Shelby Harris - "Seattle is a Purgatory "

hawkfan68

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There was also a 10-season period where the Hawks went to the SB 3 times. Purgatory my a**
True. However, Shelby Harris was not a Seahawk during that time. He is speaking of his experience during his time here from 2022 season. Which is the only one he had as a Seahawk. Thankfully so. Since he’s not as good as he thinks he is.
 

toffee

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Let's use PFF as a reference here, Harris's plays started to suck in DENVER, in 2021. Carroll and his coaches resurrected Harris' career in 2022, and his season with the Seahawks was the best in his last three seasons. And PFF opined that Harris brought his poor tackling and lack of sacks to Cleveland, different coaches and all.

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Maelstrom787

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Why does anyone have a problem with what Shelby said?

He's not talking about the team. Said all of his teammates and coaches were fine, no issues there. He just didn't want to move his family around and be in a place where it's grey for 200 days a year.

This isn't an insult.

If your job told you to pack up and move to some s*** like northern Pennsylvania without warning, I'm sure you'd be a little bummed about it! And yes, he makes millions of dollars, but come on - that doesn't shield you from the disruption that having to go spend a significant portion of your life somewhere you don't want to inflicts upon you and your family.

Shelby played well here. One of the few bright spots in a chaotic, stupid year for front 7 play here. Let the dude talk about his feelings, he doesn't owe us silence.

Also, YOU ALL THOUGHT (all = most, at least) this team was entering purgatory going into 2022, and you're FANS! You're really gonna hold it against Shelby for thinking the same?
 

Maelstrom787

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Let's use PFF as a reference here, Harris's plays started to suck in DENVER, in 2021. Carroll and his coaches resurrected Harris' career in 2022, and his season with the Seahawks was the best in his last three seasons. And PFF opined that Harris brought his poor tackling and lack of sacks to Cleveland, different coaches and all.

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Let's throw those POS grades in the garbage once and for all when it comes to evaluating front-7 defensive play. They're more misleading than they are illuminating, at this point.
 

SeaWolv

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If your job told you to pack up and move to some s*** like northern Pennsylvania without warning, I'm sure you'd be a little bummed about it! And yes, he makes millions of dollars, but come on - that doesn't shield you from the disruption that having to go spend a significant portion of your life somewhere you don't want to inflicts upon you and your family.

Shelby played well here. One of the few bright spots in a chaotic, stupid year for front 7 play here. Let the dude talk about his feelings, he doesn't owe us silence.
It's not common for most people's employers to ask them to move to another state. When they do it's likely there are other employers in the current area they could consider as alternative options. In the NFL it happens all the time and there isn't another local option. This is the job they signed up for. It's pointless to cry in the media about the negative aspects of your job for which you get paid millions.

Shelby may have played well here if your definition of well is mediocre. He was #23 out of the top 50 DI for 2022. He clearly didn't play as well as he did in 2020 where he was #8 out of 50. You may think PFF is inaccurate and there's some truth there. PFF may not have the top 5 defensive interior players ranked correctly but they are pretty accurate as to who the top 5 are. Does anyone here doubt that Dexter Lawrence, Chris Jones, Aaron Donald, Quinnen Williams and Cameron Heyward deserved to be considered in the top 5 of defensive interior linemen in the NFL for 2022? We can certainly argue the order of them from 1 to 5 but most would agree they deserve to be in the discussion of top 5. PFF is directionally correct. It's not the last word on who's the best and who's not. You could say the same thing for basic stats (sacks, tackles, stuffs, etc.), they don't always tell the whole picture either.
 
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Maelstrom787

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It's not common for most people's employers to ask them to move to another state. When they do it's likely there are other employers in the current area they could consider as alternative options. In the NFL it happens all the time and there isn't another local option. This is the job they signed up for. It's pointless to cry in the media about the negative aspects of your job for which you get paid millions.

Shelby may have played well here if your definition of well is mediocre. He was #23 out of the top 50 DI for 2022. He clearly didn't play as well as he did in 2020 where he was #8 out of 50. You may think PFF is inaccurate and there's some truth there. PFF may not have the top 5 defensive interior players ranked correctly but they are pretty accurate as to who the top 5 are. Does anyone here doubt that Dexter Lawrence, Chris Jones, Aaron Donald, Quinnen Williams and Cameron Heyward deserved to be considered in the top 5 of defensive interior linemen in the NFL for 2022? We can certainly argue the order of them from 1 to 5 but most would agree they deserve to be in the discussion of top 5. PFF is directionally correct. It's not the last word on who's the best and who's not. You could say the same thing for basic stats (sacks, tackles, stuffs, etc.), they don't always tell the whole picture either.
He's not crying. He's on a podcast having a conversation in which he takes no personal shots at anyone and talks about how he felt in response to shocking news in 2022. I have no idea why people get so insecure about stuff like this.

Also, he was ranked 23rd out of the top 50 interior defenders on a defense in transitional crisis that couldn't be coached to figure out basic run fits? How is that NOT good?

He was ranked their 19th best run defender going into 2023 and posted his best run-defense grade since 2018 with us. Again, how is that NOT good?

Your definition of "good" is the one that's f***** and I'm using YOUR CRITERIA to come to that conclusion.

PFF grades are used almost exclusively to make conclusions that they don't actually support. They cannot be viewed out of context, yet they always are because people want to boil things down to one number instead of considering the infinite complexity involved in actually grading players, because you'd then have to grade the scheme, the scheme fit, the position each player is put in on a specific playcall and the degree of difficulty of their assignment, and also consider that PFF does not in sufficient detail know about what these players are being coached to do.

For the purpose people use PFF grades for, they are garbage, and they lead people to strongly-held falsehoods more than they do hard-earned truth.

Unless, of course, you believe Ryan Neal was suddenly the best safety in the league when he played for us (yeah, no) or that Tyrel Dodson is the best LB in the league.

Get real.

His play here was almost objectively good, and he was one of the only ones who we could actually say that about in 2022 on the DL. And I'm not using PFF to say that, but if you want to go to them to make the determination for you? Guess what, they agree with me.
 

SeaWolv

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He's not crying. He's on a podcast having a conversation in which he takes no personal shots at anyone and talks about how he felt in response to shocking news in 2022. I have no idea why people get so insecure about stuff like this.

Also, he was ranked 23rd out of the top 50 interior defenders on a defense in transitional crisis that couldn't be coached to figure out basic run fits? How is that NOT good?

He was ranked their 19th best run defender going into 2023 and posted his best run-defense grade since 2018 with us. Again, how is that NOT good?

Your definition of "good" is the one that's f***** and I'm using YOUR CRITERIA to come to that conclusion.

PFF grades are used almost exclusively to make conclusions that they don't actually support. They cannot be viewed out of context, yet they always are because people want to boil things down to one number instead of considering the infinite complexity involved in actually grading players, because you'd then have to grade the scheme, the scheme fit, the position each player is put in on a specific playcall and the degree of difficulty of their assignment, and also consider that PFF does not in sufficient detail know about what these players are being coached to do.

For the purpose people use PFF grades for, they are garbage, and they lead people to strongly-held falsehoods more than they do hard-earned truth.

Unless, of course, you believe Ryan Neal was suddenly the best safety in the league when he played for us (yeah, no) or that Tyrel Dodson is the best LB in the league.

Get real.

His play here was almost objectively good, and he was one of the only ones who we could actually say that about in 2022 on the DL. And I'm not using PFF to say that, but if you want to go to them to make the determination for you? Guess what, they agree with me.
Not crying?? He literally says: “Man, like when I say I cried like a baby—because I was like ‘man, is this going to like mess up everything with my family? Like we have it so good here."

23rd out of 50 is in the middle and is the definition of mediocre, not bad but not good.

Transitional crisis?? That's your interpretation. How can it even be called transitional when Hurt had been here for years as AHC/DC/DLC?

If you take a list of the 50 best players in the league at any position the top 16 are good, the bottom 16 are bad and the middle 18 are mediocre. 19 out of 50 would put you on the upper end of mediocre. Not bad but not good either. He's had a lot of bad years, a lot of mediocre years and some good years. 2018 to 2020 he was really good. Not sure how this is "f*****" (apparently you get mad when people don't agree with you).

People using PFF incorrectly is not PFF's fault. As I said before, like any set of stats, it can be taken our of context. PFF is directionally correct if used properly.

Ryan Neal had a good year in 2022 but no one with half a brain would look at only that year and make that determination. You have to also look at 2021 and 2023 to see how he's trending and once you do you can see he had one good year and came back down to earth in 2023. Dotson seems to be improving and had a really good year in 2023, but it's still too early to tell.
 
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Maelstrom787

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Not crying?? He literally says: “Man, like when I say I cried like a baby—because I was like ‘man, is this going to like mess up everything with my family? Like we have it so good here."

23rd out of 50 is in the middle and is the definition of mediocre, not bad but not good.

Transitional crisis?? That's your interpretation. How can it even be called transitional when Hurt had been here for years as AHC/DC/DLC?

If you take a list of the 50 best players in the league at any position the top 16 are good, the bottom 16 are bad and the middle 18 are mediocre. 19 out of 50 would put you on the upper end of mediocre. Not bad but not good either. He's had a lot of bad years, a lot of mediocre years and some good years. 2018 to 2020 he was really good. Not sure how this is "f*****" (apparently you get mad when people don't agree with you).

People using PFF incorrectly is not PFF's fault. As I said before, like any set of stats, it can be taken our of context. PFF is directionally correct if used properly.

Ryan Neal had a good year in 2022 but no one with half a brain would look at only that year and make that determination. You have to also look at 2021 and 2023 to see how he's trending and once you do you can see he had one good year and came back down to earth in 2023. Dotson seems to be improving and had a really good year in 2023, but it's still too early to tell.
Okay, come on. You were talking about his statements on the podcast, not him privately expelling tears from his eyes in 2022. Don't start.

23rd out of 50 overall is better than average, and let's get something straight - are you talking about TOP 50 or saying there were only 50 IDL who qualified? Either way, there are more than 50 IDL in the league and being part of the 50 who QUALIFIED doesn't mean you're middle of the pack - it means you're middle of the pack for a guy with a large snap load, which is earned by being better than replacement-level roster fillers. You know this, so why are you being so obtuse? We're not talking about QB here, we're talking about a position where several players are rostered and play each week per team.

And yes, it was a transitional crisis. Again, you're being obtuse (or maybe just wrong, in this case). The defense obviously, and I mean VERY OBVIOUSLY, changed the very core of its scheme and philosophy between 2021 and 2022. Come ON, man.
 

jammerhawk

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Wait 3 playoff wins in 8 years isn't purgatory?

Thing is the team didn't suck over those 8 years and only once didn't have a winning record.

It's fair to grumble about mediocrity but that's not purgatory. Of course opinions very, but 3 playoff wins in 8 years is more than many other teams have had around the league.

Frankly this is a 'nothing see here' situation and the player is a crybaby whose public comments need to viewed with some suspicion due to their inconsistency.
 

toffee

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Let's throw those POS grades in the garbage once and for all when it comes to evaluating front-7 defensive play. They're more misleading than they are illuminating, at this point.
NFL front offices and coaching staffs use PFF as one of the tools in evaluating performance, if they use it, I will keep using it.
 

Hollandhawk

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Thing is the team didn't suck over those 8 years and only once didn't have a winning record.

It's fair to grumble about mediocrity but that's not purgatory. Of course opinions very, but 3 playoff wins in 8 years is more than many other teams have had around the league.

Frankly this is a 'nothing see here' situation and the player is a crybaby whose public comments need to viewed with some suspicion due to their inconsistency.
You can’t even count the amount of playoff wins the Seahawks had from 1985-2004 because there were none. People here have been spoiled.
 

SeaWolv

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Okay, come on. You were talking about his statements on the podcast, not him privately expelling tears from his eyes in 2022. Don't start.

23rd out of 50 overall is better than average, and let's get something straight - are you talking about TOP 50 or saying there were only 50 IDL who qualified? Either way, there are more than 50 IDL in the league and being part of the 50 who QUALIFIED doesn't mean you're middle of the pack - it means you're middle of the pack for a guy with a large snap load, which is earned by being better than replacement-level roster fillers. You know this, so why are you being so obtuse? We're not talking about QB here, we're talking about a position where several players are rostered and play each week per team.

And yes, it was a transitional crisis. Again, you're being obtuse (or maybe just wrong, in this case). The defense obviously, and I mean VERY OBVIOUSLY, changed the very core of its scheme and philosophy between 2021 and 2022. Come ON, man.
The guy admitted that he cried about coming to Seattle on the podcast. What difference does it make if he did in private or on the show, he still cried.

I don't give a rip about 3rd string players, this discussion is about starters and any others that play significant minutes, top 50.

Hurtt switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in 2022. This is the scheme they ran in Denver in 2021 so Harris shouldn't have had any issues adapting, especially being a 7 year vet at that point.
 

toffee

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The guy admitted that he cried about coming to Seattle on the podcast. What difference does it make if he did in private or on the show, he still cried.

I don't give a rip about 3rd string players, this discussion is about starters and any others that play significant minutes, top 50.

Hurtt switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in 2022. This is the scheme they ran in Denver in 2021 so Harris shouldn't have had any issues adapting, especially being a 7 year vet at that point.
Well said!
 

Lennie

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This goes in the BOO HOO! file.

I seem to recall him saying upon arrival that he was excited to play here with/for PC. I guess purgatory set in after that when he sucked as DE/DT

All this purgatory crap is just that, crap.

He didn't work out here and was not as good as advertised, C'ya crybaby.

Mind you this was time when the team had 'Hopeless Hurrt' as the DC so maybe his not working out had a lot to do with him not being used well.

He's been replaced and so has the HC DC and some key parts of the DLine, Harris is not missed.

He Seemed exciting then?
 

Maelstrom787

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The guy admitted that he cried about coming to Seattle on the podcast. What difference does it make if he did in private or on the show, he still cried.

I don't give a rip about 3rd string players, this discussion is about starters and any others that play significant minutes, top 50.

Hurtt switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in 2022. This is the scheme they ran in Denver in 2021 so Harris shouldn't have had any issues adapting, especially being a 7 year vet at that point.
Jesus christ.

I'm just gonna respond bit by bit.

The guy admitted that he cried about coming to Seattle on the podcast.
Again, you were referring to "crying" in a context that implied you really meant "complaining." He wasn't complaining. If you were actually talking about literal crying (you weren't), then you phrased it incredibly poorly (no, you meant what you meant and now you're playing a semantic game.)

I don't give a rip about 3rd string players, this discussion is about starters and any others that play significant minutes, top 50.
Being in the top half of the top 50 interior defensive linemen IS better than average. That isn't mediocre. I'm not sure how you can actually try to argue against this, as it's pretty basic math at this point. Your Gods at PFF had him as a top-20 run defender in his lone season here, in addition. So, yes, the discussion is about the top 50 players, which Shelby placed higher than the average in by the metrics YOU YOURSELF use to back up your argument.

Yet again, proving my point that people use PFF grades to support conclusions that the grades themselves in NO WAY support!

What's next? Taking the top-32 receivers, picking the one that grades out as the 15th best in the league, and then calling him mediocre? It's such faulty logic.

Hurtt switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in 2022. This is the scheme they ran in Denver in 2021 so Harris shouldn't have had any issues adapting, especially being a 7 year vet at that point.
This is heavily oversimplified and slightly erroneous. Seattle ran more legit 3-4 in 2021 than they did 2022. They were a multiple front that really ran mostly nickel 2-4/4-2 stuff. They had success when running the 3-4 stuff in 2022 (just like they did when running 3-4/bear front stuff in 2021) but generally didn't do it enough.

In addition, the scheme was poorly implemented and the run defense was atrocious. You cannot blame this on PFF certified top-20 run defender Shelby Harris, however, unless you'd like to eat shit on the PFF point.

While the defense around him was fairly atrocious, I agree with PFF however that Shelby was all-around above-average and put in a more inspired effort than essentially anyone else on that front did. He played his ass off, was a bona fide plus run defender, and added some stability and know-how to a unit in shambles.

How anyone can begrudge the guy for having a certifiably good year for us and then leaving just because he's talking about how he didn't want to be traded at the time in 2022 and doesn't like 200 days of rain a year is beyond me. It's so fragile.
 

Maelstrom787

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This goes in the BOO HOO! file.

I seem to recall him saying upon arrival that he was excited to play here with/for PC. I guess purgatory set in after that when he sucked as DE/DT

All this purgatory crap is just that, crap.

He didn't work out here and was not as good as advertised, C'ya crybaby.

Mind you this was time when the team had 'Hopeless Hurrt' as the DC so maybe his not working out had a lot to do with him not being used well.

He's been replaced and so has the HC DC and some key parts of the DLine, Harris is not missed.
Did you not think the team was entering purgatory when the Russell trade happened prior to the 2022 season?

Most here absolutely did, and most here subscribed to the purgatory crap as recently as last years end.

It's fine to say these things in hindsight. The thing that confuses me is who advertised Shelby Harris as better than what he gave us in 2022?
 
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