The myth of stopping Lynch

Jacknut16

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v1rotv2":2ao1j7lp said:
The greatest evidence that stopping Lynch is a fool's errand was Super Bowl 48. The Broncos put so much of their resources in stopping him, Wilson was able to beat the hell out of them passing the ball. And now it looks like the Hawk offense will be even better passing the ball. That in itself will bode well for the ground game. Once teams figure out that RW will be tearing them up with his arm the ground game should be even more effective.

Agreed-

Wilson was also able to get the edge on a few key plays, and so was Harvin on the two runs.

The sell out to stop Lynch opened things up for Wilson big time, the Broncos were probably hoping for a shoot out and could not have imagined that we would dominate them so badly on defense.

The third down conversions were just a massive advantage for keeping Hawks drives alive as well.

Wilsons ability to buy time, throw on the run, scramble for yardage combined with the read option at times, and a weapon like Harvin is going to be pretty nasty to defend.
 

Jacknut16

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brimsalabim":2sl6jwtu said:
Scottemojo":2sl6jwtu said:
SalishHawkFan":2sl6jwtu said:
And the home loss to Arizona. I thought Arizona did an incredible job of shutting down Lynch, once again a lot of his yards came on a couple of runs. Less than 4ypa. That was one of the games where I thought the DC killed our play action game by blitzing the two inside zone gaps all day long, they either caught Lynch or got after WIison with that attack a number of times and in the running theme of all the games with low point totals, controlled the Seattle offense on third down.

.

How about Harvin in the flat when they try that again?

Harvin will help big time in games like this, hence why its so important he stay healthy. Especially with Tate gone.
 

bowzerbird

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Hey, they can "MYTH" all they want. But something iths "Mything" here. All they are doing is speculating: how many have actually played thee game.
The Hawks are thee must creative, intuitive, inventive TEAM players in the entire league of FB. Their strategies are continuously changing which IZ what makes them great, formidable and very dangerous.
True, Marsh seems to most often go straight for the pile, but when it counts, when the third down comes, Marsh & Russell always SOOPRIZE everyone with a different strategy and get either a TD or first down.

The Seahawks have created a NEW PARADIGM for HOW FB is and will be played in the future. And second guessing HOW THEY play will be the fall of every team that comes against them.

They can win the next SUPER BOWL. Mark my words.

HAWKS RULE • • • everyone else droolzzzzz.

Ellen
 

NYCoug

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bowzerbird":22rnz033 said:
Hey, they can "MYTH" all they want. But something iths "Mything" here. All they are doing is speculating: how many have actually played thee game.
The Hawks are thee must creative, intuitive, inventive TEAM players in the entire league of FB. Their strategies are continuously changing which IZ what makes them great, formidable and very dangerous.
True, Marsh seems to most often go straight for the pile, but when it counts, when the third down comes, Marsh & Russell always SOOPRIZE everyone with a different strategy and get either a TD or first down.

The Seahawks have created a NEW PARADIGM for HOW FB is and will be played in the future. And second guessing HOW THEY play will be the fall of every team that comes against them.

They can win the next SUPER BOWL. Mark my words.

HAWKS RULE • • • everyone else droolzzzzz.

Ellen

My favorite post in a long time. I like your style, bowzer. I'm rolling with you on this one.

And not only can they win the next SUPER BOWL, but they will!
 

ivotuk

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Scottemojo":2whikipr said:
ivotuk":2whikipr said:
Fabulous post, and great argument, for both sides. I can't come down on one side or the other but lean towards "the fallacy ofstopping Lynch."

But I think what this debate really shows, it's that no matter what defenses focus on, Russell Wilson will take advantage of.

In his rookie year the Chicago game was his "coming of age" game, but he had a second one last year in Houston. To me, Marshawn telling Russell "just take the game over Russ" says that Pete was still holding him back, and like a good little soldier, RW was following orders. But Lynch, in his wisdom knew what direction the team needed to go, and that was for there QB to lead, and everyone else to follow.

Russell is becoming a complete QB and team leader. It's amazing to think that this is only his third year and that he will only get better.
Oh, I don't doubt that Wilson is by far the most dangerous weapon on this team. I just don't think rushing yards really tell the story.

That statement is absolute as it refers to this team because of the yards that Russell puts up. I always hated it when people bragged up Jim Mora and Greg Knapp's #1 Rushing team in Atlanta" because a lot of those yards came from Michael Vick.

Rushing yards are based on the line opening holes for the running back, and on the running back either hitting those holes, or being stout enough (like Marshawn) to break tackles in the back field and get yards anyway. IIRC, #24 had the most yards after contact of any other back in 2013, which was a crap year for the Seahawks line run blocking.

And that's one of the reasons why it is hard to make any concrete statement about the Seahawks running game. Whether or not opposing teams "focused" on stopping it is hard to tell because we were so miserable at blocking for anybody last year. It still amazes me that we won the SuperB Owl. But that was all Marshawn and Russell, and the #1 defense.

That is one of the reasons that I'm excited about this year. Just think, with more weapons at wide receiver, add Christine Michael at running back, AND having a line that can actually block? A line that won't let our once-in-a-lifetime Quarterback get destroyed. A line that will allow Marshawn to really have a career year?

Lynch had 1204 yards in 2011, 1590 yards in 2012, and last year, with a crap line had 1257 yards and 12 TDS! That's his 2nd highest career year in yards, and matches his highest in TDs. And as we saw last year, Percy Harvin makes it harder for them to put 8 in the box.

So I've gotten a little off track here, but there's going to be too much for opposing defenses to focus on this year that they won't be able to game plan against any one thing. 8 in the box won't work, extra DBs won't work, whatever they do, it won't work, because Russell will find their weak spot.

The only thing I worry about, is the same thing that Drew Brees has to worry about, pressure up the middle. Here's to Carpenter, Unger and Sweezy staying healthy all year.
 

HawkWow

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Scottemojo":zgfpvba4 said:
SalishHawkFan":zgfpvba4 said:
Every week during the season opposing fans post the same thing: the key to beating us is to stop Lynch and make Wilson beat us. Slightly more informed fans think that they need to also contain Wilson and force him to throw in the pocket. Week in, week out, these are the "keys" to beating the Hawks.

History says otherwise.

In our three losses in 2013, Lynch ran for 102, 71 and 72 yards. In those three losses, however, Wilson had three of his 5 worst games. His second worst game was the OT win vs Texas. Lynch ran for 98 yds in that game.

Going back to 2012, in our five losses, Lynch ran for 85, 119, 103,105 and 46. In those five losses, Wilson's rating was 62, 45, 38, 97 and 128. 4 of his 5 worst ratings of the year.

The one time in 8 losses that the Hawks saw Lynch get held to low yardage and Wilson have a great game was 2012 vs Miami. The other 7 games, Lynch had 71 yards or more, breaking 100 yards 4 times and the team lost anyways because Wilson had a crappy game. The sole exception being vs Detroit, where Lynch had a great game and Wilson wasn't too shabby either, but they lost anyways because the defense took the day off.

Let's look at Lynch's worst games over the past two years:

Lynch's 5 worst games rushing in 2013 all resulted in wins for Seattle. Two squeakers against Carolina and St. Louis, the other three were all blowouts. Wilson had over 100 rating in 4 of those 5 games and an 86 in the other one.

Lynch was only held to less than 85 yards rushing twice in 2012. We won one game and lost the other. One of those games was the NE game where Wilson carried the team, the other was the aforementioned Miami game where both Lynch and Wilson had an off day.

Teams that focus on stopping Lynch are going to lose. Stopping Lynch only opens up the game for Wilson to romp over you. Teams that let Lynch have a big day but put the screws on Wilson and force him into having a bad day are the only teams that will beat the Seahawks. When an opposing fan says the keys to beating the Hawks are to stop Lynch, you can stop reading right there. They don't know what they're talking about. The only way to beat the Hawks is to force our "game manager" QB to have an off day.

History doesn't lie.
I appreciate the effort that goes into a post like this.
I also disagree, to an extent. I think total yards are a below average way to measure impact. For instance, TOm Brady threw for over 400 vs the LOB in 2012, but his YPA and total points scored in that game say he had a below average game.
Vs Houston, Lynch had 98. Most of those yards came on 3 runs. For most of the game, Houston controlled the run game and put Seattle into 3rd and long. The scoreboard reflected that, in regulation the offense managed 13 points and struggled to convert third downs.
Vs Carolina, Lynch was shut down, and WIlson had 300. To the tune of 14 total points. If I am a defense, I call that a win. Holding a 300 yard passer to 14 points is not a failure.
At STL, both struggled to do anything, more than half the total yards came on one play, and if not for a short field after a turnover by STL, that game is a loss. 14 total points again.
At the NIners, true enough, Lynch got over 70 yards. but was well under 4 yards a carry, and most important, the Hawks still struggled to get into manageable third downs. Once again, the point total of 17 says that any yardage total by Lynch or Wilson was ineffective.
The Giants did a great job of stopping Lynch. And controlled Wilson. Their defense was tough, but was put in bad situations by Eli all day.

And the home loss to Arizona. I thought Arizona did an incredible job of shutting down Lynch, once again a lot of his yards came on a couple of runs. Less than 4ypa. That was one of the games where I thought the DC killed our play action game by blitzing the two inside zone gaps all day long, they either caught Lynch or got after WIison with that attack a number of times and in the running theme of all the games with low point totals, controlled the Seattle offense on third down.

Stopping the running attack first is not a bad strategy for keeping Seattle out of the endzone, or at least has not been up to now. Do I think we are better equipped to handle that strategy now? For sure. But it doesn't mean it hasn't worked against us before.

To me, the commonality in many of the games where the offense struggled was not control of either Lynch or Wilson. It was an inability if our offensive line to control the LOS in short yardage.

"Stopping the running attack first is not a bad strategy for keeping Seattle out of the endzone".

Riveting commentary. How many teams can you name that do not emphasize stopping the running game of their opponent?
 

Scottemojo

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HawkWow":2xivmhat said:
Scottemojo":2xivmhat said:
SalishHawkFan":2xivmhat said:
Every week during the season opposing fans post the same thing: the key to beating us is to stop Lynch and make Wilson beat us. Slightly more informed fans think that they need to also contain Wilson and force him to throw in the pocket. Week in, week out, these are the "keys" to beating the Hawks.

History says otherwise.

In our three losses in 2013, Lynch ran for 102, 71 and 72 yards. In those three losses, however, Wilson had three of his 5 worst games. His second worst game was the OT win vs Texas. Lynch ran for 98 yds in that game.

Going back to 2012, in our five losses, Lynch ran for 85, 119, 103,105 and 46. In those five losses, Wilson's rating was 62, 45, 38, 97 and 128. 4 of his 5 worst ratings of the year.

The one time in 8 losses that the Hawks saw Lynch get held to low yardage and Wilson have a great game was 2012 vs Miami. The other 7 games, Lynch had 71 yards or more, breaking 100 yards 4 times and the team lost anyways because Wilson had a crappy game. The sole exception being vs Detroit, where Lynch had a great game and Wilson wasn't too shabby either, but they lost anyways because the defense took the day off.

Let's look at Lynch's worst games over the past two years:

Lynch's 5 worst games rushing in 2013 all resulted in wins for Seattle. Two squeakers against Carolina and St. Louis, the other three were all blowouts. Wilson had over 100 rating in 4 of those 5 games and an 86 in the other one.

Lynch was only held to less than 85 yards rushing twice in 2012. We won one game and lost the other. One of those games was the NE game where Wilson carried the team, the other was the aforementioned Miami game where both Lynch and Wilson had an off day.

Teams that focus on stopping Lynch are going to lose. Stopping Lynch only opens up the game for Wilson to romp over you. Teams that let Lynch have a big day but put the screws on Wilson and force him into having a bad day are the only teams that will beat the Seahawks. When an opposing fan says the keys to beating the Hawks are to stop Lynch, you can stop reading right there. They don't know what they're talking about. The only way to beat the Hawks is to force our "game manager" QB to have an off day.

History doesn't lie.
I appreciate the effort that goes into a post like this.
I also disagree, to an extent. I think total yards are a below average way to measure impact. For instance, TOm Brady threw for over 400 vs the LOB in 2012, but his YPA and total points scored in that game say he had a below average game.
Vs Houston, Lynch had 98. Most of those yards came on 3 runs. For most of the game, Houston controlled the run game and put Seattle into 3rd and long. The scoreboard reflected that, in regulation the offense managed 13 points and struggled to convert third downs.
Vs Carolina, Lynch was shut down, and WIlson had 300. To the tune of 14 total points. If I am a defense, I call that a win. Holding a 300 yard passer to 14 points is not a failure.
At STL, both struggled to do anything, more than half the total yards came on one play, and if not for a short field after a turnover by STL, that game is a loss. 14 total points again.
At the NIners, true enough, Lynch got over 70 yards. but was well under 4 yards a carry, and most important, the Hawks still struggled to get into manageable third downs. Once again, the point total of 17 says that any yardage total by Lynch or Wilson was ineffective.
The Giants did a great job of stopping Lynch. And controlled Wilson. Their defense was tough, but was put in bad situations by Eli all day.

And the home loss to Arizona. I thought Arizona did an incredible job of shutting down Lynch, once again a lot of his yards came on a couple of runs. Less than 4ypa. That was one of the games where I thought the DC killed our play action game by blitzing the two inside zone gaps all day long, they either caught Lynch or got after WIison with that attack a number of times and in the running theme of all the games with low point totals, controlled the Seattle offense on third down.

Stopping the running attack first is not a bad strategy for keeping Seattle out of the endzone, or at least has not been up to now. Do I think we are better equipped to handle that strategy now? For sure. But it doesn't mean it hasn't worked against us before.

To me, the commonality in many of the games where the offense struggled was not control of either Lynch or Wilson. It was an inability if our offensive line to control the LOS in short yardage.

"Stopping the running attack first is not a bad strategy for keeping Seattle out of the endzone".

Riveting commentary. How many teams can you name that do not emphasize stopping the running game of their opponent?
A good point. Off the top of my head, the only teams that I have seen intentionally construct their teams to stop the passing game first were potent offensive teams like Peyton's Indy squads. Even now, most of the really good offensive teams have situational run stoppers, like Terrence Knighton in Denver, Wilfork in New England.

The OP mentions what opposing fans say. I don't care what fans say. Coaches use "stopping the run first" as a euphemistic way of saying they are going to be a physical line of scrimmage team, and it is also coaches verbally saying a goal of getting teams into 2nd and long, 3rd and 6 plus situations. That I totally understand.

If a defense can get a lot of those 3rd and longs,if a team can get it's opponent to just know that on 3rd and 3 or less they better pass, that takes a good bit of the guessing out of calling defense. I can damn near guarantee that any coach saying that about Marshawn Lynch will be saying it about the running back they see the week before us and the week after too. It isn't an underestimation of Wilson, it is simply they way they do their business.
 
OP
OP
SalishHawkFan

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Scottemojo":3qpd32hb said:
A good point. Off the top of my head, the only teams that I have seen intentionally construct their teams to stop the passing game first were potent offensive teams like Peyton's Indy squads. Even now, most of the really good offensive teams have situational run stoppers, like Terrence Knighton in Denver, Wilfork in New England.

The OP mentions what opposing fans say. I don't care what fans say. Coaches use "stopping the run first" as a euphemistic way of saying they are going to be a physical line of scrimmage team, and it is also coaches verbally saying a goal of getting teams into 2nd and long, 3rd and 6 plus situations. That I totally understand.

If a defense can get a lot of those 3rd and longs,if a team can get it's opponent to just know that on 3rd and 3 or less they better pass, that takes a good bit of the guessing out of calling defense. I can damn near guarantee that any coach saying that about Marshawn Lynch will be saying it about the running back they see the week before us and the week after too. It isn't an underestimation of Wilson, it is simply they way they do their business.
I agree with what you say Scotte about coachspeak. And Carolina did get us into a lot of third and longs. And we did pass every time on third and short. The thing is, if they don't stop Wilson, it doesn't matter. If they do stop Lynch, it doesn't matter. That's the point. But yes, it's always better to win the battle in the trenches.

I'm not sure that Denver, with their crappy secondary, intentionally constructed their teams to stop the passing game first. Unless you mean this year when they revamped their secondary? The team I've seen that was built from the secondary up is our own Seattle Seahawks.

Anyways, I know it doesn't matter what opposing fans say, but that was the purpose of this post quite literally, to address a fan myth that we keep seeing being touted out there. That all the opposing team has to do is stop Lynch. Trench wars or no trench wars, 88% of the time it's the team that stopped Wilson that beat us, not the other way around.
 

Scottemojo

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Yeah, you can look through the enemy forums thread every week, even now, and see fans spouting stop Lynch, Wilson can't beat you, yada yada yada. Right now, I can only think of one team that has a bit of that mindset, the Cards. I have an inkling, based only in my head, that Arians doesn't respect the diminutive QB. I know some of his players don't.

Denver is built to stop the pass with pass rush and zone coverage. They were last year too, but the injuries mounted to the pass rushers and a lack of defensive secondary speed was finally exposed in the SB. Ware and Miller are the method this year.

Indy never had a particularly great secondary, but always had a great pass rush. Manning would get them a lead, Freeny would get after the QB, game over. Polian never focused on building that strong of interior lines, his linebackers had a coverage bias to the skill set, and when Manning left they were a half built D.

I do think Wilson is on the cusp of being so good that if our running back corps were all dinged up, he could still carry the team. The fact that Wilson alone is a scary pseudo running back part of the time and there is always the threat of a Percy end around is a nice supplement to the run game no matter how much they focus on stopping Lynch, as the SB showed. Other than offensive line continuity, which I don't know we will get this year or next, a tall pass target who can go up and get those red zone fades is about the only thing missing, and that is not a real big deal.
 

Hawks46

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Cartire":52so3rx0 said:
Largent80":52so3rx0 said:
We kept 7 wr's, seems to me the passing game is going to be more balanced to the run.

They just have to stop us period. Plus people forget about how important special teams are. We have probably the best kicker and coverage units in the league. A healthy Harvin is going to more than likely give us shorter fields.

I only expect see Harvin returning 1 kick a game... :th2thumbs:

Damn, that's a bold statement. You know, they kickoff after FG's as well, right ? :mrgreen:

I like it though !
 
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