Why '23 will be better than '22: Front 7

Bear-Hawk

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We can agree to disagree, but if you are presenting a highly unlikely argument as a fact with no evidence then telling me to do my own research is not persuasive. I listed Kennedy and Sapp as the two HOF DTs that I could think of being over 300 lbs, and both were prototype 3 techs.

The truth is that big run stoppers have a largely thankless job that doesn't show up in the stat sheet. Somebody mentioned HOF 3tech Kevin Williams above, who usually just had a single guard to deal with as Pat Williams clogged up the middle of that Vikings defense but received far fewer accolades for it.
You understand that 3-tech and nose tackle are different positions. The topic is NT. I checked the weight of all HOF nose tackles a couple weeks ago. I did not keep my notes, and I’m not doing it again unless you are calling me a liar. They average 334.
 

BASF

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You understand that 3-tech and nose tackle are different positions. The topic is NT. I checked the weight of all HOF nose tackles a couple weeks ago. I did not keep my notes, and I’m not doing it again unless you are calling me a liar. They average 334.
Can you come up with a name of any Nose Tackle that is in the Hall Of Fame?

Here are the actual hall of famers that played DT:

Junious Buchanan (DT) 1963-1975
Curley Culp 1968-1981
Art Donovan (DT) 1950-1961
Joe Greene (DT) 1969-1981
Dan Hampton (DT-DE) 1979-1990
Henry Jordan (DT) 1957-1969
Cortez Kennedy (DT) 1990-2000
Bob Lilly (DT) 1961-1974
Leo Nomellini (DT) 1950-1963
Merlin Olsen (DT) 1962-1976
Alan Page (DT) 1967-1981
John Randle 1990-2003
Warren Sapp 1995-2007
Ernie Stautner (DT) 1950-1963
Arnie Weinmeister (DT) 1948-1953
Randy White (DT) 1975-1988
Reggie White (DT-DE) 1985-1998, 2000

I would argue against Reggie White being included on the list as he only played there for about a year total. None of those players were nose tackles in an era close to this one. All of them were smaller than what you are advocating. Of course you may be thinking of players that are not actual hall of famers.
 

hawkfan68

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Can you come up with a name of any Nose Tackle that is in the Hall Of Fame?

Here are the actual hall of famers that played DT:

Junious Buchanan (DT) 1963-1975
Curley Culp 1968-1981
Art Donovan (DT) 1950-1961
Joe Greene (DT) 1969-1981
Dan Hampton (DT-DE) 1979-1990
Henry Jordan (DT) 1957-1969
Cortez Kennedy (DT) 1990-2000
Bob Lilly (DT) 1961-1974
Leo Nomellini (DT) 1950-1963
Merlin Olsen (DT) 1962-1976
Alan Page (DT) 1967-1981
John Randle 1990-2003
Warren Sapp 1995-2007
Ernie Stautner (DT) 1950-1963
Arnie Weinmeister (DT) 1948-1953
Randy White (DT) 1975-1988
Reggie White (DT-DE) 1985-1998, 2000

I would argue against Reggie White being included on the list as he only played there for about a year total. None of those players were nose tackles in an era close to this one. All of them were smaller than what you are advocating. Of course you may be thinking of players that are not actual hall of famers.
These guys aren't HOFs (some may still get in) but they did have good to great careers at NT (325+ pds)-

Jerry Ball - 330pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BallJe00.htm

Albert Haynesworth - 335pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HaynAl20.htm

BJ Raji - 334pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RajiBJ99.htm

Haloti Ngata - 340pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NgatHa20.htm

Ted Washington - 365pds (Not sure why he hasn't made it in HOF yet) - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WashTe01.htm.

Vince Wilfork - 325pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilfVi20.htm

Shaun Rogers - 350pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RogeSh99.htm

Jamal Williams - 348pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillJa99.htm

Snacks Harrison - 350pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrDa03.htm

Casey Hampton - 325pds - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HampCa00.htm
 

Bear-Hawk

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Thanks! Nice to see one person who understands what I am talking about.
 

BASF

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Agreed on this list. As a lover of the position, I'd say only three of those players belong in the hall of fame. But belonging in the hall of fame and actually being hall of fame are two entirely different things.
 

AgentDib

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As I've previously mentioned, Curley Culp was a nose tackle. Alan Page played a little nose tackle.
I checked the weight of all HOF nose tackles a couple weeks ago. I did not keep my notes, and I’m not doing it again unless you are calling me a liar. They average 334.
I certainly don't believe the statistic that you are representing as a fact. Since this is a discussion forum, my initial response pointed that out and explained why I did not believe it. Your responses since then have provided nothing to back up your assertion or rebut my points, so I remain completely unconvinced. It's not a big deal, people are mistaken about all kinds of things and you're welcome to maintain whatever opinion you want.
 

Bear-Hawk

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As I've previously mentioned, Curley Culp was a nose tackle. Alan Page played a little nose tackle.

I certainly don't believe the statistic that you are representing as a fact. Since this is a discussion forum, my initial response pointed that out and explained why I did not believe it. Your responses since then have provided nothing to back up your assertion or rebut my points, so I remain completely unconvinced. It's not a big deal, people are mistaken about all kinds of things and you're welcome to maintain whatever opinion you want.
Likewise sir. The only difference is that I did the research on this and you did not. If I have some time next week, I might redo it and show it to you. The Hawkfan68 post above is pretty accurate, as best I recall.
 

Sun Tzu

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You understand that 3-tech and nose tackle are different positions. The topic is NT. I checked the weight of all HOF nose tackles a couple weeks ago. I did not keep my notes, and I’m not doing it again unless you are calling me a liar. They average 334.
I am calling you a liar!
 

Lagartixa

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Likewise sir. The only difference is that I did the research on this and you did not. If I have some time next week, I might redo it and show it to you. The Hawkfan68 post above is pretty accurate, as best I recall.
These guys aren't HOFs (some may still get in) but they did have good to great careers at NT (325+ pds)-

[List snipped]

@Bear-Hawk, why are you pretending @hawkfan68's post supports your point? His list is of players who are NOT in the Hall of Fame.

If "as best [you] recall," the list is what you saw in @hawkfan68's post then your "research" did not show what you previously claimed it did. Specifically, you have said
The average NT weighs 324 and the Hall of Fame NTs average 334. That’s a fact. There are some exceptions, but they are exceptions. It’s a moot point now, because Young reportedly has added enough weight to get up to 320’s.

However, as @hawkfan68 himself said, his list is of players who are NOT in the Hall of Fame.
@CostaRicaHawk presented a list of 19 players, 17 of which are the ones the Pro Football Hall of Fame's web site says are the 17 DTs in the Hall of Fame. The highest weight on that list was 311 pounds, only three of them were over 300, and the average was way below 300.
When the heaviest DT in the Hall of fame had a listed weight of 311 pounds, it's pretty hard to end up with an average weight of 334. Maybe when you calculated the average, you got the number of players wrong and divided by a number that was too small by one or two or something. For example, let's say you took the 17 players listed on the Hall of Fame's web site and added up all their listed weights, but then divided by 15 instead of 17. Then you'd end up with a number higher than the actual average.
But there are no DTs in the Hall of Fame with listed weights above 311 pounds, and only three have weights over 300. So your assertion that it's a "fact" that nose tackles in the Hall of Fame average 334 pounds is false.
I checked whether maybe some players in the Hall of Fame were listed with position "NT" instead of "DT," and that was not the issue. On the Hall of Fame's site, only Klecko is listed as an NT, and he's also among the 17 players listed as DTs. What about players listed as DE/DT? There are three: Dan Hampton, Richard Seymour, and Bryant Young. Their weights are listed as 264, 310, and 317 respectively. Two of them would thus be up near the top end of the list ordered by weights if we add them to @CostaRicaHawk's list, but there's no way to get an average of 334 lbs if the heaviest player on the list has a weight of 317 lbs. I checked the weights @CostaRicaHawk presented, and they appear to check out. Having eliminated those possibilities, I can't come up with any reason you'd get an average weight of 334 for HoF DTs other than if you messed up the calculation. I think you messed up the calculation.
 

bileever

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Slightly off topic, but why was Robert Cooper (UDFA 335 lbs. NT from Florida State) released when Burns was signed? Was he still injured, or was it just that Jonah Tavai and Forrest Merrill were considered better options?
 

BASF

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Slightly off topic, but why was Robert Cooper (UDFA 335 lbs. NT from Florida State) released when Burns was signed? Was he still injured, or was it just that Jonah Tavai and Forrest Merrill were considered better options?
My guess is injured. I was paying attention to him during the videos from rookie camp and OTAs and he was mostly watching the drills and going last and it seemed gingerly.
 

Bear-Hawk

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@Bear-Hawk, why are you pretending @hawkfan68's post supports your point? His list is of players who are NOT in the Hall of Fame.

If "as best [you] recall," the list is what you saw in @hawkfan68's post then your "research" did not show what you previously claimed it did. Specifically, you have said


However, as @hawkfan68 himself said, his list is of players who are NOT in the Hall of Fame.
@CostaRicaHawk presented a list of 19 players, 17 of which are the ones the Pro Football Hall of Fame's web site says are the 17 DTs in the Hall of Fame. The highest weight on that list was 311 pounds, only three of them were over 300, and the average was way below 300.
When the heaviest DT in the Hall of fame had a listed weight of 311 pounds, it's pretty hard to end up with an average weight of 334. Maybe when you calculated the average, you got the number of players wrong and divided by a number that was too small by one or two or something. For example, let's say you took the 17 players listed on the Hall of Fame's web site and added up all their listed weights, but then divided by 15 instead of 17. Then you'd end up with a number higher than the actual average.
But there are no DTs in the Hall of Fame with listed weights above 311 pounds, and only three have weights over 300. So your assertion that it's a "fact" that nose tackles in the Hall of Fame average 334 pounds is false.
I checked whether maybe some players in the Hall of Fame were listed with position "NT" instead of "DT," and that was not the issue. On the Hall of Fame's site, only Klecko is listed as an NT, and he's also among the 17 players listed as DTs. What about players listed as DE/DT? There are three: Dan Hampton, Richard Seymour, and Bryant Young. Their weights are listed as 264, 310, and 317 respectively. Two of them would thus be up near the top end of the list ordered by weights if we add them to @CostaRicaHawk's list, but there's no way to get an average of 334 lbs if the heaviest player on the list has a weight of 317 lbs. I checked the weights @CostaRicaHawk presented, and they appear to check out. Having eliminated those possibilities, I can't come up with any reason you'd get an average weight of 334 for HoF DTs other than if you messed up the calculation. I think you messed up the calculation.
You are correct. I was wrong about Hall of Fame. However, I agree with Hawkfan68 list of best nose tackles of the modern era, and I would wager that, if we did a list of top-10 true nose tackles over the last 20 years, it would include most of his list and would average 330+

I updated my research on current NFL starting nose tackles.

Here are all teams that played 3-4 defense in 2022 and the weight of their projected starting nose tackle in 2023, according to the depth charts at Ourlads.com

Packers – Slaton 330
Rams – Brown 324
Chargers – Joseph –Day 310
Seahawks – Mone 345
Ravens – Pierce 345
Falcons – Onyemata 300
Giants – Lawrence 342
Vikings – Tonga 338
Dolphins – Davis 335
Buccaneers – Vea 347
Broncos - Jones 305
Patriots – Godchaux 311
Titans – Tart 304
Jaguars – Hamilton 335
Cardinals – Fotu 334

They average 327 pounds. I have done this research twice now.
 
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morgulon1

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I would be interested in your research. The site I am looking at I only saw 17 DT and 3 DT/DE. Looked at all of them and there was only 3 above 300#'s.

https://www.profootballhof.com/players/?pg=1&position=DT
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_DT.htm
Anywhere from 245 to 305? Where you getting your info?

Edited for adding another link. Will post names and weight when I get a chance. Not even close to an average of 300 LBS for HOF. More like 268 lbs

HOF DT
Kevin Williams 311
Cortez Kennedy 305
Warren Sapp 303
Bryant Young 291
John Randle 290
Joe Greene 275
Buck Buchanon 270
Merlin Olson 270
Curly Culp 265
Joe Klecko 264
Art Donovan 263
Bob Lilly 260
Leo Nomellini 259
Randy White 257
Henry Jordan 248
Alex Karras 248
Alan Page 245
Arnie Weinmeister 235
Ernie Stautner 230

Where are the 334 Lb guys?????
But notice a lot of the "lighter" guys are from a different era? In the 50s and 60s
a 250 lb lineman was a huge guy.

I personally don't think a NT has to be 330 ..if it's the right guy. I. Sure John Randle would do well in today's NFL.
 

Bear-Hawk

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But notice a lot of the "lighter" guys are from a different era? In the 50s and 60s
a 250 lb lineman was a huge guy.

I personally don't think a NT has to be 330 ..if it's the right guy. I. Sure John Randle would do well in today's NFL.
I have said multiple times that the lighter guys can compensate somewhat with technique, agility, strength, etc. Nonetheless, weight is an advantage at nose tackle and that’s why 2/3 of them are 320-350.
 
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toffee

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Any news or progress reports on our young guys? Mike Morris, Derrick Hall, Cam Young, Jonah Tavai? DL remains one of our challenges, I am sure hoping for positive news.
 
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toffee

toffee

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DEJarran ReedMike MorrisJonah Tavai, Jordan Ferguson
NTCameroon YoungMone *injured
DEDre'Mont JonesMyles AdamsM.J. Anderson, Ifeanyi Maijeh
OLBBoye MafeTaylor Vi JonesCam Bright
MLBBobby WagnerNick BelloreJoshua OnujioguMichael Ayers
MLBDevin BushJordyn BrooksJon RhattiganRobert Barnes
OLBUchenna Nwosu
Derick Hall
Tyreka SmithPatrick O’Connell

Not sure if I am missing something, but we only have one big body nose in Cam Young?
 

SoulfishHawk

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The team is, on paper, incredibly soft in the middle. No disrespect to Young, but expecting a 4th round rookie to anchor that position seems incredibly bold, and potentially short sighted by the front office.

Inside linebacker also looks very weak on paper. Love Bobby, but let's be honest. He's lost a couple steps, and Bush isn't much better than Barton.

OLB looks strong, and the ends look great. But the middle is a huge concern right now for me.
The game isn't played on paper.
 

CalgaryFan05

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Young and Cooper are not nose tackles. I would sign Linval Joseph to a one-year contract. He would be better than anyone we have now. If not, then go to 4-3 and just admit we don’t have the personnel to play 3-4.
I'm not sure WHO wants us to play 3-4.

I certainly don't.

Scrap that shit and get back to what we know.
 

bileever

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I haven't heard any news about our D-line, but apparently, unless you're the 49ers or the Eagles, everyone seems to be worried about their D-line, specifically the interior line. Maybe the world has just run out of nose tackles?

As much as we've fretted over not having a true nose tackle to play in the middle of the 3-4, maybe we shouldn't worry that much. We don't play a straight 3-4, and there are plenty of times when it's a hybrid that resembles the 4-3 we've always played. Also, with everyone in the NFL using the outside zone run scheme, does the nose tackle, even in a 3-4, as important as it used to be?

The Denver Broncos had a pretty good defense last year (playing a 3-4) with only one defensive lineman weighing over 320 pounds, and that was 32-year-old Mike Purcell (528 snaps), who last played for the Salt Lake Stallions of the Alliance of American Football before signing with the Broncos. The other nose tackle they have is DJ Jones, who is 6' 0" and 300 lbs (560 snaps). They beat the 49ers last year, with the 49ers only scoring 10 points.
 
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toffee

toffee

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4-3 does look better? But still need DTs?
DEMike MorrisJonah TavaiTyreka SmithPatrickj O'Connell
DTJarran Reed Jordan Ferguson
DTCameroon YoungMone *injured
DEDre'Mont JonesMyles AdamsM.J. Anderson, Ifeanyi Maijeh
OLBBoye MafeDerick HallJoshua Onujiogu Vi Jones
MLBBobby WagnerDevin Smith Nick BelloreMichael Ayers
OLBUchenna NwosuDarrell Taylor Jon RhattiganJordyn Brooks (injured)
 

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