Woolen needs to be benched...

[keasley45]

Funny part about that 3rd down catch and run that set up the short 4th down, in a weird way it may have helped the Hawks. Let's say the Jets throw incomplete on 3rd down and are 4th and forever. With more than 2 min left (I think) and 2 timeouts they probably punt and the Hawks have the ball around their own 25. If the O does not get a first down, now we are are probably punting back to them with time on the clock and either having to go for it or have Meyers punt.

The Jets using up another minute or so before turning it over on downs meant being able to kneel it lout.

Was thinking this as it happened. It shortened the game a good bit.

 

[KinesProf]

Woolen's speed and Spoon's hustle often put them near plays where lesser players wouldn't even appear on the screen; sometimes that can make them look they have missed. But zoom out, check the all-22, and you'll see that they're often getting involved after fulfilling their primary responsibilities.

 

[nanomoz]

The number of cornerbacks in NFL history with athleticism anywhere near Woolen's that didn't always play as physically as they should has about 5 people on it. Maybe 3. One of them is Charles Woodson.

But I don't disagree that a message should be sent.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

Per the PFF data, Spoon is used in the pass rush way more than Woolen. They both tackle about the same (both are better tacklers than Sauce Gardner!). Woolen has a lower REC% and fewer yards surrendered but part of that can be attributed to playing fewer games than Spoon and also how they're used (i.e. CB or NB). When considering all this it makes it harder to compare the two as they aren't used the same way. Which brings me back to PFF instead of using an overly simplistic method of only looking at REC%.

We are talking about pass defense, not pass rushing.

It is irrelevant that Spoon has played one more game, because REC% is a ratio receptions/targets, not the quantity of receptions allowed. For that, all we need is a large enough sample size of snaps to yield a meaningful stat. We have that for both of them.

Yes, they line up in different positions, but on every pass play where they have a man/zone to cover, REC% applies.

There must be at least 12-15 slot CBs with better REC% than Spoon, but damn few outside CBs with better REC% than Riq.

REC% is a simple stat, but it is also the best. It remains a mystery what all numbers PFF loads into their “coverage” stat to arrive at 65 for both of them. Give me REC% every day of the week.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

"The second, third and fourth-highest grades on defense this week went to free safety Julian Love (85.9) cornerback Riq Woolen (79.3) and safety Coby Bryant (77.5)."

 

[GetNjigbaWithIt]

"The second, third and fourth-highest grades on defense this week went to free safety Julian Love (85.9) cornerback Riq Woolen (79.3) and safety Coby Bryant (77.5)."

 

[SeaWolv]

We are talking about pass defense, not pass rushing.

It is irrelevant that Spoon has played one more game, because REC% is a ratio receptions/targets, not the quantity of receptions allowed. For that, all we need is a large enough sample size of snaps to yield a meaningful stat. We have that for both of them.

Yes, they line up in different positions, but on every pass play where they have a man/zone to cover, REC% applies.

There must be at least 12-15 slot CBs with better REC% than Spoon, but damn few outside CBs with better REC% than Riq.

REC% is a simple stat, but it is also the best. It remains a mystery what all numbers PFF loads into their “coverage” stat to arrive at 65 for both of them. Give me REC% every day of the week.

You might be talking about pass defense but I'm talking about who is the better CB which you seem to think REC% is the only metric that matters and I don't. PFF doesn't either. I'm gonna go with PFF over anonymous internet guy.

Number of games played is not irrelevant, a player could have a REC% of 100 after 1 game, does that mean he's the best CB in the league compared to a CB with a REC% of 80 after 5 games??

Per PFF Spoon is #22 CB in the NFL this year and Woolen is #44.

 

[DTiempo81]

PFF is a joke and anyone who takes it seriously needs to check their head.

 

[rigelian]

Honestly, I've seen Woolen out of position more than Spoon, but Woolen also is quite possibly one of the most athletic corners in the game. I think he leans on this aspect of his game WAY too much. The dude is 6'4 and runs a 4.26 40, all of his measurables make him sound like a freaking superhero. I've seen him get burnt bad and make a silly recovery because of his speed. I suspect that he relies on this aspect of his game way too much. He can simply get away with things that most people can't.

I suspect that he baits quarterbacks quite a bit and relies heavily on his speed to recover. When your physically capable of recovery it isn't silly.

 

[RiverDog]

Boy, a lot of comments in this thread. No way I can read all of them.

It's hard to get a handle on the performance of a specific defensive back as the TV angle doesn't show them all the time. You have to be at the stadium, optimally high in the 300 level, to see how they do in coverage, so I really can't comment about Woolen's general performance.

But there was one play in last Sunday's game vs. the Jets where Woolen half assed pursued a ball carrier to the sideline and let him get the angle on him. Macdonald didn't have to chew him out as several of the Hawks players really got on his ass about it, and rightfully so.

For what it's worth, PFF has Woolen graded out at 67.9 overall, which isn't great, but not that bad, either. However, loafing on one play like he did last Sunday could very well justify at least a temporary benching, especially one as visible as the one Sunday where the whole team saw him dragging his ass. It would send a signal to the rest of the team that it's not acceptable and that there are consequences.

Woolen was benched last year for a time because of his sloppy tackling. He looked like he had improved his play under Mac, but perhaps he's slipping back into some bad habits. He's an amazing athlete, is our fastest DB, and I'd hate to give up on him.

 

[DTiempo81]

Boy, a lot of comments in this thread. No way I can read all of them.

It's hard to get a handle on the performance of a specific defensive back as the TV angle doesn't show them all the time. You have to be at the stadium, optimally high in the 300 level, to see how they do in coverage, so I really can't comment about Woolen's general performance.

But there was one play in last Sunday's game vs. the Jets where Woolen half assed pursued a ball carrier to the sideline and let him get the angle on him. Macdonald didn't have to chew him out as several of the Hawks players really got on his ass about it, and rightfully so.

For what it's worth, PFF has Woolen graded out at 67.9 overall, which isn't great, but not that bad, either. However, loafing on one play like he did last Sunday could very well justify at least a temporary benching, especially one as visible as the one Sunday where the whole team saw him dragging his ass. It would send a signal to the rest of the team that it's not acceptable and that there are consequences.

Woolen was benched last year for a time because of his sloppy tackling. He looked like he had improved his play under Mac, but perhaps he's slipping back into some bad habits. He's an amazing athlete, is our fastest DB, and I'd hate to give up on him.

You really should read the thread. This has all been addressed.

 

[SeaWolv]

PFF is a joke and anyone who takes it seriously needs to check their head.

Yeah cause no one in the sporting world uses their services…SMH

 

[Bear-Hawk]

You might be talking about pass defense but I'm talking about who is the better CB which you seem to think REC% is the only metric that matters and I don't. PFF doesn't either. I'm gonna go with PFF over anonymous internet guy.

Number of games played is not irrelevant, a player could have a REC% of 100 after 1 game, does that mean he's the best CB in the league compared to a CB with a REC% of 80 after 5 games??

Per PFF Spoon is #22 CB in the NFL this year and Woolen is #44.

This discussion all began with you disputing my statement that Riq is better than Spoon in pass defense, as evidenced by the wide gap in REC%.

Yes, if a guy played only one game, the stat would not have much reliability, but that’s not the situation here. Both players have large enough sample size of snaps to yield valid comparison on REC%.

I have said two or three times, that I am only talking about pass defense, not who is better overall player.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Sorry Bear, I get what you're saying. Go Hawks

 

[Bear-Hawk]

PFF is a joke and anyone who takes it seriously needs to check their head.

This is a widely-held misconception. All 32 NFL teams and 102 FBS college teams use PFF data. It is not perfect. It is not useless. It is somewhere in-between. I am a scientist. I have tried unsuccessfully to find some solid empirical study on the predictive validity of their data. For example, does PFF grade predict contract extensions?

 

[CouchLogic]

This is a widely-held misconception. All 32 NFL teams and 102 FBS college teams use PFF data. It is not perfect. It is not useless. It is somewhere in-between.

19 NFL teams at .500 or worse, maybe teams need to use another metric and leave pff to desk jockeys [lol].

 

[Bear-Hawk]

19 NFL teams at .500 or worse, maybe teams need to use another metric and leave pff to desk jockeys [lol].

The fact is, no team has the internal resources to collect this much data on every player in the league. They use it for scouting and evaluating trade proposals.

 

[SeaWolv]

This discussion all began with you disputing my statement that Riq is better than Spoon in pass defense, as evidenced by the wide gap in REC%.

Yes, if a guy played only one game, the stat would not have much reliability, but that’s not the situation here. Both players have large enough sample size of snaps to yield valid comparison on REC%.

I have said two or three times, that I am only talking about pass defense, not who is better overall player.

Apparently you’re one of “those guys” that has to have the last word. So this will be mine on this topic and you can do your thing.

I started out talking who is the better CB, you tried to turn it to who’s a better defender. Defending is only part of what a CB does. Per PFF they are similar in that respect which they call coverage. For me that’s a full stop.

Stats like REC% can be influenced by things like your opponent playing from behind or playing with a lead, the skill of the WRs the CB is matched up against, whether the opposing QB is a starter or a backup, etc. So missing certain games can have an impact on your precious REC% that PFF scores tend to account for.

Spoon is the better CB and it’s not close.

 

[DTiempo81]

This is a widely-held misconception. All 32 NFL teams and 102 FBS college teams use PFF data. It is not perfect. It is not useless. It is somewhere in-between. I am a scientist. I have tried unsuccessfully to find some solid empirical study on the predictive validity of their data. For example, does PFF grade predict contract extensions?

Just because they use it, doesn't mean it has any merit.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

Just because they use it, doesn't mean it has any merit.

If this were an IPO in 2024, I would agree, but that’s not the case. It’s been around for a long time. Every NFL team wouldn’t keep coming back to it year after year, if they weren’t seeing benefits.