Elephant in the Room

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hawks85

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Geno is not the only problem

He is part of the problem. A big part.

Geno is mediocre. There is a reason he took a discount to stay.
This is the way I'm looking at this. The Hawks offense basically sat the ENTIRE second half and the Hawks Defense was on the field the ENTIRE second half. Defense could have played better, but the real issue is Smith. Both Cross and Lucas were out, so what, what happened to next man up. I've said this last year and I'm saying it again, I'm not even close to being sold on Smith. There was ZERO to little tape on Smith prior to last year, so Smith came in here and lit it up. Now there's updated tape on Smith and teams can focus on how to adjust and stop, slow his ass down and it worked yesterday.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Well, it's a little hard to lighten up on the Monday following a beetch slapping on opening day on our home field at the hands of a supposedly inferior team after you've been told for the past 6 months how great we're going to be. If I'm cranky, it means that I care.

But to your point about Bobby's tackles. The implication that I took from your statement was that because of his 19 tackles it meant that he played an acceptable game as you mentioned him in the same breath that you said 'not everyone sucked.'
Fair enough, I'm still grumpy AF 2 days later. Usually just takes me a day. Well, that to go along with the absolute collapse of the M's.
 

RiverDog

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He was fine last season with the Rams. So this leads me to believe that what the Seahawks are asking him to do is probably not aligned with his current skillset. Maybe they are asking too much of him. I think they should let Brooks and Bush play coverage. Let Bobby stop the run and disguise blitz or pass rush. He did a great job of blowing up runs (TFL) in the first half. Brooks and Bush are younger, faster than Bobby. Seahawks coaches need to do a better job of utilizing their players' strengths. They need to stop pushing a square peg into a round hole.
If he was fine with the Rams, they would have brought him back instead of letting him walk. They went from 12-5 and winning the Lombardi without him to 5-12 and a historic collapse with him, and now that they're without him again, they limit us to 12 total yards and one first down in the 2nd half. Coincidence? Maybe. But he is the quarterback of the defense, so it's not something that you can casually dismiss or rationalize.

Go back and take a look at some of those short yardage plays from Sunday and you'll see that he's late getting to the hole. He's also not getting deep enough drops on passing plays, which is one of the reasons why we're so susceptible over the middle and 10 yards downfield. He's not garbage and he's not any worse than Barton was last season, but he's not doing much to help us, either.
 

Lagartixa

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The elephant in the room is Pete Carroll.

This is his team. These are his guys. He's running the show, and he's ran it into the ground.

The coordinators are simply his puppets, running his archaic schemes.

Please elaborate on this point. In what way are the schemes archaic? Don't be afraid to go into detail. I'm asking you to do so.
 

WarHawks

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I've seen enough from Geno. He can move the ball when conditions are ideal, but he when they go south, so does he. Great guy, likable, but he's not a fierce competitor who is going to take over a game and will the team to a win. He's just not, and we need to stop pretending otherwise. We need to draft a young legit #1 qbotf. Geno is not it.
 

hoxrox

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Please elaborate on this point. In what way are the schemes archaic? Don't be afraid to go into detail. I'm asking you to do so.
I'll take a shot at this, and I've always been an ardent PC supporter.

His football philosophy is to limit explosives and stop the run. You do both of those things well and you're more likely to win games. And he has had a lot of success using this formula.

The problem is the data which he derived these two tenets are based on studying football games that were played in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. As we know, football, and offenses specifically, have significantly changed since those days.

Sure there are still teams that are heavy run teams, but for most part, it's a pass happy league. That's what brings in the viewers and the NFL revenue.

What we saw on Sunday was a lot of soft zone, designed to limit explosives. The sideline explosives were limited, sure, but the result was that McVay and Stafford dinked and dunked their way to the endzone all day. Short and intermediate crossers over the middle all damn day. The defense was on the field for too long and it was another lopsided TOP game (40 mins to 20). The Rams controlled the clock and our offense really had no opportunity to get into a rhythm. Bookend tackles went out and it was a disaster with a new center still learning protection calls.

Furthermore, of the sounds and looks of it, it looks like they're scrapping the "Fangio 3-4" and reverting back to the defense of old (2-man / 4-man fronts)? It looked like that on Sunday.

Or are they? See, they don't even know. Hurtt says in pressers that their goal is to be "multiple." In other words, they have no real identity on defense. They're just kind of winging it. Maybe they thought that with Kupp out, McVay would run the ball all day. They were wrong.

They limited the Rams run game to 2.3 yards per carry. That was great. But that pass defense looked like the Norton days. It's like we've seen this show before. And it's getting kind of stale.
 

strohmin

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This is the way I'm looking at this. The Hawks offense basically sat the ENTIRE second half and the Hawks Defense was on the field the ENTIRE second half. Defense could have played better, but the real issue is Smith. Both Cross and Lucas were out, so what, what happened to next man up. I've said this last year and I'm saying it again, I'm not even close to being sold on Smith. There was ZERO to little tape on Smith prior to last year, so Smith came in here and lit it up. Now there's updated tape on Smith and teams can focus on how to adjust and stop, slow his ass down and it worked yesterday.
When we brought in Smith, I saw him as a Kirk Cousins type who can do well if the rest of the team plays their part. Id still prefer to have Smith over Wilson. Who else would we bring in to replace Geno. He also took a team friendly deal. Too place a majority of the blame on Smith is unfair. I actually have more faith in Geno bouncing back than this defense.
 

Sgt. Largent

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When we brought in Smith, I saw him as a Kirk Cousins type who can do well if the rest of the team plays their part. Id still prefer to have Smith over Wilson. Who else would we bring in to replace Geno. He also took a team friendly deal. Too place a majority of the blame on Smith is unfair. I actually have more faith in Geno bouncing back than this defense.

If those two tackles miss any significant time, you can expect more bad Geno.

Geno's not a creator, he's a game manager...........and you damn well can't manage a game under attack like he was in the 2nd half Sunday. It's gonna be a Looooooong season if Lucas and Cross miss a bunch of games.
 

keasley45

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Lets talk about the offense. What do you attribute to the issue here? Is it Waldron, is it Geno, or is it Pete? I honestly dont know. It just seemed eerily familiar to past seasons with that conservative offense.

It's a core philosophy of Pete to not play the game in a complicated way and rely instead on high execution and chemistry.

Starts with the philosophy and then those calling the plays within that framework.

Then, there's the players.

There were mistakes, but not to the degree that woukd warrant how lopsided the game was. Most of what I saw was a defense still not clicking on the backend with too many holes in our zone, just poor calls on D (Hurtt), and stale playbook in the 2nd half (waldron).

I think it was against the 9ers the first go-round last year when Pete remarked that the offense needed to open up. After that, we did, and were damn near unstoppable for 6 weeks.

Pete needs to get his D to 'get it', rely less on emotion, and more on focused play.

I think in the end, that's the biggest piece here. We have a team built in an unconventional way, around an unconventional philosophy. One that prioritizes intangibles, bond, and the individually will and spirit. This team is rich in that this year. They aren't yet (obviously) on the same xs and os page.

So, when we lose, the losses inherently look different than the typical, 'we got beat' loss. You coukd feel that even in the end of theLOB days. When the intangibles failed, so did the D.

So the answer. The philosophy is Pete's. If you want to fault him in losses, you have to acknowledge it was the same philosophy that made us the most euccessful team in thr league over a decade.

Does it mean the page has turned and this team is lost? Maybe. Or maybe the combination of talent and intangibles will come together over the season and this was just the wake-up call the players needed to understand its not just about the comraderie.

Whether that happens will depend on vets who aren't afraid to get in guys @sses and keep their heads in the game and assignment correct. When we were great, we had a Earl, Cam, and Sherm who woukdnt allow failure. Who is that on the defense now? Not Bobby. Different personality. Not Diggs. Not the young guys, for all their talent. The closest guy we've got? Reed and Adams... others need to step up.

Pete's philosophy needs generals more than most because it's built on the fire of youth.

So as troubling as the D was, and as shaky a ground Clint seems to be on ( I'm not sold on him either for the risk that he may very well lose the confidence of the guys very soon if he can't get them in position to succeed), I don't think what we sae Sunday is the identity of the team. Love is a vet, but new. He's finding his place. Same with Jones. And we will see what changes when Adams comes back and Witherspoon huts the field.

Hard to say how bad a game Waldron called. But there were some questionable decisions. The only way we succeed moving forward though is if the playbook opens up. It has to. The 'execute the simple stuff' philosophy needs to be abandoned.

I think Sunday was a combination of a team philosophy being forced into failure by injury on the O line.

I for one am thankful for the wakeup call 40 minutes into the season, rather than in November when the games get really tough.

We will see how the team responds.
 

morgulon1

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If he was fine with the Rams, they would have brought him back instead of letting him walk. They went from 12-5 and winning the Lombardi without him to 5-12 and a historic collapse with him, and now that they're without him again, they limit us to 12 total yards and one first down in the 2nd half. Coincidence? Maybe. But he is the quarterback of the defense, so it's not something that you can casually dismiss or rationalize.

Go back and take a look at some of those short yardage plays from Sunday and you'll see that he's late getting to the hole. He's also not getting deep enough drops on passing plays, which is one of the reasons why we're so susceptible over the middle and 10 yards downfield. He's not garbage and he's not any worse than Barton was last season, but he's not doing much to help us, either.
I was keeping my mouth shut regarding this waiting for someone else to bring it up . I noticed the same thing when the Rams were on our goal line he watched their RB head around the left tackle and then he decided to pursue the gap but was late. I wondered whether it was just a bad play, whether something else was supposed to happen or the dreaded Father time question.

I'm a big boxing fan and it happens to 100% of the fighters 100% of the time.
The funny thing is, it always seems to happen overnight and it's physical of course. All of a sudden a boxer is getting hit with shots he never got hit with, he's holding back on combinations he always threw because of the smallest decline in
Speed.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Hard to say how bad a game Waldron called. But there were some questionable decisions. The only way we succeed moving forward though is if the playbook opens up. It has to. The 'execute the simple stuff' philosophy needs to be abandoned.

Really well stated post keasley.

As far as this part, Steve Raible talked about it during the 5th Quarter show Sunday night. He said exactly this, that they probably didn't even get to 75% of the offensive gameplan because of how few plays they were running in the 2nd half, and after the tackles went out it was full survival mode.

So IMO the real indictment on how Pete and Waldron like to scheme and gameplan is FAR too reliant on layered success early in games to open things up in 2nd halves. That really leaves no room for things going wrong or needing to adjust quickly due to afore mentioned things going wrong, or injuries. Or both.

It's probably why this version of this offense rarely adjusts well in games, even at halftime. IF it's bad? It's gonna be bad the entire game.
 

keasley45

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If he was fine with the Rams, they would have brought him back instead of letting him walk. They went from 12-5 and winning the Lombardi without him to 5-12 and a historic collapse with him, and now that they're without him again, they limit us to 12 total yards and one first down in the 2nd half. Coincidence? Maybe. But he is the quarterback of the defense, so it's not something that you can casually dismiss or rationalize.

Go back and take a look at some of those short yardage plays from Sunday and you'll see that he's late getting to the hole. He's also not getting deep enough drops on passing plays, which is one of the reasons why we're so susceptible over the middle and 10 yards downfield. He's not garbage and he's not any worse than Barton was last season, but he's not doing much to help us, either.

Bobby was letting guys get open behind him, in front of him, beside him, when he was in his prime. That's nothing new. He benefited greatly from having Earl and Bam behind him. And that's not taking away from him at all. Can Bush be better in coverage? Maybe, but I don't think that's gonna have a chance of happening. Pete is loyal to his guys.
 

chrispy

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There's not really a single reason the game fell the way it did. Seahawks performed poorly in every aspect so fixing a single issue won't change the outcome in games to come. However, Rams have the Seahawks number. They consistently win v Seattle. This year, they also had the advantage of 6 mo of Stafford (and McVay) learning BWagz' weaknesses. He has more than he used to. Every short, over the middle, crosser... pass was a showcase on how to find matchups and manipulate the D and specifically ILB in coverage. He had a lot of tackles because his coverage responsibility caught the ball a lot. Bradford won't look as good in most games and BWagz probably won't be as poor in coverage.

Again, that's just one of many problems. Addressing BWagz in coverage doesn't fix gimpy OTs or a plethora of other issues. I just point out the above because there is reason to expect some improvement here and it hasn't been pointed out yet.
 
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SNDavidson

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I've seen enough from Geno. He can move the ball when conditions are ideal, but he when they go south, so does he. Great guy, likable, but he's not a fierce competitor who is going to take over a game and will the team to a win. He's just not, and we need to stop pretending otherwise. We need to draft a young legit #1 qbotf. Geno is not it.
I acknowledge this as a fair assessment, but I will withhold my verdict until mid-season, but this might be valid. Let's find out, it is put up or shut up time for Geno and the offense. Don't get me started on the defense, it's put up or shutup time for everyone, honestly.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Players and coaches. Show us, I don't need to hear any hype and/or excuses. Show us on the field. Sunday is a huge opportunity.
 

RiverDog

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Wow, when I saw all the alerts, I thought that posters were going to rip me a new A-hole again because of my take on Bobby's performance. It's refreshing to see that I'm not out here on an island.

The Rams game may not be a fair way to appraise Bobby's worth as was noted, he spent a full year with them and they're a division rival, so they know our defense quite well.

And just a little personal note regarding Bobby Wagner. One of my friends from work and a travel partner with whom I've attended a number of games with was a teammate with Bobby at Utah State (along with Robert Turbin and several others), actually got a tryout with the Seahawks. He has nothing but good things to say about Bobby, said that he's always been a good guy. Nice to hear that about a Seahawk legend.
 
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hawks85

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When we brought in Smith, I saw him as a Kirk Cousins type who can do well if the rest of the team plays their part. Id still prefer to have Smith over Wilson. Who else would we bring in to replace Geno. He also took a team friendly deal. Too place a majority of the blame on Smith is unfair. I actually have more faith in Geno bouncing back than this defense.
Give Drew Lock a chance. If Geno continues playing bad ball Lock will replace him at some point.
 
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