The Birth Of A QB Destroyer

[Pandion Haliaetus]

THIS isn't the thread to restate the negative decisions in Bruce Irvin's life. If you feel that need throw up trash talk towards Irvin, please, do so in another thread.

I was just perusing some of the .com photos of mini-camp and off-season and Irvin looks like an absolute monster. He came in looking like a safety and now he actually looks like a linebacker.

It seems as if the Seahawks had a long term plan for Bruce Irvin the moment they drafted him, and I remember many stating that he'll never amount to anything but a one trick pony.

My Theory of Irvin’s Development:

Step 1, Year 1, 2012) Ease Irvin into the league via Raheem Brock role allowing him to focus on what he does best... eating Quarterbacks. And it goes without saying, develop his pass-rushing repertoire and strength.

Step 2, Year 2, 2013) Develop his athleticism, range, instincts, coverage, tackling, and ability to attack the strong-side. What we know about the Seahawks D is that the LEO position takes a special type of player, and also that the SLB plays the line more often than not.

Simply, it wasn’t surprising that the Seahawk’s first free agent signing was Cliff Avril. Carroll knew that Irvin wasn’t ready to become a LEO. In 2012, Clemons was re-signed to a 3 year deal, but in 2013, this off-season, Avril was signed to a 2 year deal. Which leaves me the impression that Irvin’s development was a 3 year plan. With Clemons injured and questionable to return to his elite form, it was almost necessary for them to pick up Avril to stay on course of Irvin’s development.

Which leads us to the switch of Wright from SAM to WILL… IMO plus a lot of hindsight: 1) The Seahawks knew that they weren’t going to re-sign LeRoy Hill, 2) The Seahawks knew that they weren’t going to sign any LB in free agency for that matter, 3) The Seahawks knew that they most likely were not going to draft LBer, at least with their first 6 picks.

Seahawks had a plan all along likely one that was in place before Quinn even took over, they knew they would move Wright to WILL take over for Hill, and they knew they would move Irvin into a part-time SAM role to further his development as an all-around defender. At SAM, Irvin can work on some of the aspects of his game, as I stated above, needed to become an elite LEO without the team having to SUFFER through the GROWING PAINS of Irvin actually playing LEO and losing the effectiveness and importance of the position in their Defense. It’s a win-win situation for Irvin and the team.

Step 3, Year 3, 2014) I assume this will be the year that the Seahawks will finally put Irvin into the LEO role as the primary. Likely, splitting some LEO reps with Avril, whom I see getting most of his snaps in the Brock role and at SAM. Don’t know if Clemons will still be around but I doubt it because the Seahawks need to re-sign a lot of their core players.

For Irvin, he’ll take what he learned in Year 1 and Year 2 and put it altogether in year 3 to become an effective LEO prospect. In my theoretical opinion, he won’t be as developed to be Chris Clemon’s status as an overall complete player however he’ll likely be a better pass rusher.

Step 4, Year 4, 2015) Irvin reaches elite LEO status and becomes a complete player at the position.

SACK LUNCHES THEORIES:

2012, the fact is Irvin led all rookies with 8 sacks merely as a rotational pass rush specialist.

2013, my prediction is in 12 games Irvin will have 10-12 sacks, plus a few more in the post-season if the Seahawks qualify, and he stays healthy.

2014, my prediction is that Irvin will achieve 12-16 sacks on the season if again he stays healthy and plays every game. Plus, a few more in the post-season, yada, yada, yada...

2015, my prediction, which might render me as bonkers, is that Irvin will become the first Seahawks ever to achieve a 20 sack season which likely will win him a DPOY award. A testament to his own hard work as well as the coaching’s understanding of developing players the right way and not throwing them into the fire to either burn into a disaster or haul ass into an incomplete player.

Just think of Irvin now, as cub Simba, his looming suspension the death of Mufasa, his personal demons, professional obstacles hindering his potential and growth as Scar and the hyenas, his love for football as Nala, Dan Quinn is Rafiki, Clemons is Zazu, Avril and Bennett are Timon and Pumbaa. One day cub Simba will grow up, defeat Scar, and he will reign KING.

 

[nIdahoSeahawk]

He's definitely being groomed, and you can see in photos he's already beginning to change. I like your thinking and your optimism, and I hope it plays out that way or better!

 

[fsmassey]

Seems logical. Sweet. :thirishdrinkers:

 

[bubbrubb]

Year 5, 2016) Seahawks Calendar Mr. Janurary ... Mission complete

 

[kearly]

I was maybe Irvin's biggest fan here before that draft. When a topic was brought up many months before that draft (over at the draft forum) asking who everyone thought the #1 pass rusher was, I'm pretty sure I was the only one who named Irvin, and even back then, I felt that it wasn't even a close call. Before that draft I went on the record saying that Irvin and Wilson were the two players I desperately hoped Seattle would walk away with at some point in the draft. Before that season, I predicted Irvin would finish with 8 sacks but have some holes in his game. He played exactly to those expectations.

I do have some remaining concerns for Irvin. One of those was his size, so it's great to see him commit to the offseason routine and get big. Maybe he cheated to get there, who knows, but what matters is that he got there, and I think he deserves credit for the work he put in.

However, my larger concern with Irvin has nothing to do with how much he bulks up. Said plainly, Irvin was not a true pass rusher in college- he was a freak athlete that simply outran and outhustled inferior opponents for production. He had a two-dimensional pass rush repertoire, and one of those two elements (his bull rush) has been completely ineffective in the NFL. He also completely lacks natural talent and instincts. He's more of an athlete than a "football player." And I don't know how to say this without sounding mean, but he doesn't appear terribly bright in interviews (neither did Aaron Curry, and we saw how much he struggled to learn).

Right now Irvin just doesn't have those linebacker type instincts about knowing how to take on contact or wriggle around blocks. He's kind of the opposite of Clemons, who wins through excellent technique and instincts. Something tells me that Irvin will never get it, and if that gut instinct is right, then the question becomes if he can still be a useful player despite being 1-dimensional. Normally I'd say no, but this new spinner wrinkle from Dan Quinn really has me interested. Irvin struggles to get off blocks, but he's a pretty good stunt blitzer. The spinner role will put him in a position of strength instead of weakness.

This is a huge year for Irvin, because if the spinner idea doesn't pan out, he'll have to learn his craft to be productive. Very few college DEs can pull that off- pass rushers are really rare in the NFL and most of them were not coach up jobs, and of those coach up jobs few were as undeveloped as Irvin.

I do think this spinner wrinkle will work for Irvin, but until we know for sure, it's going to be a very interesting season for him.

 

[SE174]

I don't know how to say this without sounding mean, but he doesn't appear terribly bright in interviews

I'm sure dropping out of HS and taking a lot of drugs had something to do with that. He's our Bobby Boucher.

[youtube]nfHOQAT0-Mk[/youtube]

 

[bestfightstory]

Sorry, but I echo much of kearly's analysis.

I surely dont think he will be a capable player vs the run OR in pass coverage this year (if ever).

And, frankly, I am not convinced he will be an asset as a pass rusher-UNLESS-he is surrounded by other pass rushing threats. Multiple ones. In which case, I think he could be a dynamic Weapon X kind of wild card.

Just have not been impressed.

Sure hope that changes this year.

But 15 to 20 sacks in a season for this guy? I would bet against that. And give good odds. Hope you're right.

 

[the_12th_man]

Well, I'm sold.

 

[vin.couve12]

Completely lacks natural talent? And to think teams were looking for the next Bruce Irvin in the draft this year. lol

 

[bestfightstory]

Completely lacks natural talent? And to think teams were looking for the next Bruce Irvin in the draft this year. lol

lol aside. You are using a cliche to disprove a commentary/opinion on Irvin.

Which teams? And who did they select?


And, be honest. Did you REALLY lol?

 

[vin.couve12]

Completely lacks natural talent? And to think teams were looking for the next Bruce Irvin in the draft this year. lol

lol aside. You are using a cliche to disprove a commentary/opinion on Irvin.

Which teams? And who did they select?

Not really. I get what is being said, but he mainly played passing downs all season and was a rookie in the NFL. The year he was brought into the league there were all sorts of regulations about contact in practice and for a player who, like many elite athletes in college, needed to become more technical in hand placement and get more proficient in disengaging from blocks (the two correlate), he lead all rooks in sacks and played well enough that teams were looking for the next version of him. The vast majority of players improve through year 3 dramatically and continue to do so as long as they can play in the league. The point is perspective. Not too high, not too low.

'Sides...I think that very strong statement was probably a mistype. I know I do it sometimes. Thoughts work faster than fingers and sentences sometimes get jumbled with a wrong word here and there.

 

[vin.couve12]

Also, given my last post it brings up a concern going forward with players being able to "practice" general POA play. Bobby Wagner was the single player I wanted most in that last draft and I knew he already had the right frame of mind at the POA. He's a monster there for a LB, but players who need to improve in that regard no longer get the same amount of practice reps for that specific mental contidioning. Never really thought about it....

 

[vin.couve12]

Oh, and one more thing just because Woodford Reserve is good; Balsamic dressing, worcestershire, Italian seasoning, Garlic salt, black pepper, and a little lemon juice makes for a great quick marinade for boneless pork chops over lump coal. I only marinaded them for about 30-45 minutes so there wasn't too much acid burn and so it wasn't too overpowering a flavor and those things turned out great. Got bored and threw it together.

 

[bestfightstory]

I won't speak for kearly ( though I sure was quick to pipe up in his defense) but, damn, I sure do hope you are right. Without using all the technical language, I didn't see a dynamic NFL player.

However, I think there is a likelihood he could be an impact player in the right situations with the right role and coaching and supporting cast.

He seems like a guy who needs just the right recipe to be a vital ingredient.

 

[vin.couve12]

 

[Atradees]

I had thought he would be a great player in the "Spinner" role. He would be poorly placed as a DE in my opinion.
LB lined up all over the place. Keep them guessing. 100% behind him in that capacity as a pass rusher. Then its coaching and speed. I dont question his desire to be a great player. An impact player.

I dont want to rely on him as a Leo or a coverage player.

 

[ivotuk]

I disagree that Bruce "isn't very bright." I believe he is a very intelligent young man who may not have books smarts but he has come from a disadvantaged life (much of it his own doing), and improved his lot. He had help, and unlike most people in his former position, he took that help.

I also disagree about the drug use, from what I read, he didn't actually use drugs, just enjoyed the money and freedom (albeit temporary) that selling drugs brings. I am somewhat of an expert on drug abuse/addiction and I don't see a user or an addict in Bruce Irvin. An enforcer maybe, but not a user.

Bruce is motivated, he has never in his life had a family around him like the one that he has now. He is amongst his peers, and instead of influencing him to take the easy way, his current peers are leading by example, and he desperately wants to be a part of that.

Instincts come from coaching and playing time, and Mr. Irvin hasn't had a whole lot of either. Instinct is basically your muscles and your mind doing something so many times that you can react in milliseconds without thinking about it. From what I saw, this young man was starting to get it late in the season. He still has a long ways to go, but he recognized that Atlanta was running right at him and he busted his tail to do something about that this off season. He went a little overboard and leaned on chemicals to develop, but that's not too surprising considering his background.

Bruce Irvin desperately wants to be a part of what is going on in Seattle, and imaho, he has the physical talent, desire, and mental acuity that it takes to get there and to be one of the best. I hope he completes his come back from a shit life and becomes a Hall of Fame Defensive End. He has what it takes, and the opportunity, now all he needs to do is apply himself. Otherwise it's a lifetime worth of regrets.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Sorry, but I echo much of kearly's analysis.

I surely dont think he will be a capable player vs the run OR in pass coverage this year (if ever).

And, frankly, I am not convinced he will be an asset as a pass rusher-UNLESS-he is surrounded by other pass rushing threats. Multiple ones. In which case, I think he could be a dynamic Weapon X kind of wild card.

Just have not been impressed.

Sure hope that changes this year.

But 15 to 20 sacks in a season for this guy? I would bet against that. And give good odds. Hope you're right.

I might have went a little overboard with my 20 sacks statement but I will guarantee (which I really can't) by the time Irvin's career is done he'll have multiple 10+ sack seasons as well as, even if its just one season where he has at least 15+ sacks.

Intelligence my come into play a lot but it doesn't take a whole lot of intel to be a great football player in my opinion. If you lack the size and speed, yeah, I can see where intelligence and instinct will make up for that that i.e. Nick Reed. But where is he now?

What I measure for the truly great players if they have enough talent, is the heart, desire, and dedication to become something great. Irvin has a lot of doubters, he knows this, he's probably has the biggest chip on his shoulder than any other player on this team possibly in this league especially when he was drafted and the media response was basically to laugh in his face and doubt his abilities and prospects worthy of a first round grade.

So while we can just compare him to a guy like Aaron Curry who in recent interviews with the New York media said he basically cashed out, was selfish, and didn't care.

Irvin, imo, is the anti- Curry...Irvin doesn't care about the money in the long run.... he's a person who has been doubted his whole life... he's the person searching for the glory of self-accomplishment and to be revered and that is what truly drives and motivates him.... I could be wrong about that assessment but that is what I truly take from his interviews and when he was suspended he didn’t give some half ass statement that sounded like a PR move, it was genuine and seemed to come from the heart.

The guy seems truly dedicated to become something great, whether or not is up to him and him only, and not our assessment of the weaknesses that we think will hinder him as a player especially downplaying his intelligence. That’s BS. Football isn’t rocket science, instincts can be taught. Higher IQs don’t equal Hall of Fame careers or even Pro Bowl players.

Johnny Unitas didn't sound very bright. And Ryan Fitzpatrick, who is probably one of, if not the smartest of players let alone QB in the NFL, couldn't hold his job down even after signing a long-term extension.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Sorry, but I echo much of kearly's analysis.

I surely dont think he will be a capable player vs the run OR in pass coverage this year (if ever).

And, frankly, I am not convinced he will be an asset as a pass rusher-UNLESS-he is surrounded by other pass rushing threats. Multiple ones. In which case, I think he could be a dynamic Weapon X kind of wild card.

Just have not been impressed.

Sure hope that changes this year.

But 15 to 20 sacks in a season for this guy? I would bet against that. And give good odds. Hope you're right.

I might have went a little overboard with my 20 sacks statement but I will guarantee (which I really can't) by the time Irvin's career is done he'll have multiple 10+ sack seasons as well as, even if its just one season where he has at least 15+ sacks.

Intelligence my come into play a lot but it doesn't take a whole lot of intel to be a great football player in my opinion. If you lack the size and speed, yeah, I can see where intelligence and instinct will make up for that that i.e. Nick Reed. But where is he now?

What I measure for the truly great players if they have enough talent, is the heart, desire, and dedication to become something great. Irvin has a lot of doubters, he knows this, he's probably has the biggest chip on his shoulder than any other player on this team possibly in this league especially when he was drafted and the media response was basically to laugh in his face and doubt his abilities and prospects worthy of a first round grade.

So while we can just compare him to a guy like Aaron Curry who in recent interviews with the New York media said he basically cashed out, was selfish, and didn't care.

Irvin, imo, is the anti- Curry...Irvin doesn't care about the money in the long run.... he's a person who has been doubted his whole life... he's the person searching for the glory of self-accomplishment and to be revered and that is what truly drives and motivates him.... I could be wrong about that assessment but that is what I truly take from his interviews and when he was suspended he didn’t give some half ass statement that sounded like a PR move, it was genuine and seemed to come from the heart.

The guy seems truly dedicated to become something great, whether or not is up to him and him only, and not our assessment of the weaknesses that we think will hinder him as a player especially downplaying his intelligence. That’s BS. Football isn’t rocket science, instincts can be taught. Higher IQs don’t equal Hall of Fame careers or even Pro Bowl players.

Johnny Unitas didn't sound very bright. And Ryan Fitzpatrick, who is probably one of, if not the smartest of players let alone QB in the NFL, couldn't hold his job down even after signing a long-term extension.

Marshawn Lynch doesn't doesn't sound very bright in his interviews either, but RW will tell you his football IQ is off the charts.

And while we're making feel-good, warm-n-fuzzy statements, Irvin seems to genuinely give a sh#t about his fans. That's a major reason why he has so many rabid followers from WVU.

He's the kind of person I love to see succeed. The dude has a personalty similar to WT3s. Down to earth, but has tons of moxie. Also, I think this coaching staff has earned the benefit of doubt.

 

[brimsalabim]

After reading about the kids history I have to ask, What are players who actually NEED drugs like Aderall supposed to do in this league?