Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

[Sgt. Largent]

Great QBs have bad seasons, games, halves, quarters, series, plays, throws over the course of their careers. THEY ALL DO actually. You're demanding the impossible. 120ish Passer Rating is not a sustainable number (or thereabouts if he played great all of the time) over a 50ish games stretch is not an expectation you should have for a QB. You can root for that outcome, trust me I do all the time, but you cannot have that as your expectation. Your'e suffering from the "Mythical Franchise QB Syndrome". He plays great all of the time, and drags scrub to avg teams kicking and screaming to Conference Championship Games. --> That guy doesn't exist.

I agree, I and other Hawk fans are much harder on Russell then outside our critical fandom.

All i'd say is MOST pundits inside and outside the league also do not put Russell on par with Brady, Brees and Rodgers. So it's not just us, it's most of the league and those who analyze it.

It's why a subjective word like "elite" is impossible to factually define, and why this is one of the most debated topics on here, and elsewhere.

Too many variables. Which makes it a fun topic, and why I don't get worked up over it........as someone who's been around for the god awful laundry list of putrid QB's that have rolled through Seattle since inception ( Kemp, Gelbaugh, Stouffer, Mirer, Gilbert, Friez, McGwire, Kitna, Huard, Dilfer?) Jesus, I'm just glad we have a QB like Russell where it's even up for debate.

Cause we sure as hell know what it's like to be a have not.

 

[Tical21]

I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."

 

[SoulfishHawk]

That makes zero sense, for a smart guy, Millen says some dumb stuff. Must still be mad that his buddy Matt isn't the QB these days. :roll:

 

[Uncle Si]

Rodgers playoff win-loss record: 10-7. 99 QBR
Wilson: 8-4. 94 QBR

Both players with 3 games of qbr under 80.

Whats laughable is the level of excuses afforded Rodgers but not Wilson. Were you as concerned forthe massive effort put forth by Wilson with even less help than Rodgers over the last few years?

Packers fans are still waiting for Rodgers to lead them to more playoff victories (by your definition)

 

[Uncle Si]

I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."

Go look at his passing stats with Harvin and Graham.

The problem wasnt the passing attack, its that there was nothing else.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Rodgers, Brady or Rottenbarfer could throw a bunch of picks in a game and lose, and it would get spun as being anyone BUT their own fault. Russ had a horrific first half (in part to butterfingers Kearse, but he was way off) and took the team back from 16 points with 5 minutes to go to go to his 2ND STRAIGHT SUPERBOWL. But somehow, it wasn't because of him, it was because the Pack coaches messed up etc. Rodgers is unreal, but winning games and playoff games? He has been no better than Russ.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Wilson had a historic defense and transcendent RB to help his playoff win rating.

What has he done in the years without them?

Without them, his only playoff victories have been wildcard games. Meanwhile, I watched Aaron Rodgers (with almost no help) beat a Cowboys team while he was literally playing on one leg. And Rodgers has 1 SB win just like Wilson does. But Rodgers generally was the reason for his wins.

There really are not that many excuses left for Wilson.

He has a top RB corps, with the #1 rushing offense in the league.

His defense is still near the #15 level. We have a number of people on here that think it is pretty good.

His offensive line is not world beating, but not terrible.

His WRs group is thin on depth but Lockett, Baldwin and Moore is decent.

His coach is experienced and one of the better coaches in the league.

What excuses do you honestly think Wilson should merit?

 

[Tical21]

Rodgers has so many style points that his warts are offset by things that we see almost weekly that nobody else has been able to do. Guys aren't supposed to be able to flick their wrist from their back foot and throw a 40-yard dime.

He's like Freddy Couples. Freddy doesn't have a HOF resume. He isn't in the HOF, his immaculate golf swing is.

 

[Seymour]

I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."

Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."

Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.

Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

 

[Uncle Si]

The same excuses you give Rodgers, or other detractors will give Rivers, Ben, Ryan. The 10-7 in the playoffs Aaron Rodgers.

Ive watched Wilson take snaps and run for his life for a whole half, throw for 300 plus, 3 plus TDs and have nothing to show for it but absurd disdain or indifference for the efforts.

Rodgers gets hero like accolades for his performances, somehow gets bailed out of criticism by others with blame going to coaches and other players, all the while doing basically the same as wilson in their careers.

Its dumb. More than that, the continued effort in limiting Wilsons achievements through minimalizing them while waiting for a bad game to embolden the next wave of criticism is tiresome and demonstrates a willingness to only undercut the conversation while pretending to have it

I actually hoped for more from you.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Rodgers, Brady or Rottenbarfer could throw a bunch of picks in a game and lose, and it would get spun as being anyone BUT their own fault. Russ had a horrific first half (in part to butterfingers Kearse, but he was way off) and took the team back from 16 points with 5 minutes to go to go to his 2ND STRAIGHT SUPERBOWL. But somehow, it wasn't because of him, it was because the Pack coaches messed up etc. Rodgers is unreal, but winning games and playoff games? He has been no better than Russ.

All three of these cities have been ready to run their QB's out of town at one time or another.

Hell I got a buddy in Boston that said he was never going to watch another Patriot game again because they traded Garoppolo cause he thought Brady was done.

Steelers fans were pissed the last three or four drafts because they didn't draft a QB because they think Roethlessberger is going to fall apart at any time.

Same in GB, their fan boards are on fire with every poor Rodgers game.

So stop with the made up hyperbole, it's the same in every city. Fans are way more critical on their QB, coaches, players and coordinators.

 

[Tical21]

I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."

Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.

Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.

 

[Tical21]

I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."

Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.

Sorry, I didn't notice that 10th most yards season. I'm saying most of the others don't get the luxury of playing for "run first" coaches. He's asked to do less than many others. That is a fact. They have to go out and get yards that he doesn't have to go out and get. Get it?

Thanks for the lesson.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

I will add that Russ has only finished in the top-10 in yards once, I believe. Not that yards is a measure of efficiency, but does show that he is asked to, and produces less than many other quarterbacks. A lot of quarterbacks can only achieve team success by throwing the ball into the teeth of zones that are singularly focused on preventing him from doing so. Russ, outside of last year, which was his worst year, I believe, has never really been saddled with that burden.

We tried to build around the passing game, gave him a HOF TE, spent early draft picks on WR's, and the experiment fell on it's face. We committed again to becoming a run-first team, became the best running team in football, and Russ is flourishing. I think everybody in the building realized that building around the passing game wasn't an option.

Hugh Millen uttered a line a few weeks ago that I thought was pretty fantastic..."Russell Wilson will win you a ton of games, as long as you don't ask Russell Wilson to win you a ton of games."

Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.

Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.

So you're saying that an elite QB doesn't have to meet your self-made criteria to be called elite? We can cherry pick stats all day. Russ already has twice the 30+ TD seasons as Joe Montana. Jeez.... I'd sure hate to be that pedestrian. :roll: The bottom line is, his passer rating, completion percentage and every measurable aspect of his performance is elite. Your "feelings" don't change his performance.

 

[Tical21]

Well, like most haters, you are wrong. Top 10 twice. Want to know what years? 2016 and 2017.....yet people like you hate him more than ever. :roll: Russell plays for Pete Carroll, did you know that? Reason I ask is Pete is a run first coach. Did you know that? If you did, you would put "yards per season" as a non issue to determine your QB's effectiveness. So I'll assume you just learned 2 new things.

Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.

So you're saying that an elite QB doesn't have to meet your self-made criteria to be called elite? We can cherry pick stats all day. Russ already has twice the 30+ TD seasons as Joe Montana. Jeez.... I'd sure hate to be that pedestrian. :roll:

What criteria are you talking about?

 

[TwistedHusky]

Si,

Let me clarify.

I am happy with the offense.

Happy with how Wilson is playing in this offense.

And I think he is a great QB. He is certainly top#7. He has attributes you cannot teach and he does things that most QBs are not capable of.

I am not sandbagging Wilson. And Rodgers is responsible for his own mess, most of the reason he has to carry the team is because he is making so much money that his team cannot keep anyone. I don't like Rodgers and I think his own approach screwed his team.

But Rodgers is still elite. And I still think Wilson has to be able to carry a team in playoff games to get that label. I think he is capable of it. And I think a lot of the missing pieces are now there.

But we have to move to a point where it is less about excuses and why Wilson couldn't do something (or shouldn't be expected to) and instead about what he delivers. That book is not closed yet.

I think Wilson still has problems with the things that most average QBs can do regularly but he does things that few of the elite QBs can do - and he does them regularly. However, at some point...ideally now, potential has to turn into reliable production.

I think it is possible though. I don't think that requires him to be elite regardless but carrying the team through the playoffs (not a SB just a playoff win) would be a big next step.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

:snack:

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Elway only broke 4,000 yards one season out of 17. He probably wasn't elite either by some people's reasoning on this thread. It's laughable how people will stand by a position that is wrong.

In the 80's and 90's, not even half the league threw for 3,000, let alone 4.

So you're saying that an elite QB doesn't have to meet your self-made criteria to be called elite? We can cherry pick stats all day. Russ already has twice the 30+ TD seasons as Joe Montana. Jeez.... I'd sure hate to be that pedestrian. :roll:

What criteria are you talking about?

Maybe you can enlighten us as to the Objective performance criteria you'd like to evaluate. The OP did one hell of a good job doing that. Please. Enlighten us with stats to support your position.

 

[Uncle Si]

Si,

Let me clarify.

I am happy with the offense.

Happy with how Wilson is playing in this offense.

And I think he is a great QB. He is certainly top#7. He has attributes you cannot teach and he does things that most QBs are not capable of.

I am not sandbagging Wilson. And Rodgers is responsible for his own mess, most of the reason he has to carry the team is because he is making so much money that his team cannot keep anyone. I don't like Rodgers and I think his own approach screwed his team.

But Rodgers is still elite. And I still think Wilson has to be able to carry a team in playoff games to get that label. I think he is capable of it. And I think a lot of the missing pieces are now there.

But we have to move to a point where it is less about excuses and why Wilson couldn't do something (or shouldn't be expected to) and instead about what he delivers. That book is not closed yet.

I think Wilson still has problems with the things that most average QBs can do regularly but he does things that few of the elite QBs can do - and he does them regularly. But at some point, potential has to turn into reliable production.

I think it is possible though. I don't think that requires him to be elite regardless but carrying the team through the playoffs (not a SB just a playoff win) would be a big next step.

Fair enough.

I dont disagree on Rodgers. I do think Wilson deserves more credit from his critics.

This thread has been far better from both "sides" than of late.

Winning does that i suppose.

Sunday is a huge test.