Confidence in Waldron is teetering

[BASF]

It is so nice to see some of the fans finally catching on regarding our OC's problems. One thing that I would like to throw out there is that the body language of the players is starting to show they are fed up with the offense. Most people assume they are fed up with Geno. It certainly looks though that Geno is fed up with the cornerbacks running the routes with the receivers stride for stride and sometimes better than the receivers themselves. People will say, the fourth read for Geno is open, he should be processing faster. To that, I say, how much time is the line giving him. People keep harping on the turnover worthy throws. They are being made because the routes are being repeated way too often and the corners know where to be.

Also, I have mentioned this before and some others are starting to notice, we are tipping plays. I don't remember which Hurtt interview it was but he was talking to I think KJ and mentioned that defensive coaches are always looking for a tell. A WR who leaves his gloves undone when he knows he will be blocking for a run play. A linemen who puts his hand in a certain spot when he knows he is pass blocking. Someone on our offense has a tell and it was exploited big time against the Ravens. It is up to our coaches to figure it out and correct it.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

My confidence in Waldron is gone. He's only good in spurts. That's not good enough.

 

[ccla]

Holy molly, how many OCs do we have to go through before we realize that this is endemic to the culture?
I am not even sayin that Pete controls the call, just that the culture he installed in the organization gets these results. The picks they make, the undervaluing of the most important position on the field. The fact that he refuses to draft a high pick QB every single time. I mean, I know that they do not grow on trees, but it has been a few years (and don’t tell me we had Russ; I can understand the fans realizing that he was a one trick pony after two contract renewals, especially because with him under center we won our first SB, but Pete better have know this after a couple of years - he should have planned for a replacement rather than giving him two very generous contracts for what basically we now know is not even a good game manager).

 

[hawkfan68]

I can’t remember all the names they had been interviewing for the OC before hiring Waldron. I’m willing to bet Waldron was one of the least qualified, if not the least, of the options (on paper) at that time.

Here’s a link to an 2021 article with some names - https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1282...candidates-list-may-signal-direction-they-go/

 

[bileever]

He's no McVay or Shanahan, that's for sure. Or even anyone of the LaFleurs. And he's definitely no Mike McDaniel.

But holy moly, we won't be able to execute jack until the O-line plays better. Geno's pressure rate has been terrible. Lamar, Burrow and Derek Carr have had less than half the hurries that Geno has had this year. And a lot fewer knockdowns and total pressures.

And you don't need any analytics to show you that the line is creating no holes for our RBs. You can see for yourself that most of the time when we try to run, Walker and Charbonnet are running into a brick wall. They don't need a lot of daylight, but something a little bigger than a crack would be nice.

 

[AK49Hawk]

It is so nice to see some of the fans finally catching on regarding our OC's problems. One thing that I would like to throw out there is that the body language of the players is starting to show they are fed up with the offense. Most people assume they are fed up with Geno. It certainly looks though that Geno is fed up with the cornerbacks running the routes with the receivers stride for stride and sometimes better than the receivers themselves. People will say, the fourth read for Geno is open, he should be processing faster. To that, I say, how much time is the line giving him. People keep harping on the turnover worthy throws. They are being made because the routes are being repeated way too often and the corners know where to be.

Also, I have mentioned this before and some others are starting to notice, we are tipping plays. I don't remember which Hurtt interview it was but he was talking to I think KJ and mentioned that defensive coaches are always looking for a tell. A WR who leaves his gloves undone when he knows he will be blocking for a run play. A linemen who puts his hand in a certain spot when he knows he is pass blocking. Someone on our offense has a tell and it was exploited big time against the Ravens. It is up to our coaches to figure it out and correct it.

Don’t underestimate the Harbaugh’s when it comes to “reading tells”. Do the Lions have the same tells as the Seahawks? Doubt it.

 

[Aircrew]

My confidence in Waldron is gone. He's only good in spurts. That's not good enough.

100% this.

 

[Wheetie]

I can’t remember all the names they had been interviewing for the OC before hiring Waldron. I’m willing to bet Waldron was one of the least qualified, if not the least, of the options (on paper) at that time.

Here’s a link to an 2021 article with some names - https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1282...candidates-list-may-signal-direction-they-go/

I firmly believe the offense runs through Pete. Waldron was likely the best "yes man" candidate. Offense has looked the same over the span of the last 3 OC's, the only constant is Pete Carroll. My opinion.

 

[renofox]

I firmly believe the offense runs through Pete. Waldron was likely the best "yes man" candidate. Offense has looked the same over the span of the last 3 OC's, the only constant is Pete Carroll. My opinion.

None of us know how much PC enforces his vision when the gameplan and pkaysheet are put together each week.

For all we know, Waldron is frustrated because he isn't allowed to run the plays he thinks are best each week.

For all we know, PC isn't giving enough input and Waldron is floundering.

Placing blame on one or the other is uninformed guesswork. All we know is that the partnership is not working.

I tend towards "PC is the problem" since we've had issues with periodic straight-up trash playcalling since he's been here, and both Bevell and Schotty are doing just fine with their new teams.

 

[AgentDib]

NFL play calling for any team is far more nuanced than most of this board realizes, and I've never gravitated to generic descriptions about play calling as a result. It's fine not to like it when plays don't work, but if your best explanation is that something was predictable, uninspired, or not creative then that's an opportunity to ask yourself what the play was supposed to accomplish and why it was called against that defensive look.

My first gripe on Sunday was that I don't like the combination of spending a 2nd on Charbs, plus continuing to run Walker up the middle, plus leaving Bradford on the bench. Waldron's answer could be that he was trying to set up big runs for Walker later in the game bouncing to the outside, maybe Bradford wasn't 100% healthy, and alternating drives between RBs allows each RB to get more into a rhythm. Having so many three and outs made it impossible to set up anything up.

My second gripe was that there were multiple passing plays where we didn't have any underneath routes for Geno to check down to. Waldron's answer could be that on those plays he had seven pass blockers against five rushers and so he was expecting Geno to have enough time for our downfield routes to develop.

Lastly, with both of our RTs having such a rough day we seemed way too slow to adjust. Dissly only had a handful of snaps and I don't think any of them were helping pass protect. If we're not going to help with a TE then I'd rather see a RB chipping and releasing on the right side. I'm not sure what Waldron's answer would be here; maybe just overconfidence in Jason Peters?

Holy molly, how many OCs do we have to go through before we realize that this is endemic to the culture?

Maybe I'm missing your point, but there are far, far too many complications around play calling to generalize this broadly unless what you really mean is that plays fail now and then for every OC and team in every game.

 

[cymatica]

Pete definitely holds some of the blame, but Waldron had no business out there calling plays against the Ravens. Seems unlikely Pete helped him devise that gameplan that involved keeping Geno stationary, abandoning the tight ends, and not helping the online. He probably trusted Shane's opinion on what was going to work. I won't be surprised if we see some run heavy gameplan the next few weeks.

 

[keasley45]

I can’t remember all the names they had been interviewing for the OC before hiring Waldron. I’m willing to bet Waldron was one of the least qualified, if not the least, of the options (on paper) at that time.

Here’s a link to an 2021 article with some names - https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1282...candidates-list-may-signal-direction-they-go/

I think he was ME3s choice because he came from the McVay tree.

 

[cymatica]

NFL play calling for any team is far more nuanced than most of this board realizes, and I've never gravitated to generic descriptions about play calling as a result. It's fine not to like it when plays don't work, but if your best explanation is that something was predictable, uninspired, or not creative then that's an opportunity to ask yourself what the play was supposed to accomplish and why it was called against that defensive look.

My first gripe on Sunday was that I don't like the combination of spending a 2nd on Charbs, plus continuing to run Walker up the middle, plus leaving Bradford on the bench. Waldron's answer could be that he was trying to set up big runs for Walker later in the game bouncing to the outside, maybe Bradford wasn't 100% healthy, and alternating drives between RBs allows each RB to get more into a rhythm. Having so many three and outs made it impossible to set up anything up.

My second gripe was that there were multiple passing plays where we didn't have any underneath routes for Geno to check down to. Waldron's answer could be that on those plays he had seven pass blockers against five rushers and so he was expecting Geno to have enough time for our downfield routes to develop.

Lastly, with both of our RTs having such a rough day we seemed way too slow to adjust. Dissly only had a handful of snaps and I don't think any of them were helping pass protect. If we're not going to help with a TE then I'd rather see a RB chipping and releasing on the right side. I'm not sure what Waldron's answer would be here; maybe just overconfidence in Jason Peters?

Maybe I'm missing your point, but there are far, far too many complications around play calling to generalize this broadly unless what you really mean is that plays fail now and then for every OC and team in every game.

Sure, but there are also simple generalizations that are completely valid. For example, if the other team is constantly blitzing and the coordinator keeps calling long developing plays, it's pretty obvious what the problem is.

When everyone and there mother knows not to run up the middle against the Ravens, yet the coordinator keeps calling runs up the gut for minimal or no gains, it's pretty obvious the simple answer would be to not run up the middle, or do it sparingly. If he did it to set up an outside run, then it failed miserably.

 

[keasley45]

NFL play calling for any team is far more nuanced than most of this board realizes, and I've never gravitated to generic descriptions about play calling as a result. It's fine not to like it when plays don't work, but if your best explanation is that something was predictable, uninspired, or not creative then that's an opportunity to ask yourself what the play was supposed to accomplish and why it was called against that defensive look.

My first gripe on Sunday was that I don't like the combination of spending a 2nd on Charbs, plus continuing to run Walker up the middle, plus leaving Bradford on the bench. Waldron's answer could be that he was trying to set up big runs for Walker later in the game bouncing to the outside, maybe Bradford wasn't 100% healthy, and alternating drives between RBs allows each RB to get more into a rhythm. Having so many three and outs made it impossible to set up anything up.

My second gripe was that there were multiple passing plays where we didn't have any underneath routes for Geno to check down to. Waldron's answer could be that on those plays he had seven pass blockers against five rushers and so he was expecting Geno to have enough time for our downfield routes to develop.

Lastly, with both of our RTs having such a rough day we seemed way too slow to adjust. Dissly only had a handful of snaps and I don't think any of them were helping pass protect. If we're not going to help with a TE then I'd rather see a RB chipping and releasing on the right side. I'm not sure what Waldron's answer would be here; maybe just overconfidence in Jason Peters?

Maybe I'm missing your point, but there are far, far too many complications around play calling to generalize this broadly unless what you really mean is that plays fail now and then for every OC and team in every game.

Agree with all of this. But, if we weren't relying on the short game because we thought our protection woukd hold, well, that assumption was blown by the 2nd qtr. Instead, and you can see this on the All22, there were often not even intermediary routes available. Theres one one sack i saw when geno was already in the grasp after hitting his drop and there wasnt a single wr ir te whod even turned around to look fro the ball yet.

To me, even if you have an extra blocker, you have a maligned line. So at best, the extra guys draw you even against the best D in the league. Why dont you go into the game fro the jump with a slice and dice passing attack? Procaruvely demoralize them and dissuade them from bringing pressure and pinning their ears back.

All that aside, I agree that too often we generalize or over simplify and have looked at film and come to a different realization than what seemed apparent in the flow of the game from the broadcast. But even with that, the fact that we have our rb priority inverted. That we didn't incorporate the TEs early. That there was little shirt game or screen game, despite Zach being lauded for his catching ability.

It doesn't add up to good scheming or awareness

 

[Wheetie]

None of us know how much PC enforces his vision when the gameplan and pkaysheet are put together each week.

For all we know, Waldron is frustrated because he isn't allowed to run the plays he thinks are best each week.

For all we know, PC isn't giving enough input and Waldron is floundering.

Placing blame on one or the other is uninformed guesswork. All we know is that the partnership is not working.

I tend towards "PC is the problem" since we've had issues with periodic straight-up trash playcalling since he's been here, and both Bevell and Schotty are doing just fine with their new teams.

I'm not sure how uninformed the assumption is though. I can see evidence right in front of me every week. There's no way Waldron can be as inept as he currently seems. I say it's because the gameplan always reverts back to an antiquated scheme that has been around for a while now. I was challenged in another thread asking what proof I had for my assumption. You nailed it Renofox when you say both previous OCs are finding success with their current teams. And ask yourself, does Dallas' offense look anything like Seattle's did under Schotty?

NFL play calling for any team is far more nuanced than most of this board realizes, and I've never gravitated to generic descriptions about play calling as a result. It's fine not to like it when plays don't work, but if your best explanation is that something was predictable, uninspired, or not creative then that's an opportunity to ask yourself what the play was supposed to accomplish and why it was called against that defensive look.

My first gripe on Sunday was that I don't like the combination of spending a 2nd on Charbs, plus continuing to run Walker up the middle, plus leaving Bradford on the bench. Waldron's answer could be that he was trying to set up big runs for Walker later in the game bouncing to the outside, maybe Bradford wasn't 100% healthy, and alternating drives between RBs allows each RB to get more into a rhythm. Having so many three and outs made it impossible to set up anything up.

My second gripe was that there were multiple passing plays where we didn't have any underneath routes for Geno to check down to. Waldron's answer could be that on those plays he had seven pass blockers against five rushers and so he was expecting Geno to have enough time for our downfield routes to develop.

Lastly, with both of our RTs having such a rough day we seemed way too slow to adjust. Dissly only had a handful of snaps and I don't think any of them were helping pass protect. If we're not going to help with a TE then I'd rather see a RB chipping and releasing on the right side. I'm not sure what Waldron's answer would be here; maybe just overconfidence in Jason Peters?

Maybe I'm missing your point, but there are far, far too many complications around play calling to generalize this broadly unless what you really mean is that plays fail now and then for every OC and team in every game.

Any Cowboys fans in here? I'm not, don't follow them at all really. That said, I'd sure be curious to hear if Scotty's current scheming looks any different than what he ran here. I realize working with different players dictate scheme to a degree, but if what they're doing in Dallas is totally different, and they're finding decent success this year, this would give me a good idea if Pete has a lot of influence over his OC's or not.

 

[Spin Doctor]

The thing that I see is most consistent within our offenses across coordinators is these things:

Emphasis on the deep ball and long developing plays.

We love running deep crossing routes to the sideline, no matter the down and distance.

Offense is fairly straight forward in alignment. We line up and play it as it lies for the most part. There are a couple of personal flourishes from each coordinator.

Big emphasis on the scramble drill, even under different QBs not named Wilson.

I think it is safe to say that Carroll does have some say here on the offense. I do know that he stated that most of the playbook would be his when Schottenheimer was hired on.

There are definitely some of the same tendencies across these coordinators.

 

[knownone]

Is it possible that playing two elite defenses has people overreacting to our recent offensive struggles? Let's quantify things: 25% of the Seahawks' games have been against the league's #1 and #2 defenses, and 50% have been against top 10 defenses. Yet, the offense is 14th in EPA/Play, 9th in SR, 7th in pass SR, and 10th in DVOA.

Things may change. But right now, we have two games remaining against top 10 defenses. Unless Geno's confidence is shot, I don't think there's any reason to worry about the offense, Waldron, or Geno.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Gotta say, yes, the common denominator, is and always has been, Pete Carroll.

We all know since we watch years and years and now decades of Pete Carroll offense.

Rather more than simple, Carroll’s has his fingerprints in all offensive coordinators he has and for the most part, all never ran a high tempo, exotic package spread them out and throw for 400 yards a game.

Carroll, has been on record he’s fine with 200 yard games on offense and winning with the you know Seattle will run even when it’s 8 man in the box. That’s just how Carroll prefers to play. No hidden schemes and a very vanilla offense.

Waldron has always been a puppet for Carroll.

Difference from last year was Seattle’s offensive line somewhat over performed with their bookend tackles and now Seattle doesn’t have that advantage anymore.

Geno, isn’t a playmaker without a group of solid, solid, guys up front. We are seeing that now.

It doesn’t matter who Seattle adds at OC if Carroll is HC. All OCs have been underwhelming under Carroll and it’s not so much the OCs fault but the game management design Carroll wishes to play instead of going for the scores and putting up yards and points by any means.

An OC is very limited when they coach under Carroll and this should be apparent now. We have seen Carroll’s impact on OCs for a long time and too be honest, it’s MOST LIKELY not going to change with a new OC.

In order for the Seahawks offense to look great as in tops in this league, it will require an elite offensive line the way Carroll runs “his offense.”

We’re doomed!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'm not sure how uninformed the assumption is though. I can see evidence right in front of me every week. There's no way Waldron can be as inept as he currently seems. I say it's because the gameplan always reverts back to an antiquated scheme that has been around for a while now. I was challenged in another thread asking what proof I had for my assumption. You nailed it Renofox when you say both previous OCs are finding success with their current teams. And ask yourself, does Dallas' offense look anything like Seattle's did under Schotty?

Any Cowboys fans in here? I'm not, don't follow them at all really. That said, I'd sure be curious to hear if Scotty's current scheming looks any different than what he ran here. I realize working with different players dictate scheme to a degree, but if what they're doing in Dallas is totally different, and they're finding decent success this year, this would give me a good idea if Pete has a lot of influence over his OC's or not.

Every HC has influence over their coordinators to some degree.

Also, yes his offense does look a lot different. It’s also worth mentioning that Russell Wilson forces offenses to play a certain way.

The routes are different, there is a screen game, a lot more short routes/timing passes. I also saw a lot more movement at the LOS than when he was here.

Now, it’s worth being said, there is also McCarthy. He likely has some influence over the offense.

Bevells on the other hand is low level, can’t even call him a coordinator right now. His offenses looked at times perplexing on the Lions.

 

[seabowl]

The offensive line has been decimated this year by injuries. Additionally, Geno is mostly just a game manager, and by no means even close to a star. Not saying that Waldron doesn’t have his problems, but these other things are not on him. They want to run the ball but because of the offensive line and that they are down in games it is forcing them to throw more than they would like.