Sam

[Ozzy]

Can I remind everybody that Tom Brady LOST 3 Super Bowls. Maybe not his fault directly, but he wasn't perfect.

Exactly.

 

[Ozzy]

I don't think "is Sam good enough to win a Super Bowl?" is the right question, or even a particularly relevant question, because the answer is, it depends on the rest of the team around him.

I think the right question is "is Sam good enough to win a Super Bowl on this team?". I think the answer to that question is, yes, he absolutely is.

This is reasonable take and I agree. I think the only QB in the tournament who might be good enough to carry an average team to the SB is Allen.

 

[Torc]

Sure. And Mahomes SUCKED in the last super bowl against the Eagles. Six sacks, 2 INTs, a lost fumble. He did throw three TDs, two of them when the game was basically out of reach. We don't criticize him too much because his body of work is too impressive.

Stafford went 0-3 in his first three playoff games (with the Lions), and then won the Super Bowl with the Rams. He went from utter playoff futility to a championship....but he started out worse than Darnold has thus far.

The problem with Darnold is that we have a small sample size. He's played in a single playoff game and didn't play well....nor did the rest of his team. In my book his grade is an "incomplete".

 

[hox]

Not really to the same degree as Sam. No.

You could insert a handful of the remaining QBs as our QB that wouldn't bring with them the narrative that our only question mark in winning the whole thing might be them.

Stafford - we are a lock
Purdy - he wouldn't be the reason we lost if we didn't make it. He is solid and can play with the best of them when given time. He doesn't single handedly lose games.
Williams? Sure. But he also hasn't shown the tendency to just implode this year.
Love? Again, maybe not elite, but how many times has he just completely let the team down and been the reason they lost?
Hurts? Solid. If not spectacular, and has the ability to turn a game with his legs.
Bryce Young - huge question mark but his flaw is consistently not having the skill to be good enough more than it is him just falling apart suddenly in a big moment.

In the AFC Nix and Lawrence are the biggest risk to their teams IMO. Nix for his low ceiling as a passer (though he has that knack to just be able to win regardless) and Lawrence because he can lose accuracy at any given moment. Not to the degree he tossed INTs like Sam, but certainly to the point he stalls drives.

Allen? Superstar. Streaky at times but usually because the overall team is lacking.
Herbert? Superstar and has no record of imploding and causing his team to lose.
Houstons dude is also solid and a bonafide qbotf. Also not apt to lose a game for his team on his own. His issue is being good consistently.
Rodgers is Rodgers.
Maye? Any young player has the potential to royally screw up in a big moment, but Maye is garnering MVP talk and has shown an uncanny steadiness at the position.

So no, I don't think, outside of Lawrence and Nix, Young and Williams, that just any of the other QBs have the track record that would give one reason to believe they would be the obstacle to ultimate success.

It just is what it is. I haven't heard one single analysis of the playoffs and our team specifically that hasn't said that THE question mark as to whether we can win it all is Darnold. That's not hate speak or dislike - although he does have some haters out there in the media that won't give him credit for anything.

Sam has had 2 good season in his career. The rest have been as bad or worse than the resume Geno waltzed in here with and many of the same folks who said Geno would never get it done are all over the Sam bandwagon and get all worked up when anyone justifiably speaks negatively about him.

Sure, he played really well on a pretty good team last year and helped them win a lot of games. And then, he proceeded to toss it all away when his last 2 opponents figure out how to beat him.

This year, he has also won a lot of games and he has also been on arguably the best all-around team in the league. He played very very well through 10 week. Since then, like the last two games he played last year, teams have figured out how to stop him. Through the last 8 weeks, he has thrown as many TDs as INTs and has captained an offense that disappears for large stretches of games OR can't finish drives in the EndZone. And the reason why those drives aren't extended or we don't score is too often squarely on his shoulders. That is a trait fairly unique to a QB on a team as good as ours. That's why his ability and our fate is questioned.

Nix, Lawrence, Young, Williams. Those are the guys that I think would give as much pause as Darnold if they were on our team. The rest? We would be seen more as a lock.

Herbert is overrated. He has one less INT than Sam this season, while being paid a shit ton more. He was hot garbage in his playoff game last year as well, but managed to escape the narratives, while Sam did not.



Purdy has a higher INT rate than Sam this very season, while having a noodle arm that can't threaten deep. Just take away the short field and intermediate and he won't threaten deep. He also had a 3-pick game this very season. Sam can make all the throws.

Hurts? Carried by OL, running game and defense. Their offense this year will get them bounced soon.

Lawrence - has actually played very well since they got Jacobi Myers.

Maye - he's balling but gets to face Jets and Dolphins 2x...

 

[SoulfishHawk]

No way man. Sam is the worst QB of all time. If they win, it's only because of the defense and running game

 

[keasley45]

Herbert is overrated. He has one less INT than Sam this season, while being paid a shit ton more. He was hot garbage in his playoff game last year as well, but managed to escape the narratives, while Sam did not.

View attachment 77282

Purdy has a higher INT rate than Sam this very season, while having a noodle arm that can't threaten deep. Just take away the short field and intermediate and he won't threaten deep. He also had a 3-pick game this very season. Sam can make all the throws.

Hurts? Carried by OL, running game and defense. Their offense this year will get them bounced soon.

Lawrence - has actually played very well since they got Jacobi Myers.

Maye - he's balling but gets to face Jets and Dolphins 2x...

Your grading scale may need to be tuned up a bit.

In your opinion. Sure.

But the fact still stands, the narrative surrounding Sam is there for a reason.

Herbert is doing what he is doing on the Chargers, not the Seahawks.

Montana was accused of having a noodle arm too. No, I am not comparing Purdy to Montana, but you don't have to have a cannon to win.

And there isn't a particular style of defense that will beat him. It's not like he can't throw the ball deep and even if he couldn't, he is pretty damn good at hitting the intermediate and short routes. Shanahan's offense isn't ABC and 123. Purdy is a smart QB.
Sam can make all the throws and also make them to the other team. I don't know why this is debatable, outside of the desire to elevate your dude because he is playing in your team

Hurts is a complimentary piece and also a dual threat. He also has a knack for coming alive in the playoffs. I don't care for him, but the dude doesn't consistently crap the bed when things get hot.

All of you defending Sam know damn well that if he was lining up across from us, we would be chomping at the bit anticipating how many INts we can steal from him.

 

[hox]

In your opinion. Sure.

But the fact still stands, the narrative surrounding Sam is there for a reason.

Herbert is doing what he is doing on the Chargers, not the Seahawks.

Montana was accused of having a noodle arm too. No, I am not comparing Purdy to Montana, but you don't have to have a cannon to win.

And there isn't a particular style of defense that will beat him. It's not like he can't throw the ball deep and even if he couldn't, he is pretty damn good at hitting the intermediate and short routes. Shanahan's offense isn't ABC and 123. Purdy is a smart QB.
Sam can make all the throws and also make them to the other team. I don't know why this is debatable, outside of the desire to elevate your dude because he is playing in your team

Hurts is a complimentary piece and also a dual threat. He also has a knack for coming alive in the playoffs. I don't care for him, but the dude doesn't consistently crap the bed when things get hot.

All of you defending Sam know damn well that if he was lining up across from us, we would be chomping at the bit anticipating how many INts we can steal from him.

Or he can throw game winner to Justin Jefferson like he did against this MM defense last year.

Also no one is debating the turnovers. But just apply your grading curve to other QBs as well. Herbert superstar? Not after throwing 4 INTs in that playoff game that you gave him a pass for.

 

[glenwo2]

Go Hawks.

And....ah screw it. Go Hawks.

 

[keasley45]

Or he can throw game winner to Justin Jefferson like he did against this MM defense last year.

Also no one is debating the turnovers. But just apply your grading curve to other QBs as well. Herbert superstar? Not after throwing 4 INTs in that playoff game that you gave him a pass for.

And peyton manning tossed 4 INTs in the AFC championship game in 2004. Does that make him NOT a superstar?

Would you rather have Herbert or Darnold as QB moving forward if money werent a consideration? Talking pure ability and talent.

 

[Chapow]

Sure. And Mahomes SUCKED in the last super bowl against the Eagles. Six sacks, 2 INTs, a lost fumble. He did throw three TDs, two of them when the game was basically out of reach. We don't criticize him too much because his body of work is too impressive.

Stafford went 0-3 in his first three playoff games (with the Lions), and then won the Super Bowl with the Rams. He went from utter playoff futility to a championship....but he started out worse than Darnold has thus far.

The problem with Darnold is that we have a small sample size. He's played in a single playoff game and didn't play well....nor did the rest of his team. In my book his grade is an "incomplete".

And I would add to this, both Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson are pretty comfortably top 5 QB's over the last decade, in my opinion. Jackson is a 3 time all pro and 2 time MVP. He's also the all time rushing leader at the QB position. Josh Allen has also won an MVP and has averaged over 4600 yards and 39 TD's per season (passing and rushing). They've also both been starting QB's in the NFL for 8 years now, and both have had the benefit of being on some well above average teams in that time. Neither one of them has managed to even get to the Super Bowl, let alone win one.

Personally, I think judging how good a QB is by whether he's made it to the Super Bowl or not is extremely flawed. There are countless factors that determine which 2 teams make it to the Super Bowl each year, and most of those factors are out of the QB's hands.

 

[Palmegranite]

Would you rather have Herbert or Darnold as QB moving forward if money werent a consideration? Talking pure ability and talent.

Darnold.

 

[hawkfan68]

The guys you you list as massive upgrades over Darnold haven't proven anything either though. Darnold has made massive plays in key moments every time this year he's needed to and there are a bunch of them. Herbert, Love, Stroud, Maye haven't proven anything yet in the playoffs just like Darnold. The only guys in the playoffs I think are automatically better than Darnold are Allen and......well that might be it. I do like Purdy a lot but he completely fell apart against Seattle right? I think Herbert has a bright future but he did fall apart in the playoffs I think in his only appearance(I could be wrong) and even if not he hasn't won anything. Stroud is inconsistent. Rogers is an all timer for sure.
Maye has one win against a .500 team or something crazy like that. How can you trust Maye and not Darnold who has beaten 6 playoff teams this year? that makes zero sense. Hurts has played well in the playoffs but has been a mess this year for large stretches.

Didn't Purdy get manhandled by the Eagles in 2023 NFCCG? I don't believe he was the sole reason they lost but he didn't play well enough to be the reason they could have won either.

 

[keasley45]

Darnold.

Wow. The force is strong with you. Lol.

All good brother.

 

[Ozzy]

Herbert is overrated. He has one less INT than Sam this season, while being paid a shit ton more. He was hot garbage in his playoff game last year as well, but managed to escape the narratives, while Sam did not.

View attachment 77282

Purdy has a higher INT rate than Sam this very season, while having a noodle arm that can't threaten deep. Just take away the short field and intermediate and he won't threaten deep. He also had a 3-pick game this very season. Sam can make all the throws.

Hurts? Carried by OL, running game and defense. Their offense this year will get them bounced soon.

Lawrence - has actually played very well since they got Jacobi Myers.

Maye - he's balling but gets to face Jets and Dolphins 2x...

Yeah I think someone is a little biased when it comes to Geno, Darnold etc and excuses Geno were given are not given to Sam at all. Which again everyone is free to view players how they want, its what makes sports fun it just feels like Darnold isnt given the same leeway every other player is and its not a consistent approach when applied.

Either way go Seahawks

 

[Ozzy]

And peyton manning tossed 4 INTs in the AFC championship game in 2004. Does that make him NOT a superstar?

Would you rather have Herbert or Darnold as QB moving forward if money werent a consideration? Talking pure ability and talent.

I think its much closer than you probably think it is. Talent wise I think they're fairly similar. Remember Darnold was the #3 overall pick when he came out. I have zero issues with taking Herbert in this exercise and I would too maybe, but its not a gulf of difference.

 

[Ozzy]

Didn't Purdy get manhandled by the Eagles in 2023 NFCCG? I don't believe he was the sole reason they lost but he didn't play well enough to be the reason they could have won either.

Yep!

 

[MontanaHawk05]

OK, essay time. Hear me out.

Were it not for Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes, the conventional wisdom of "what it takes to win the Super Bowl" would be very different today.

It'd probably be recognized that you kinda just "get hot at the right time", or generally have a complete team. It'd be accepted that your QB doesn't need to be a face-melting gladiator and that it's completely legitimate to win it all with a game manager who's merely contributing while a rockstar defense generally provides the foundation. And guys like Wilson, Rodgers, Flacco, Brees, Roethlisberger, etc. probably would have elbowed their way to more than one Lombardi each and would be considered THE model. The Super Bowl would be a rotating carousel of such guys, rather than exceptions peeking through between the barnstorms of their betters. And hey, we all think the league would be better off for it.

Unfortunately, though, Brady and Mahomes HAVE been a thing. They've accounted for 10 of the last 22 rings just by themselves, far more than anyone else, and the league's rule changes to favor high-flying passing offenses have amplified their potential. It's left us with a distinct reality: in today's NFL, an elite face-melting QB is going to win you more rings than any other team setup and is the only path to dynasties that anyone has witnessed lately. Talk about the Dilfer model all you like. Did he win more than one? Peyton Manning backed his way into two on this model, but it was only one to fans of either of his franchises.

But one thing they did do: they turned the concept of drafting a different QB during their runs as absolute lunacy. OMG, are you kidding? He gets us to the playoffs every year. He won one, once. How could you possibly think we could do better? All we need is a better running back next year!!!1!!!11!1

But is it really lunacy? Is it crazy to think that there are a small number of Packers fans who wish they'd have drafted someone better than Aaron Rodgers and turned him into a Brady, feel that he was a letdown because he won ONLY one Lombardi in an era where dynasties are still possible, and, having watched him flail for 12 years after winning his only ring, are now kinda validated?

Maybe. Because I know people on this board who think that about Wilson. You know because they were glad he was gone. Sure, 20/20 and all that. But by 2020, everyone was sick of him.

Because when THE GUY comes along, we all know it. We knew Wilson was going to be IT within six games of his debut. TOUCHDOWN SIDNEY RICE! You remember. We all knew it. Fourth-quarter magic over and over. Winning games despite massive problems with his surrounding talent (2012-2013 OL, anyone? You griped without end). Yet here we are, bending over backwards to make excuses for Sam Darnold. A guy who's succeeding in a team model that has produced single Lombardi wins, but not dynasties.

And keep in mind - Darnold enters that strata of QBs only IF he wins a Super Bowl here. If he doesn't (and he'd better), if he falls short in 2025, he's a Purdy, a Rivers, a Kaepernick, a Schaub, a Cutler, a Dak, a McNabb, a Ryan. Guys who are always seemingly good enough and just need a biiiiit more help, but in the end - the fans who doubted them end up being proven right in the end. We knew about the 8-8 rut - QBs always seemingly close enough to success to avoid replacement, but never good enough to win. But you'd better believe there's an 11-5 rut, too.

That's why I'm uncomfortable here even if he wins next week. It's why I'll even be a little anxious even if he wins a Super Bowl, though believe me, I'll still be stoked and whooping and giving Darnold his full due, the rarefied air of Guys Who Have Gone All the Way. Can we really get a dynasty out of the guy? What happens next? Who are we passing up in the draft while we wait for him to repeat, or worse, while he wait for him just to get us a ring?

Lots of words to say I don't want to miss out on a Mahomes because of Darnold, and I realize people are just going to respond with "You couldn't have known how either Rodgers or Mahomes were going to turn out."

Fair enough. But at least maybe my stance will be a little clearer now, instead of people just tossing around the phrases "hate-boner" or "closet 49ers fan" because they'd rather watch the North American plate rupture and dump Seattle into the Sound than have the team risk drafting a first-round quarterback. Heaven forbid.

 

[soxhawk]

In your opinion. Sure.

But the fact still stands, the narrative surrounding Sam is there for a reason.

Herbert is doing what he is doing on the Chargers, not the Seahawks.

Montana was accused of having a noodle arm too. No, I am not comparing Purdy to Montana, but you don't have to have a cannon to win.

And there isn't a particular style of defense that will beat him. It's not like he can't throw the ball deep and even if he couldn't, he is pretty damn good at hitting the intermediate and short routes. Shanahan's offense isn't ABC and 123. Purdy is a smart QB.
Sam can make all the throws and also make them to the other team. I don't know why this is debatable, outside of the desire to elevate your dude because he is playing in your team

Hurts is a complimentary piece and also a dual threat. He also has a knack for coming alive in the playoffs. I don't care for him, but the dude doesn't consistently crap the bed when things get hot.

All of you defending Sam know damn well that if he was lining up across from us, we would be chomping at the bit anticipating how many INts we can steal from him.

So true. Friends of mine from other teams say they hope to play us only because of one reason. I'll let you guess. (and it's not the defense)

 

[hox]

And peyton manning tossed 4 INTs in the AFC championship game in 2004. Does that make him NOT a superstar?

Would you rather have Herbert or Darnold as QB moving forward if money werent a consideration? Talking pure ability and talent.

The only current playoff QBs I would take for sure over Sam right now, for this season, are Stafford and Allen. Next season, Stafford's bad back and age could start catching up to him.

I asked AI because I didn't watch all Charger games - among common opponents who performed better this season between Herbert and Darnold? Here is what it said:





And like I mentioned before, Herbert is being paid significantly more than Sam is.

 

[NoGain]

Yeah, there's been some great/HOF QB's who never won a Super Bowl...

--Dan Marino
--Dan Fouts
--Jim Kelly
--Fran Tarkenton

...other top QB's as well...

--Philip Rivers
--Kenny Anderson

Sometimes winning championships can be a harsh measuring stick to judge greatness by.