Top Tier QBs…”Pass” on Seattle?

JayhawkMike

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I could see a good QB being reluctant to come here.

1. ignoring the O Line forever until after chasing your star QB out of town.
2. not letting your QB play offense for 2-3 quarters a game then putting all the pressure on them to win in the end.
3. a coach that is hopefully taking his gold watch and leaving soon who is stale on ideas but loves to enforce those same stale idaes on his OCs.

on the other hand
1. good to great players at WR and TE and maybe good at RB
2. laughable competition from the current QBs on the roster So guaranteed starting role.
3. PC still being around means extremely low expectations for success so any on field success is greatly magnified. especially in the post season.

personally I want PC far far down the road when we draft a new QB so as not to ruin them.
 

Lagartixa

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What top QB is available that we're concerned about? I think our next top QB will probably be next years top draft pick (barring a very surprising performance from Geno or Drew)....and any of them should be THRILLED to be drafted by the Seahawks. Look what happened to the last QB on a rookie contract that the Seahawks drafted.

Alex McGough? Maybe not the best example.
 

KinesProf

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I feel like there are two parallels discussions going on here.

Are we talking about the late career "choose your destination" examples such as Brady, Peyton etc? As those examples are rare, and shouldn't be in the Hawks plans anyway.

Or are we talking about the way guys like Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert etc are attained? Show up, play great and make the team better.
 

toffee

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I could see a good QB being reluctant to come here.

1. ignoring the O Line forever until after chasing your star QB out of town.
Begging your pardon, our OL provided 2.4 seconds of pocket time for the enjoyment of our QB, which is more than these QBs received from their OL:

Big Ben (2.1 sec pocket time, 18.6% pressure)
Rodgers (2.2 sec, 22.3%)
Brady (2.3 sec, 11.1%)
Mahome (2.3 sec, 22.1%) *APC Championship
Burrow (2.3 sec, 24.5%) *superbowl
Murray (2.3 sec, 20,7%)
JimmyG (2.3sec, 18.7%) * NFC Championship
Stafford (2.4 sec, 16.7%) *superbowl champ.

Our OL no doubt looked bad and suffered from VERY HIGH QB pressure (27%), but hey, what can the OL do when our franchise QB loved to hold the ball? BUT, Wilson enjoyed more pocket time than most playoff and superbowl QBs.

 

scutterhawk

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I could see a good QB being reluctant to come here.

1. ignoring the O Line forever until after chasing your star QB out of town.
2. not letting your QB play offense for 2-3 quarters a game then putting all the pressure on them to win in the end.
3. a coach that is hopefully taking his gold watch and leaving soon who is stale on ideas but loves to enforce those same stale idaes on his OCs.

on the other hand
1. good to great players at WR and TE and maybe good at RB
2. laughable competition from the current QBs on the roster So guaranteed starting role.
3. PC still being around means extremely low expectations for success so any on field success is greatly magnified. especially in the post season.

personally I want PC far far down the road when we draft a new QB so as not to ruin them.
You insinuate that PC has "Ruined" Wilson's chances at a Gold Jacket BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Do you even realize how ABSURD that sounds???
This CRAP about Carroll not wanting Wilson to SCORE for the first 3 quarters is also A-B-S-U-R-D
Wilson made a habit of running himself OUT OF PROTECTION, even when he DIDN'T HAVE TO.
'Defensive Minded' PC & John BUILT an all-World Defense + 'BEASTMODE', then Drafted Russell Wilson, who WAS quick enough, had the jets & ESCAPE-ABILITIES, that have WANED over the last couple of years.
But it was PETE who Coached the Seahawks to two back-to-back Championships & a LOMBARDI.
OH AND, without Pete's LOB & all-World Defense, that 43 to 8 against Peyton Manning would NOT have happened, just sayin'
 

Spin Doctor

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You insinuate that PC has "Ruined" Wilson's chances at a Gold Jacket BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Do you even realize how ABSURD that sounds???
This CRAP about Carroll not wanting Wilson to SCORE for the first 3 quarters is also A-B-S-U-R-D
Wilson made a habit of running himself OUT OF PROTECTION, even when he DIDN'T HAVE TO.
'Defensive Minded' PC & John BUILT an all-World Defense + 'BEASTMODE', then Drafted Russell Wilson, who WAS quick enough, had the jets & ESCAPE-ABILITIES, that have WANED over the last couple of years.
But it was PETE who Coached the Seahawks to two back-to-back Championships & a LOMBARDI.
OH AND, without Pete's LOB & all-World Defense, that 43 to 8 against Peyton Manning would NOT have happened, just sayin'
Wilson had some issues here for sure. He struggled on short passes, accuracy was all over the place here and he was awful at pocket management. His internal clock wasn't very good -- he never had to develop that ability due to his scrambling.

My question is, how well is he going to look under an offensive minded OC? I think Carroll was great for Wilson during the start of his career. Later in his career though? I'm not so sure about that. 2015 and onwards, especially in the playoffs there always seemed to be a leash on him.

I think seeing him underneath an offensive minded OC will tell us a lot. I'm very curious to see how he's going to do in Denver being guided by Nathaniel Hackett. Carroll has his strengths, but certainly his offense has always been a point of contention, even dating back to his USC days. The trend continued with guys such as Bates, Bevell and Schottenheimer calling the plays -- guys that were known for being mediocre.
 

toffee

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Welcome to Denver and let's ride the Bronco OL that allow Teddy to suffer more QB pressure than Russell, more hurries, more blitz. Their OL and ours sounded really similar LMAO.
GCmpAtt%YdsSacksPocket timeBltzHrryHitsPrssPress%ScrmYds/Scr
Teddy Bridgewater1428542666.90%3052312.5118644213729.00%156.6
Russell Wilson*1425940064.75%3113332.4113484212327.00%237.3
 
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FattyKnuckle

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Absolutely this^^
Pete & John will find a Quarterback (likely in the '23' Draft) who reeks with confidence, but not an arrogant 'Me First' guy & is eager to build his OWN following.
Russ has earned his fan following, but many of those fans will UNREASONABLY compare his play with whoever Seattle brings in, pretty much in the same way that the new RB's have to pass the Warner, Waters, Alexander, Lynch, Carson & Penny comparisons.
Some fans are just 'Hard Wired' to lay the blame on anyone BUT their Chosen guy.
Penny? He's had half a good season's worth of play. I'd hardly put him in any list of legacy Seattle RBs.
 

scutterhawk

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Penny? He's had half a good season's worth of play. I'd hardly put him in any list of legacy Seattle RBs.
Almost from the get-go, Penny had never really had the time to mend that he needed, so getting thrust into duty when you're almost but not quite there really put the kibosh to his numbers.
He said last year that he was finally feeling at his peak, though I do understand and agree with you, in that he's likely used up his last 'Owie' mulligan.
I had to add his name on the list for his amazing performances going down the stretch last season.
Crossing the fingers on him picking up from where he left off last year, eh?
 

Spin Doctor

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Almost from the get-go, Penny had never really had the time to mend that he needed, so getting thrust into duty when you're almost but not quite there really put the kibosh to his numbers.
He said last year that he was finally feeling at his peak, though I do understand and agree with you, in that he's likely used up his last 'Owie' mulligan.
I had to add his name on the list for his amazing performances going down the stretch last season.
Crossing the fingers on him picking up from where he left off last year, eh?
Penny also routinely came into training camp overweight and he even said himself that he didn't put the work in necessary to succeed. Even this season he came in overweight and was being outplayed by the likes of Collin's in training camp and preseason.

Penny didn't have the right mentality until Peterson knocked him over the head. Even still the guy still is not great up the gut and has some vision issues. He plays much smaller than his size indicates. I don't think Penny is going to be our guy come seasons end, I think Walker is ultimately going to claim his spot.
 

samwize77

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Top tier QB implies the QB has already been in the league and established himself as "top tier".
I think the idea of paying a "top tier" QB is NOT on Seattle's radar. So its probably over before it even begins. I don't think the current FO would ever pay, or offer to pay, as much of their cap space as current contracts are paying.

Now...having said that. I would think the winning environment in Seattle, the current roster, and IF the offer was in line with other offers from other teams....sure, I would think Seattle would be an option for any elite talent to consider. How many of our past players have decided to set roots here also?...quite a few I would think. KJ being the most recent.

I don't think Seattle is a destination that is "looked down on" by anyone. Its just mostly, as anything else.....all about the money.
 

Ad Hawk

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I don't think Seattle is a destination that is "looked down on" by anyone. Its just mostly, as anything else.....all about the money.

It is only "looked down on" by a few so-called fans. Players seem to have a positive view of the team and coaching staff.
 

jammerhawk

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It is only "looked down on" by a few so-called fans. Players seem to have a positive view of the team and coaching staff.
How true, and it’s the same APer voices again and again who’s real agenda is their pathological dislike for all things Pete Carroll. That of course is their right, but they rarely acknowledge any positive, or suggest his replacement or offer constructive options.

Lots of quality players want to play in Seattle. The team has excellent facilities, is well funded and has had a consistent record of above average success since the Allan family rescued the team from Behring.
 

FattyKnuckle

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It is only "looked down on" by a few so-called fans. Players seem to have a positive view of the team and coaching staff.
Well, most players. A lot of our generationally great defense left pretty bitter but that was a very unique situation from which that dislike arose.
 

toffee

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How true, and it’s the same APer voices again and again who’s real agenda is their pathological dislike for all things Pete Carroll. That of course is their right, but they rarely acknowledge any positive, or suggest his replacement or offer constructive options.

Nailed it Jammerhawk!! I was advocating for a Pete replacement, because of how he kowtow to Russ, I called it behavior unbefitting of a head coach. I did struggled with naming Pete's replacement. Now that Russ is gone, I am hoping that Pete learned his lesson and I have faith in his rebuilding prowess. Pete rebuilt USC program, and the Hawks too.
 

keasley45

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Begging your pardon, our OL provided 2.4 seconds of pocket time for the enjoyment of our QB, which is more than these QBs received from their OL:

Big Ben (2.1 sec pocket time, 18.6% pressure)
Rodgers (2.2 sec, 22.3%)
Brady (2.3 sec, 11.1%)
Mahome (2.3 sec, 22.1%) *APC Championship
Burrow (2.3 sec, 24.5%) *superbowl
Murray (2.3 sec, 20,7%)
JimmyG (2.3sec, 18.7%) * NFC Championship
Stafford (2.4 sec, 16.7%) *superbowl champ.

Our OL no doubt looked bad and suffered from VERY HIGH QB pressure (27%), but hey, what can the OL do when our franchise QB loved to hold the ball? BUT, Wilson enjoyed more pocket time than most playoff and superbowl QBs.



There was a segment on Wyman and Bob recently where they talked about how unfairly our line has been critiqued over the years.

They brought up one key point many miss - that if you run an offense where the pass rushers know 99% of the time where the qb is going to drop to, an O line will struggle mightily to pass protect.

Russ has one of the deepest drops in the league, whether from shotgun or less common snaps from under center. We didn't run 3 step or even 5 step concepts much because we couldn't due to his height. Snaps from under center were often play action. And Russ HAD to rely on passing lanes even more to make basic throws over the line.

So picture, on 95% of passing downs, where with other qbs, a LB or DE is trying to predict where a qb is going to be when the ball comes out, or an interior lineman is hesitating slightly to get his maybe stop a rush and get his hands up to bat a ball, with us, they'd have the luxury of pretty consistently rushing to a spot 7 to 10 yards behind the LOS on most every passing play. Our interior O Line had to pass pro against basically a bull rush without mercy on every single pass play. Our tackles had to drop fast and try to maintain leverage against rushers not needing to hesitate even for a moment. Pass pro is already hard. Giving every advantage to the D line on every snap, makes it harder.

And yes, his stature also accounted for a lot of the reason for him holding onto the ball. Russ had to wait for guys to come clean from the mass of bodies in front of him for shallower routes. But that time was reduced significantly by the advantage given the D in knowing where he'd be pretty much every single drop.

There was zero mystery there. Nothing to throw rushers off.

Same goes for the screen game. Ever notice how last year when Geno was in, we were successful running screens?

Think about the concept of a screen - inviting defenders into frame, deep in the backfield to allow your rb room to get the ball, and head up field. By default, our screens were deep + the standard drop Russ already required. And running screens from under center only, pretty much telegraphed the play. Plus, there was no hesitation at thr snap by defenders trying to figure out whether the pass was coming out quick, or whether it be from a deep pocket. They were always going to thr spot a qb would retreat to in a typical screen scenario. With Russ, the play was neutered.

And roll outs? There's a reason we didn't run them often, when we had 3 OCs to try and help Russ get on track - I'd wager it likely had to do with the fact that that majority of the time, our qb was playing on only 2/3rds of the field ( not often throwing to the middle unless on a hook or dig against a zone) . A roll out, while moving the pocket, also then would reduce Russ's options to just 1/ 3rd of the field. A qb who is taller might lose the opposite side of the field with a rollout. A shorter qb with difficulty hitting routes over the middle already and who had a tendency to hold the ball... the field just gets too small too fast. Russ would lose his biggest asset in a rolling pocket ... The ability to escape to either side.

Now that doesn't excuse all of the poor play, but every line we've had here has been handcuffed a bit by the type of play necessitated by the qb.

And that's not all just my conjecture. The majority of it came from a retired player or coach who was questioned about our o line play over the years. He had no gripe with Russ. Was just speaking football fact.
 
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