C Mike

[Basis4day]

BTW
Pete said in his presser that Michael had/has some problems with blocking. I think, specifically, he was asked what aspects CM needed to improve upon and he said "all aspects" but then he went on to talk about one or two whiffs on blocking assignments.

He also talked about the Oline and how those young guys have earned playing time even when Breno and Okung get back. I see the RB spot the same. CM has earned some playing time but isn't complete enough to take the number 1 or 2 spot. That's not to say that he won't use the offseason or even these last 6 games to take it, but he hasn't yet. To me though, he has shown enough to give him some carries. I think it's just that easy to analyze.

Hope everyone who has asked why Michael doesn't get on the field listens to yesterday's presser. As far as i am aware, it's the first time Pete has addressed his playing time. There are areas that Michael does need to improve, and Pete specifically pointed out pass blocking. Up until now it was assumed that pass blocking was an issue. Pete has now stated it's an issue. Now you can go and say, "Well, it's been ten weeks so it can't still be an issue." Remember, live contact is very very limited in practices following the last CBA. If you listen to what Pete says, he needs to see improvement during live contact, in other words, in the game time situations. Pete isn't willing to throw Michael in there on the chance he whiffs an assignment, so the only way Michael is going to see the field and have a chance for improvement this year is if the team starts blowing out opponents and Michael gets his touches in garbage time.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Turbin seems to be a clone of Lynch.

I don't see that comparison at all.

 

[Missing_Clink]

Turbin seems to be a clone of Lynch.

I don't see that comparison at all.

Yea, that is not true at all. People see the arms and think that Turbin a monster that can run through anyone. He's not a power back. He is a fast guy that can get to the edge and hit the hole with a lot of speed, but he will not be breaking many tackles. Lynch is the ultimate tackle breaker with the power of a semi truck.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Turbin seems to be a clone of Lynch.

Wat


There's only one clone of Lynch, and he's already retired. His name's Earl Campbell.

 

[CortezKennedyfan]

Christine Michael = Great Ball Carrier but Average Running Back.

In the next season or 2, they'll try to develop him into a great back.

 

[formido]

BTW
Pete said in his presser that Michael had/has some problems with blocking. I think, specifically, he was asked what aspects CM needed to improve upon and he said "all aspects" but then he went on to talk about one or two whiffs on blocking assignments.

He also talked about the Oline and how those young guys have earned playing time even when Breno and Okung get back. I see the RB spot the same. CM has earned some playing time but isn't complete enough to take the number 1 or 2 spot. That's not to say that he won't use the offseason or even these last 6 games to take it, but he hasn't yet. To me though, he has shown enough to give him some carries. I think it's just that easy to analyze.

Hope everyone who has asked why Michael doesn't get on the field listens to yesterday's presser. As far as i am aware, it's the first time Pete has addressed his playing time. There are areas that Michael does need to improve, and Pete specifically pointed out pass blocking. Up until now it was assumed that pass blocking was an issue. Pete has now stated it's an issue. Now you can go and say, "Well, it's been ten weeks so it can't still be an issue." Remember, live contact is very very limited in practices following the last CBA. If you listen to what Pete says, he needs to see improvement during live contact, in other words, in the game time situations. Pete isn't willing to throw Michael in there on the chance he whiffs an assignment, so the only way Michael is going to see the field and have a chance for improvement this year is if the team starts blowing out opponents and Michael gets his touches in garbage time.

Eh, Pete's lying. Does it all the time. Or he's being too conservative, another thing he does plenty. Bailey came in last game and played awesome, just like he did during preseason. If you'd asked Carroll a month ago why he wasn't playing Bailey, he would have said something and whatever he said would have been wrong. Michael's pass blocking was just as good or better than Turbin's most games in the preseason and, even if it weren't, the offense moved better when Michael was in, so apparently the pass blocking/run talent trade-off with Michael is better regardless. It would take some pretty spectacularly bad pass blocking to offset the 43 yard TD Michael ripped off when Russell Wilson handed off to him against Green Bay's first team defense. And the 25 yard screen pass when he was dead to rights behind the line of scrimmage and burst between two defenders.

More likely explanations are that, due to Michael's past behavioral issues, they want to maintain firm control on his ego, or as @kearly has said, they want him champing at the bit next year, or they don't want Lynch feeling threatened, or they want to feature Turbin for a trade.

For my part, I'm beyond excited to get Michael on the field, but one thing really worries me. He's already had an ACL tear and I can see why: He's a quad dominant athlete. Quad dominant athletes have high vertical leaps and Michael holds the RB combine record at 43 inches. His shuttle, 3-cone, and 10m split on his 40 are all off the charts, more evidence of quad dominance, but he doesn't finish the 40 at an elite level, when glutes/hamstrings take over more. You can also see it in his glute development just by looking at him.

Quad dominance makes you super quick and shifty. The problem is that athletes who initiate movement with their quads instead of glutes are much more likely to have ACL tears[1][2]. People say Michael runs like AP and he does and it carries the same risks. High performance machines are subject to breaking.

They know he's had an ACL tear though. You're more likely to tear an ACL the more tired and more work you get. Since thinking about it, I've become worried about trying to turn Michael into a workhorse like Lynch. I'm hoping they're planning to use Ware and Michael together in thunder and lightning roles. If not, I foresee spectacular seasons from Michael interspersed with missing ones.

And/or get him on a forward thinking training program to change his movement patterns to initiate from the hip and balance out his strength in the posterior chain.

1. Ad for an ACL injury prevention program talking about the role of glutes in ACL tears, based on case study from dude's role as strength coach for a college football team:

http://www.dieselcrew.com/ACL/deceleration-training.htm

2. The role of glute development and glute-initiated movement patterns in ACL tears is just making its way into the strength and conditioning community. Here's an article about it:

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/09/20/bert-mand ... revention/

Glutes are euphemistically referred to herein as "the hip". The glutes are the primary stabilizing muscle of the hip.

 

[DavidSeven]

Pete said in his presser that the biggest challenge for Michael is knowing who to block (assignment) and then actually blocking them (execution). I knew this was an issue for him since pre-season. If you go back and watch those games, he looks completely lost on blitz pick-up. This isn't that uncommon for young backs, but Turbin is just way ahead of him in this regard.

If you watch Turbin on passing plays, he knows immediately who to block and then smashes into them with force. Pete also spoke highly of Turbin's blocking ability and said he picked it up way faster than most young backs -- says he has an aptitude for for it. I think his huge upper body helps him here -- he's strong enough to stonewall a linebacker by himself.

 

[Basis4day]

BTW
Pete said in his presser that Michael had/has some problems with blocking. I think, specifically, he was asked what aspects CM needed to improve upon and he said "all aspects" but then he went on to talk about one or two whiffs on blocking assignments.

He also talked about the Oline and how those young guys have earned playing time even when Breno and Okung get back. I see the RB spot the same. CM has earned some playing time but isn't complete enough to take the number 1 or 2 spot. That's not to say that he won't use the offseason or even these last 6 games to take it, but he hasn't yet. To me though, he has shown enough to give him some carries. I think it's just that easy to analyze.

Hope everyone who has asked why Michael doesn't get on the field listens to yesterday's presser. As far as i am aware, it's the first time Pete has addressed his playing time. There are areas that Michael does need to improve, and Pete specifically pointed out pass blocking. Up until now it was assumed that pass blocking was an issue. Pete has now stated it's an issue. Now you can go and say, "Well, it's been ten weeks so it can't still be an issue." Remember, live contact is very very limited in practices following the last CBA. If you listen to what Pete says, he needs to see improvement during live contact, in other words, in the game time situations. Pete isn't willing to throw Michael in there on the chance he whiffs an assignment, so the only way Michael is going to see the field and have a chance for improvement this year is if the team starts blowing out opponents and Michael gets his touches in garbage time.

Eh, Pete's lying. Does it all the time. Or he's being too conservative, another thing he does plenty. Bailey came in last game and played awesome, just like he did during preseason. If you'd asked Carroll a month ago why he wasn't playing Bailey, he would have said something and whatever he said would have been wrong. Michael's pass blocking was just as good or better than Turbin's most games in the preseason and, even if it weren't, the offense moved better when Michael was in, so apparently the pass blocking/run talent trade-off with Michael is better regardless. It would take some pretty spectacularly bad pass blocking to offset the 43 yard TD Michael ripped off when Russell Wilson handed off to him against Green Bay's first team defense. And the 25 yard screen pass when he was dead to rights behind the line of scrimmage and burst between two defenders.

Pete rarely lies when answering a question since hes been coach. When he gives a responsive answer, it's usually true. When he doesn't want to give a responsive answer he will dismiss the question or give a non answer. But stating he lies all the time is simply incorrect.

I don't think you can judge Michael's pass blocking in the preseason as evidence that he can pass block in the regular season. You simply don't get the same defensive looks and reads that the RB would need to adjust to. Pete stated hes not ready to have Michael make those adjustments in game time situations yet. Based on Michael's playing time this far and Pete's explanation, you can't really say it doesn't explain the situation. Pete's response to Michael's playing time is consistent with the evidence.

If we get more blowouts and more Michael late in games, you'll see more of Michael in the future. It's a very simple explanation, albeit a frustrating one for many fans. If they allowed more live contact in practice, we'd see more of Michael.

 

[Happypuppy]

One of the things I noticed with Cmike ; He runs with the ball hanging out there for too long. Not tight at contact like Lynch and Turbin. He needs to still work in that as well.

 

[jlwaters1]

Kinda surprised by the responses...

Michael looked two fold better than Turbin and way more explosive, with better cut backs.

Won't mind if Turbin heads out, don't think he's a good back up RB anyway.

Just my take.

Then you'd be fine the additional sacks he allows? PC even said yesterday that Turbin is a great blocker and that he is far ahead of C-Mike in the aspect. I like Turbin a lot, he hasn't had many passes come his way this year, I don't think it's entirely fair to say he goes down too easily when C-MIke did just that on one of his last plays loosing serveral yards. He also had massive holes to run through, where Turbin did not. He was constantly getting contacting 1-2 from scrimmage. I like both players, but I don't see why we have to put down 1 to boost up the other.

 

[-The Glove-]

Turbin is terrible after initial contact and I think Evan Silva wrote an article saying he is one of the worst in the league at it. Turbin is safe and doesn't make mistakes and is good on third downs. He's not even in the same conversation as a runner with Michael. I will be shocked if he doesn't get more carries as the season goes on.

I think he has "earned" it based on what I saw against Atlanta.

How can you say that when you've seen CM touch the ball only a handful of times?

 

[Jville]

Christine Michael strikes me as a promising two year project that could possibly slide into a 3rd year.

 

[HawkWow]

BTW
Pete said in his presser that Michael had/has some problems with blocking. I think, specifically, he was asked what aspects CM needed to improve upon and he said "all aspects" but then he went on to talk about one or two whiffs on blocking assignments.

He also talked about the Oline and how those young guys have earned playing time even when Breno and Okung get back. I see the RB spot the same. CM has earned some playing time but isn't complete enough to take the number 1 or 2 spot. That's not to say that he won't use the offseason or even these last 6 games to take it, but he hasn't yet. To me though, he has shown enough to give him some carries. I think it's just that easy to analyze.

Hope everyone who has asked why Michael doesn't get on the field listens to yesterday's presser. As far as i am aware, it's the first time Pete has addressed his playing time. There are areas that Michael does need to improve, and Pete specifically pointed out pass blocking. Up until now it was assumed that pass blocking was an issue. Pete has now stated it's an issue. Now you can go and say, "Well, it's been ten weeks so it can't still be an issue." Remember, live contact is very very limited in practices following the last CBA. If you listen to what Pete says, he needs to see improvement during live contact, in other words, in the game time situations. Pete isn't willing to throw Michael in there on the chance he whiffs an assignment, so the only way Michael is going to see the field and have a chance for improvement this year is if the team starts blowing out opponents and Michael gets his touches in garbage time.

Eh, Pete's lying. Does it all the time. Or he's being too conservative, another thing he does plenty. Bailey came in last game and played awesome, just like he did during preseason. If you'd asked Carroll a month ago why he wasn't playing Bailey, he would have said something and whatever he said would have been wrong. Michael's pass blocking was just as good or better than Turbin's most games in the preseason and, even if it weren't, the offense moved better when Michael was in, so apparently the pass blocking/run talent trade-off with Michael is better regardless. It would take some pretty spectacularly bad pass blocking to offset the 43 yard TD Michael ripped off when Russell Wilson handed off to him against Green Bay's first team defense. And the 25 yard screen pass when he was dead to rights behind the line of scrimmage and burst between two defenders.

More likely explanations are that, due to Michael's past behavioral issues, they want to maintain firm control on his ego, or as @kearly has said, they want him champing at the bit next year, or they don't want Lynch feeling threatened, or they want to feature Turbin for a trade.

For my part, I'm beyond excited to get Michael on the field, but one thing really worries me. He's already had an ACL tear and I can see why: He's a quad dominant athlete. Quad dominant athletes have high vertical leaps and Michael holds the RB combine record at 43 inches. His shuttle, 3-cone, and 10m split on his 40 are all off the charts, more evidence of quad dominance, but he doesn't finish the 40 at an elite level, when glutes/hamstrings take over more. You can also see it in his glute development just by looking at him.

Quad dominance makes you super quick and shifty. The problem is that athletes who initiate movement with their quads instead of glutes are much more likely to have ACL tears[1][2]. People say Michael runs like AP and he does and it carries the same risks. High performance machines are subject to breaking.

They know he's had an ACL tear though. You're more likely to tear an ACL the more tired and more work you get. Since thinking about it, I've become worried about trying to turn Michael into a workhorse like Lynch. I'm hoping they're planning to use Ware and Michael together in thunder and lightning roles. If not, I foresee spectacular seasons from Michael interspersed with missing ones.

And/or get him on a forward thinking training program to change his movement patterns to initiate from the hip and balance out his strength in the posterior chain.

1. Ad for an ACL injury prevention program talking about the role of glutes in ACL tears, based on case study from dude's role as strength coach for a college football team:

http://www.dieselcrew.com/ACL/deceleration-training.htm

2. The role of glute development and glute-initiated movement patterns in ACL tears is just making its way into the strength and conditioning community. Here's an article about it:

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/09/20/bert-mand ... revention/

Glutes are euphemistically referred to herein as "the hip". The glutes are the primary stabilizing muscle of the hip.

Wow...didn't know all that. Great insight and appreciated.

I don't want to pile on the poster that said Turbin is a Lynch clone. He's entitled to that opinion, if that's what he sees. Ironically, from the tape I've seen. it's Michael that is more Lynch-like than Turbin. Even though CM is more explosive, both men look for contact more than they shy away from it.

Michael is going to be good. I am sure of it. But one thing I've noticed in his limited action, mainly pre-season, is that he sometimes dances a bit behind "the line". yes, I use the term loosely. Hard to say if that is habitual, or if he just never saw a line that bad before and he's dancing the dance of the confused. BUT...there was a time, and extended amount of time actually, that Barry sanders did the exact same thing. He turned out OK.

 

[AF_Hawk]

Looks much better than turbs as a ballcarrier. But a rb does have other responsibilities.

This. I think he has a higher ceiling than shoestring but like sadhappy said there is more to being a RB than running with the ball.

 

[Ozzy]

We saw him in the preseason and in limited action and it was enough for me to see he is far better than Turbin. Do you need to see 30 carries to tell Adrian Peterson is elite? Not saying Michael is AP but it's easy to see that he has some special talent. Can't think of the coaches name but he works with a ton of running backs every year and said he's the most impressive since AP that he's worked with.

 

[HawkWow]

We saw him in the preseason and in limited action and it was enough for me to see he is far better than Turbin.

Why have you not taken this to Pete? This isn't something you should just be casually mentioning on some message board...get this information / revelation to Pete before Turbin dooms us awwwwwww for the love of God, man!!

In all seriousness, you and I are both amazing evaluators of talent. After just a few carries by CM, you see him as superior to Turbin. After reading just one of your posts, I see you as superior to Pete. Me and you are good like that. Gifted.

 

[hawk45]

I feel like CMike is the more explosive, dangerous back running the ball than Turbin. I don't have enough to even form an opinion on pass-blocking.

All standard qualifiers apply:

-I'm a fan not a coach, and I do trust the coaches
-We've only seen CMike in limited action

 

[scutterhawk]

I like Turbin as a 3rd down back. Nothing more though.

He's only 23. According to at least one analysis: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/articles/age.htm the peak for running backs is about 28.

From year's of watching football, I would say it is between 25-28.

With age comes sage.
You can stand on the sidelines and watch 'til your eyes bleed, but C. Michaels won't realize his full potential, until he's been into the fray, and running against PRO Defenses for awhile.
Turbin saw a lot more time in his Rookie Season than Michaels has so far, so it has to be something that Turbin brings to his game that the Coaches feel warrants him that earlier, and more frequent playing time.

 

[scutterhawk]

Here's something for the Turbo haters to think about; In Turbin's first 121 carries as a Seahawk (2012 & '13) he has never fumbled the ball. That is a great stat for a back up RB. He is the consistent guy who doesn't need to get into rhythm and doesn't turn the ball over.

With that said, I love what we've seen out of C-Mike. He ran with purpose yesterday and you could see it. Hopefully he will continue to champ at the bit and produce when we call his number.

I agree with mrblitz a bit, he could use a little more patience and use his explosion, but hitting the hole at that speed every time is going to set you up for those big runs.

"Turbo Haters"?, what the hell are you talking about?

 

[HawkWow]

I feel like CMike is the more explosive, dangerous back running the ball than Turbin. I don't have enough to even form an opinion on pass-blocking.

All standard qualifiers apply:

-I'm a fan not a coach, and I do trust the coaches
-We've only seen CMike in limited action

I think your post sums the situation up really well. The eye test certainly suggests Michael has a bit more burst than Turbin, but much more than burst is expected from the position. Few have bitched more about Michael playing less, than I, but I am Seahawk first, player second. There's no way in hell I would be able to convince myself that Pete hasn't weighed all the factors in deciding who should get the heavier load. Pete's livelihood is at stake, we're just in it for entertainment. He's banking his future that Turbin is our guy and that's good enough for me.