us". It worked great when we had one of the best defenses of all time but when you are rebuilding it is not the same.

Z.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Pete likes to keep things simple so that great athletes can make plays.

We don't generally do complex things on offense or defense.

He wants them to play on instinct and react, using their amazing gifts to out-athlete the competition.

He does have an amazing mind for strategy (strategy, not tactics, he sucks at tactics) and can put systems in place that maximize the value of his players' strengths in working together.

The problem with simplifying offense should be pretty evident though.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Pete likes to keep things simple so that great athletes can make plays.

We don't generally do complex things on offense or defense.

He wants them to play on instinct and react, using their amazing gifts to out-athlete the competition.

He does have an amazing mind for strategy (strategy, not tactics, he sucks at tactics) and can put systems in place that maximize the value of his players' strengths in working together.

The problem with simplifying offense should be pretty evident though.

This is a great philosophy when your players are bigger, faster and stronger than your opponents........which is what we did for a solid 4-5 years, intimidated and pushed the other team around pounding them into submission, on both sides of the ball.

But that simplified philosophy doesn't work very well when you don't have the athletes anymore.

 

[Fade]

Over the next decade, we need to consistently put more points on the board than McVay and Shanahan. It's not enough to play great defense and keep points off the board (because they can hire great DCs and do the same). I just don't think the current formula--albeit being responsible for the best of times--will work any more. Particularly if you get desperate and sabotage your own formula...

Formula works fine when your not doing three and outs and take time off the clock and can score with that time of possession. Last couple of years too many three and outs and defense on the field too much, no return on when we do hold the ball unless it was a field goal and stalling in red zone being shut out of touchdowns, that's what has been the issue.

It's a boom or bust type of offense, 3 and outs will always be a problem.

It's a scheme league, talent is negligible (parity). Pete had a unique run of talent acquisition (2010-2012) that will never be duplicated by him ever again. So he bucked the trend there for a while, but it isn't working anymore, and hasn't for a long time.

Jac is 100% correct of what needs to happen. The biggest upgrade to the Seahawks would be a talented offensive mind massively improving the Seahawks very antiquated, stale, easy to defend offense.

You have to be able to score more points in a division with McVay & Shanahan. 2 of the 5 best offensive minds in the game. They might even be top 2. They are that good.

 

[mrt144]

Pete likes to keep things simple so that great athletes can make plays.

We don't generally do complex things on offense or defense.

He wants them to play on instinct and react, using their amazing gifts to out-athlete the competition.

He does have an amazing mind for strategy (strategy, not tactics, he sucks at tactics) and can put systems in place that maximize the value of his players' strengths in working together.

The problem with simplifying offense should be pretty evident though.

This is a great philosophy when your players are bigger, faster and stronger than your opponents........which is what we did for a solid 4-5 years, intimidated and pushed the other team around pounding them into submission, on both sides of the ball.

But that simplified philosophy doesn't work very well when you don't have the athletes anymore.

And in theory, a simplified tactical approach should lessen the learning curve of what you need to do so that you can let that athleticism shine and get players to the level you want them faster, but...

This is an adversarial game. You can stack the deck in your favor but you still need to play the hand right. Stacking the deck in your favor is a method and even a skill if you can do it over and over and not get caught but so is playing every hand you get as best you can to the point it seems like you're stacking the deck.

I really just want to tell poker stories, can you tell?

 

[mrt144]

Over the next decade, we need to consistently put more points on the board than McVay and Shanahan. It's not enough to play great defense and keep points off the board (because they can hire great DCs and do the same). I just don't think the current formula--albeit being responsible for the best of times--will work any more. Particularly if you get desperate and sabotage your own formula...

Formula works fine when your not doing three and outs and take time off the clock and can score with that time of possession. Last couple of years too many three and outs and defense on the field too much, no return on when we do hold the ball unless it was a field goal and stalling in red zone being shut out of touchdowns, that's what has been the issue.

It's a boom or bust type of offense, 3 and outs will always be a problem.

It's a scheme league, talent is negligible (parity). Pete had a unique run of talent acquisition (2010-2012) that will never be duplicated by him ever again. So he bucked the trend there for a while, but it isn't working anymore, and hasn't for a long time.

Jac is 100% correct of what needs to happen. The biggest upgrade to the Seahawks would be a talented offensive mind massively improving the Seahawks very antiquated, stale, easy to defend offense.

You have to be able to score more points in a division with McVay & Shanahan. 2 of the 5 best offensive minds in the game. They might even be top 2. They are that good.

I would say that in the long run talent is negligible as it changes, is injured, is whisked away for more money, gets into ATV accidents, etc etc. In the short term, as the 2012-2015 Hawks showed, talent isn't negligible, its the juice that makes the machine run smoother.

Imagine for a moment if you will two completely overlapping circles spinning in opposite directions with a pin hole in the exact same spot at the start. One circle is talent. Another circle is scheme. Eventually those pinholes will overlap but the question is how fast each circle is spinning so that the overlap in pinholes allows a beam of light to go through. To me, it seems like for that brief period of time the talent pinhole was aligned almost perfectly with the scheme pinhole. Or somehow the talent hole got really large so that a lot of light shone through it even thought the scheme hole was tiny and not perfectly aligned with the talent hole.

And then as the talent circle spun some more and more the scheme didn't move much if at all. So now we're at the point where the talent pinhole is somehow tiny and seemingly diametrically opposed to the scheme hole.

This all makes more sense if you did a science fair project on light particles.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Over the next decade, we need to consistently put more points on the board than McVay and Shanahan. It's not enough to play great defense and keep points off the board (because they can hire great DCs and do the same). I just don't think the current formula--albeit being responsible for the best of times--will work any more. Particularly if you get desperate and sabotage your own formula...

Formula works fine when your not doing three and outs and take time off the clock and can score with that time of possession. Last couple of years too many three and outs and defense on the field too much, no return on when we do hold the ball unless it was a field goal and stalling in red zone being shut out of touchdowns, that's what has been the issue.

The talent has changed but the approach hasn't. Pete Carroll is the type of coach that will continue to do the same thing, even as the circumstances change around him. Even when in the Seahawks heyday of 2012-2014 the offense was a largely a question mark that was carried by two remarkable talents.

 

[toffee]

No, it’s not time to move on from Pete:

1. There aren’t any successor ready to take over internally.
2. There aren’t any must have candidates externally.
3. Our past three seasons left a bit to desire, but owners of 3/4 of the league will take that record and declared success.
4. This season so far is bad, but only on the offense side of the ball. We lost two games, both very very winnable. Our defense over achieved over the period.

I was one of the silly boys that asked for Bill Walsh’s head, other silly boys asked for Harbaugh’s too. I ain’t asking again. Sorry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nwHawk]

Holy smokes. People will always make it what they want. Pete should stay. The season is still young. If Pete is not TELLING you what you want to hear, then don't listen to him. But tell me you aren't impressed with the defense so far considering all of the changes and injuries. Pete's a defensive guy - always has been always will be.

The offense, that's a different story. Russ should own that ship by now. Blaming Pete is wrong.