Enthusiasm…dissipation

[DarkVictory23]

Case in point for the type of discussion I've lost interest in having is exemplified by toffee's thread about not echoing media talking points regarding our QB situation. I'm not sure exactly what kind of discussion certain folks expect out of 'LOL Geno sucks' 'we'll never score with Geno' or the strawmen arguments that get repeated ad nauseum. I know there are a couple of guys who entertain these things, but it's become so clear that a number of these folks are not arguing in good faith, I just can't be bothered anymore.

Personally, I liked Russ but I don’t necessarily disagree with your statements.

I’m excited about the future.

Best case scenario imo (as you stated) is we are competitive, Denver craps the bed, our rookies develop, and we snatch our QB next year. I do lack faith in Geno and/or Lock but, we can make progress no matter the case.

Personally, I liked Russ too!

I'm not even a big Pete Carroll fan (I thought it was shady how he left USC at the time he did and Hasselbeck was and remains my all-time favorite Seahawk so Pete not bringing Matt back pissed me off even if it turned out to be the right decision in retrospect). I just knew the situation with Russ was becoming untenable.

What Russ wanted (and seems to be getting in Denver)--to be treated like a borderline assistant coach--is something that should never be countenanced here in Seattle. Without that, Russ wasn't going to be happy with ANY coach, even if we replaced Carroll.

In other words, we really did keep the right person of the two (regardless of who you think is/was more important to our success) and we got the max return we could possibly get for Russ at the time we did.

Now everybody is freaking out because we didn't get this or that mediocre QB to replace Geno who looked thoroughly capable in his limited outings last season and this preseason.

I'm not a Geno Smith fan. I didn't follow him in college or while he was in New York. I have no firm opinions outside of what I've seen from him as a Seahawk which has been... fine? Even good at times?

I just can't find justification to think this team has immediately become a candidate for going 0-17 just because of our QB situation which is literally the only thing people bring up when they discuss our fate. Like, for all the hand wringing about Russ and Geno, the thing I personally found legitimately the most concerning about this offseason is that we didn't get a new kicker.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

I just have this overriding feeling this team is building a nucleus to put us back on track to be perennial playoff contenders again. I am over the moon about this past draft, and some of the players from the past two drafts as well. Sure, it's easy to get stuck on not having a franchise QB and all the potential ineptitude that can come from that (The win column will suffer) but I personally feel extremely positive that JS/PC are rebuilding (yep I said it) the right way. Hungry up-and-comers, potential pro bowl if not elite players in spots, the OL looks to potentially be the best unit in a DECADE or more...

For me, the plan all along was to ride with Smith and/or Lock, do what you can do, see where the chips fall, and with all that intense draft equity next April, slide up to whatever position you need to and snag the kid you think has the best chance to be our next franchise quarterback.

No guarantees of course as we all know, but it's exciting to think lightning just might strike twice.

With the additions of Cross, Lucas, and Walker III, I am interested to see how well the Seahawks can run the ball. A good running game is a quarterback’s best friend.

 

[Rock_the_Hawk]

I really think the folks who were geeked, myself included, were geeked for the coming years moreso than 2022.

I'm known as Geno's biggest defender, and even I have the post history to back up my assertion that he absolutely is not long-term starter material.

Who defines Geno? I do not know what is going to happen with Geno Smith. He might come in and light it up this is possible! he might come in and tank it completely, I don't know.

I rewatched all of last season's games and what I saw was Geno getting better every game. If I was Geno, I wouldn't be listening to anyone, and I would live on the mantra NEVER LET ANYONE DEFINE YOUR SUCCESS. This is Geno's chance to be a successful starting QB in the NFL and only Geno will define that. I wish him the very best! He has the talent around him to make this happen he has the coaching staff and the scheme. there is NO reason why Geno cannot make this happen. Go BABY!!

 

[Palmegranite]

Personally, I liked Russ....

What Russ wanted (and seems to be getting in Denver)--to be treated like a borderline assistant coach--is something that should never be countenanced here in Seattle.

This is where we disagree. Hear me out.
There are certain players in various pro sports that have transcended the position, and learned everything a coach could ever teach them. Generational talents. Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky, Guy Lafleur among others, and I would include Russell Wilson in that group.
The smart coaches, realizing there's literally nothing they can teach these players that would make them any better, enable the player's strengths; build the team around them, hand them the keys and say, "go win us some championships" Glen Sather did that and was rewarded with an NHL dynasty. So did the other coaches to some degree.
Pete Carroll had this blind spot. Some would say ego got in the way. Beating up the opposition in 3 quarters morphed into this idiotic "keep the score low and give the other guys a fighting chance"...until the 4th quarter...What? Why's that?

Pete Carroll singlehandedly screwed Seattle out of multiple Superbowls, the dynasty that never happened

So let's all get excited for a season of some"Pete-ball"!
Yeah, dissipated is the right word.

 

[GemCity]

I’m going to enjoy this year. Going to be stoked if we grab Levis or Richardson next year. Watch these rookies grow.
But, there’s no amount of hoorah that is going to make me think that Geno is even remotely serviceable.
Lock was being looked at admirably when we got him and that bs has pretty much left the building.

We know what this year is about..at least we should. If we snag a few wins along the way, great!

 

[OrangeGravy]

This is where we disagree. Hear me out.
There are certain players in various pro sports that have transcended the position, and learned everything a coach could ever teach them. Generational talents. Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky, Guy Lafleur among others, and I would include Russell Wilson in that group.
The smart coaches, realizing there's literally nothing they can teach these players that would make them any better, enable the player's strengths; build the team around them, hand them the keys and say, "go win us some championships" Glen Sather did that and was rewarded with an NHL dynasty. So did the other coaches to some degree.
Pete Carroll had this blind spot. Some would say ego got in the way. Beating up the opposition in 3 quarters morphed into this idiotic "keep the score low and give the other guys a fighting chance"...until the 4th quarter...What? Why's that?

Pete Carroll singlehandedly screwed Seattle out of multiple Superbowls, the dynasty that never happened

So let's all get excited for a season of some"Pete-ball"!
Yeah, dissipated is the right word.

Now Russell is so good he transcends coaching? Good God

 

[DarkVictory23]

This is where we disagree. Hear me out.
There are certain players in various pro sports that have transcended the position, and learned everything a coach could ever teach them. Generational talents. Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky, Guy Lafleur among others, and I would include Russell Wilson in that group.
The smart coaches, realizing there's literally nothing they can teach these players that would make them any better, enable the player's strengths; build the team around them, hand them the keys and say, "go win us some championships" Glen Sather did that and was rewarded with an NHL dynasty. So did the other coaches to some degree.
Pete Carroll had this blind spot. Some would say ego got in the way. Beating up the opposition in 3 quarters morphed into this idiotic "keep the score low and give the other guys a fighting chance"...until the 4th quarter...What? Why's that?

Pete Carroll singlehandedly screwed Seattle out of multiple Superbowls, the dynasty that never happened

So let's all get excited for a season of some"Pete-ball"!
Yeah, dissipated is the right word.

Yeah, sorry, Russ is not close to that group.

Being the best ever Seahawks QB? Yes, but a 'generational talent'? No. Russ has never, at any point, been the single best QB in the league for a full season, let alone a 'generation'.

Further, Russ has glaringly, blindingly obviousholes in his game. His physical talents allow him to overcome those but he's never proven to be beyond coaching.

And this idea that Pete purposefully tries to keep the other team in the game is a meme that needs to die. Pete has a very cautious philosophy about not turning the ball over but it's got nothing to do with keeping the other team in the game and everything to do with keeping us in it.

That philosophy is not what cost us a dynasty. It was Pete overly turning the keys over to Russ, who was not, at any point, the key piece to our Super Bowl runs. We won the Super Bowl and got to a second PLAYING "Pete-Ball". The degree to which Wilson's contributions for that success has inflated in the years since is mind-boggling.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Russ is absolutely in that group. Not sure how you can dispute it.
The key characteristic of a 'champion' is you get better under pressure. A champion hyper focuses under the greatest pressure, performing even above their normal output.
Another key characteristic is the ability to carry a team when needed, which Wilson has done repeatedly.

Russ is in that group already mentioned because he gets better under pressure. THAT is the primary attribute all those players share. And because of that attribute, they tend to carry their teams and produce under pressure. It really isn't Wilson's fault that his HC could not figure out how to leverage Wilson to win more.

The problem with Russ is that he does all of the amazing, almost impossible both well and consistently.
But he struggles with some of the aspects of the position that are generally considered basic skills for the position. The thing is, the job of the QB is not to do those things. It is to put the ball in the EZ and do so against a defense doing everything to stop you. It isn't to read the defense, sit in the pocket, etc. Those are things that most QBs need to do in order to do the thing we want the QB to do - score TDs and march down the field against a defense trying to stop him.
Russ does not do a great job of reading the defense pre-snap. But he does an incredible job of reading the defense post-snap and putting the ball where it needs to be depending on how the corner is playing.

Wilson is not going to change. Not after 10+ years of playing a certain way. The idea that he NEEDS to change is stupid though. QBs that cannot do those things Russ does need to be good at the basics. But you can win with holes in your game if you consistently do the exceptional. If you have a coach that can mitigate those holes and leverage your strengths. THAT USED TO BE WHAT PETE DID.

I think we will find out that a better offensive coach can figure out a way to use a QB that can do what Wilson does. Specifically his ability to throw on the run and read the secondary post-snap. Guys that produce under pressure and carry their teams despite the focus of the opposing team? Those are worth betting on.

Pete might not even have a job now if it weren't for Wilson. After the LOB left, Pete would have likely basically been a .500 coach. Would that have been good enough to have kept him here for the past 5 years? I doubt it. You will see what Pete looks like without Wilson soon enough. I don't need to convince you, just watch the scoreboards this year.

 

[DarkVictory23]

Russ is absolutely in that group. Not sure how you can dispute it.
The key characteristic of a 'champion' is you get better under pressure. A champion hyper focuses under the greatest pressure, performing even above their normal output.
Another key characteristic is the ability to carry a team when needed, which Wilson has done repeatedly.

Russ is in that group already mentioned because he gets better under pressure. THAT is the primary attribute all those players share. And because of that attribute, they tend to carry their teams and produce under pressure. It really isn't Wilson's fault that his HC could not figure out how to leverage Wilson to win more.

The problem with Russ is that he does all of the amazing, almost impossible both well and consistently.
But he struggles with some of the aspects of the position that are generally considered basic skills for the position. The thing is, the job of the QB is not to do those things. It is to put the ball in the EZ and do so against a defense doing everything to stop you. It isn't to read the defense, sit in the pocket, etc. Those are things that most QBs need to do in order to do the thing we want the QB to do - score TDs and march down the field against a defense trying to stop him.
Russ does not do a great job of reading the defense pre-snap. But he does an incredible job of reading the defense post-snap and putting the ball where it needs to be depending on how the corner is playing.

Wilson is not going to change. Not after 10+ years of playing a certain way. The idea that he NEEDS to change is stupid though. QBs that cannot do those things Russ does need to be good at the basics. But you can win with holes in your game if you consistently do the exceptional. If you have a coach that can mitigate those holes and leverage your strengths. THAT USED TO BE WHAT PETE DID.

I think we will find out that a better offensive coach can figure out a way to use a QB that can do what Wilson does. Specifically his ability to throw on the run and read the secondary post-snap. Guys that produce under pressure and carry their teams despite the focus of the opposing team? Those are worth betting on.

Pete might not even have a job now if it weren't for Wilson. After the LOB left, Pete would have likely basically been a .500 coach. Would that have been good enough to have kept him here for the past 5 years? I doubt it. You will see what Pete looks like without Wilson soon enough. I don't need to convince you, just watch the scoreboards this year.

I'm sorry, what? You are "not sure" how I can dispute that Russell Wilson isn't in the same group as Michael freakin' Jordan?

I have seen some amazingly outlandish takes regarding Russ and the Seahawks, but Russell Wilson is comparable to Michael Jordan? I don't even know if I find this take more bonkers as a Seahawks fan or a lifelong Chicago Bulls fan.

For one, getting 'better under pressure' is nowhere close to being enough of a case to be a generational talent. Michael Jordan isn't considered the best of all-time because he got better under pressure. He's the best of all-time because he was GREAT the whole damn game long.

Michael Jordan did some things better than everybody else, yes, but you know what 'basic skills of the position' Michael Jordan struggled with? None. The idea that you can 'struggle' with what are considered 'basic skills of the position' and still be a 'generational talent' is absolutely bonkers.

Again, Russ has not been the best quarterback in the NFL for a single solitary season. Not one time. Michael Jordan was the best shooting guard (and the best overall player in the NBA) for a decade. Tiger Woods was the best golfer in the WORLD for a decade. Russ wasn't even the best player on our team when he actually won a championship.

 

[m0ng0]

Whoah!!! This thread took a hard right turn...

 

[Titus Pullo]

Russell is at the level of Brett Farve, Kurt Warner, and Patrick Mahomes.....One Superbowl win and one loss.

There are several Superbowl QBs with 2 wins and several with 3 wins.

To consider Russ the goat at the level of MJ or Tiger is silly when he wasn't even as good as Troy Aikman or Jim Plunkett.

 

[Palmegranite]

Did Michael Jordon ever play for a controlling, defensive-minded coach whose philosophy was the antithesis of MJs strengths and talent? Nope.
This is the point I've presented.

Patrick Mahomes is mentioned often, and the Chief's coaching staff play to his strengths, and he will continue to thrive in this environment for many years. Again, when contrasted with PC, where you get a frustrated QB, constrained by said philosopy.

We've all seen the shoot-outs happen on those increasingly rare occasions; RW vs Deshaun Watson, RW vs Patrick Mahomes.
Russell Wilson outdueled both of them.

 

[m0ng0]

In addition to all of Jordan's offensive accolades he was a 9 time all defensive first team player and Defensive player of the year in 88. And that's with 4 different coaches.

 

[BASF]

Did Michael Jordon ever play for a controlling, defensive-minded coach whose philosophy was the antithesis of MJs strengths and talent? Nope.
This is the point I've presented.

Patrick Mahomes is mentioned often, and the Chief's coaching staff play to his strengths, and he will continue to thrive in this environment for many years. Again, when contrasted with PC, where you get a frustrated QB, constrained by said philosopy.

We've all seen the shoot-outs happen on those increasingly rare occasions; RW vs Deshaun Watson, RW vs Patrick Mahomes.
Russell Wilson outdueled both of them.

He thrives on the duels and the fourth quarter heroics due to his ego. It is why he seems to dog it early in games and suddenly turns it on when he can feed his hero persona.

How can you ignore that Wilson has played the same style of football since NC State? How can you ignore that he took the same style of football to Wisconsin? How can you ignore that he played the same style for the Seahawks? How can you ignore that he played the same style of football with every offensive coordinator that the Seahawks brought in? Tom O'Brien is not Pete Carroll. Bret Bielema is not Pete Carroll. However, Wilson played the same for each coach.

I don't hate Wilson. I actually think he is a good person and not nearly as fake as he likes to present himself:

But, if you can not see that his ego is gigantic, I don't know what to tell you.


If you can't see that he has played the same style of football everywhere he has played:


I don't know what to tell you.

I think that you are absolutely correct that he transcends coaching in his mind, because he has never really developed beyond who he was sixteen years ago. The comparisons to the GOATS in other sports is comical since Wilson has never once been the best quarterback in any season since college.

 

[flv2]

Russell is at the level of Brett Farve, Kurt Warner, and Patrick Mahomes.....One Superbowl win and one loss.

There are several Superbowl QBs with 2 wins and several with 3 wins.

To consider Russ the goat at the level of MJ or Tiger is silly when he wasn't even as good as Troy Aikman or Jim Plunkett.

Is/was Wilson as good as Joe Flacco?

 

[Palmegranite]

He thrives on the duels and the fourth quarter heroics due to his ego. It is why he seems to dog it early in games and suddenly turns it on when he can feed his hero persona.

How can you ignore that Wilson has played the same style of football since NC State? How can you ignore that he took the same style of football to Wisconsin? How can you ignore that he played the same style for the Seahawks? How can you ignore that he played the same style of football with every offensive coordinator that the Seahawks brought in? Tom Osborne is not Pete Carroll. Bret Bielema is not Pete Carroll. However, Wilson played the same for each coach.

I don't hate Wilson. I actually think he is a good person and not nearly as fake as he likes to present himself:

But, if you can not see that his ego is gigantic, I don't know what to tell you.


If you can't see that he has played the same style of football everywhere he has played:


I don't know what to tell you.

I think that you are absolutely correct that he transcends coaching in his mind, because he has never really developed beyond who he was sixteen years ago. The comparisons to the GOATS in other sports is comical since Wilson has never once been the best quarterback in any season since college.

More great work from the psychiatry department at the "University of BASF"

 

[Titus Pullo]

Is/was Wilson as good as Joe Flacco?

Flacco appeared in 1 Superbowl.

 

[hawkfan68]

Flacco appeared in 1 Superbowl.

Flacco has not led his team to the playoffs since 2014. It's safe to say RW is better.

 

[toffee]

What Russ wanted (and seems to be getting in Denver)--to be treated like a borderline assistant coach--is something that should never be countenanced here in Seattle. Without that, Russ wasn't going to be happy with ANY coach, even if we replaced Carroll.

Russ was our shadow HC, he owned Carroll, when Carroll and Schotty pushed back ... remember Russ stormed out of the room?

I'm not a Geno Smith fan. I didn't follow him in college or while he was in New York. I have no firm opinions outside of what I've seen from him as a Seahawk which has been... fine? Even good at times?

Neither am I, he was Geno WHO to me until the last few week after I read up on his recent game logs. All I want is for 12s on dot net give the guy a chance, Geno played better in the past 6.5 games than he ever did.

I just can't find justification to think this team has immediately become a candidate for going 0-17 just because of our QB situation which is literally the only thing people bring up when they discuss our fate. Like, for all the hand wringing about Russ and Geno, the thing I personally found legitimately the most concerning about this offseason is that we didn't get a new kicker.

0-17 is still possible, if our defense regress from last year, and Geno reverted back to the old Geno the turnover machine Smith.

 

[toffee]

Is/was Wilson as good as Joe Flacco?

Wilson is WAY better, not even close. A more intriguing question would be: Could Joe Flacco led '13 and '14 Hawks to Super Bowl? umm. They both own one ring, Flacco was superbowl MVP which to Russ, is to dead for. Flacco is taller, more nimble (based on their 3 cones, Russ 6.97 sec, Flacco 6.82 sec), but Flacco didn't know how or could run circles.