Pete Carroll on the Brink

[Fade]

Pete isn’t getting fired after one season without making the playoffs. Regardless of how one feels about that, does anyone seriously entertain that notion as a possibility? Seriously?

Russ isn’t getting traded either.

I mean good lord.

 

[jeremiah]

I personally can not listen to the mumbling word salad of a Pete Carroll press conference. Cliches R us.

Getting "old" isn't it? The last two post game press conferences are exact duplicates. It appears to me that Pete has
"lost the locker room".

I don't know for sure if he has lost the locker room, but I am totally certain he has lost my support. Then again, that happened after they lost to NE in the Superb owl. He ran his streak out, and will never again return to a Championship game. I would put money on it, any takers?

 

[Seymour]

I had a whole segment on my YT show arguing he should get fired. Not because of a poor start to the year but because of everything in the last 6ish years. Wasting the careers of generational talents

Link if you want to check it out
[youtube] https://youtu.be/jOXyB77-M8I[/youtube]

Brutal!

 

[Hawkstorian]

You are wrong about that. Most the people seriously talking about the need to replace Pete aren't swayed by individual games. As I said in my previous post, this isn't about the 1-2 start, this is based on observation spanning almost a decade.

A decade that includes 2 Super Bowls, and a the only victory in team history. Chuck Knox, Tom Flores and Mike Holmgren all fell short of that.

You can wish for Pete's replacement, and you may have a great case to make ... but let's not presume for a second that kicking Pete to the curb will lead to greater success for this team. History is pretty clear on that. I recall George Karl was heavily raked over the coals for only getting the Sonics into the playoffs. Now Seattle has no NBA team.

Try to have some perspective.

 

[Hawkstorian]

Pete isn’t getting fired after one season without making the playoffs. Regardless of how one feels about that, does anyone seriously entertain that notion as a possibility? Seriously?

Russ isn’t getting traded either.

I mean good lord.

Irony.

So, you want Pete fired --- please illuminate us on who the savior is.

 

[Fade]

Pete isn’t getting fired after one season without making the playoffs. Regardless of how one feels about that, does anyone seriously entertain that notion as a possibility? Seriously?

Russ isn’t getting traded either.

I mean good lord.

Irony.

So, you want Pete fired --- please illuminate us on who the savior is.

Nice strawman.

Pete must win or things are going to get ugly for him. Ignoring the current temperament of the people who follow this team closely is putting your head in the sand.

Please refer to OP.

 

[Jville]

Pete isn’t getting fired after one season without making the playoffs. Regardless of how one feels about that, does anyone seriously entertain that notion as a possibility? Seriously?

Russ isn’t getting traded either.

I mean good lord.

Irony.

So, you want Pete fired --- please illuminate us on who the savior is.

Nice strawman.

Pete must win or things are going to get ugly for him. Ignoring the current temperament of the people who follow this team closely is putting your head in the sand.

Please refer to OP.

Gee Wiz .......... I interpreted the photo posted as a self portrait.

 

[JustTheTip]

You are wrong about that. Most the people seriously talking about the need to replace Pete aren't swayed by individual games. As I said in my previous post, this isn't about the 1-2 start, this is based on observation spanning almost a decade.

A decade that includes 2 Super Bowls, and a the only victory in team history. Chuck Knox, Tom Flores and Mike Holmgren all fell short of that.

You can wish for Pete's replacement, and you may have a great case to make ... but let's not presume for a second that kicking Pete to the curb will lead to greater success for this team. History is pretty clear on that. I recall George Karl was heavily raked over the coals for only getting the Sonics into the playoffs. Now Seattle has no NBA team.

Try to have some perspective.

I didn't say a decade, I said almost a decade, and for that reason. Imagine where this team would be if we just kept on saying "he got us to a Super Bowl, so we should just accept stagnation" with Holmgren. No Pete and no Super Bowl victory. Seattle sports fans are way too sentimental. Or go back even further and just stick with Chuck, he was pretty good at getting us into the playoffs.

 

[themunn]

The same fans who say they want Carroll gone would replace him with Andy Reid, who also just lost a superbowl and has his team bottom of the division

 

[pittpnthrs]

The same fans who say they want Carroll gone would replace him with Andy Reid, who also just lost a superbowl and has his team bottom of the division

I'd replace Carroll with Reid in a second. The difference between KC being at the bottom of their division and Seattle is that there is no way KC is staying there where theres a very real possibility Seattle will.

 

[TwistedHusky]

This makes no sense.

Is there anyone who doesn't think Reid is a better coach than Carroll?

Everyone would trade Reid for Carroll.

That isn't really some great leap.

The problem with Carroll isn't that he isn't Reid, the problem is he isn't even really Pete Carroll anymore. At least not the kind of football Carroll used to preach and execute.

He doesn't hold his people accountable.
He doesn't even always play the better players.
The whole Always Compete thing is no longer valid.
He doesn't field great defenses anymore, and not even very good ones.
And he doesn't fill the roster with raw talent that turns into great players at a very effective clip anymore.

We beat the 49ers in their house. That is at least a start. And the defense did a better job. But beating a team with a rookie QB in his first start by only a single TD isn't exactly a sign you fixed everything.

The defense looks less terrible. And considering the amount of uncalled holds, they did ok considering.

But it doesn't fix the issue.

 

[AgentDib]

In my view the people who think Carroll is wasting talent continue to significantly overestimate the talent on our roster since 2016.

First, draft capital is by far the biggest determinant in talent level and the NFL constantly balances itself by awarding good teams much less of it. In my view, we haven't done a good enough job maximizing comp picks to try to correct for this, and we have traded away too much draft capital. However, both of these errors are caused by the team trying to win now and being comparatively successful at it.

Second, it doesn't really matter how great your individual stars are if you are paying them fairly. The fixed salary cap means that all teams have a level playing ground. It's completely besides the point to argue that teams can just kick cap hits down the road when every team has those same opportunities and what matters is the relative talent ranking between teams. The only way to get high value players is to get some sort of discount - through rookie contracts, or taking chances on unproven players, or getting players to sign team friendly extensions.

In a way, I respect the argument to fire Carroll much more if the argument is that it will cause the team to suck for a couple of years and build up a ton of draft capital, and then we can attractive another great coach to take advantage of all that draft capital for another Super Bowl run or two.

The Rams were the worst team in the NFL in 2015, the Cardinals were the worst team in the NFL in 2018 and the 49ers were atrocious in 2016, 2018 and 2020. They all received enormous draft capital as a result that is fueling their current programs.

If you can't be happy with a team that is consistently good to great, and would rather take a flier on a team that could be legendary like the 2013 squad then tanking is probably the better strategy for you. However, I doubt many season ticket holders who would be going to all of those bad games agree with you. I don't think it's a coincidence that there is a minority of vocal online fans who want to blow everything up while the fans I talk to at games are much more reasonable.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Carroll is a terrible gameday coach. That isn't his strength.

His strength is being able to find and develop talent, then deploy it effectively.

IF we do not have enough talent, then that is his fault - both for failing to draft effectively and for failing to develop appropriately. Or for failing to even draft at all, since we keep trading our picks.

You don't get to give Carroll a free pass for not having enough talent because of circumstances that he engendered. Especially when that is supposed to be one of the areas he delivers in.

If Carroll trades away picks to 'win now' and then does not win, ie do anything in the playoffs - that is a failure on him.

He doesn't get a pass for trading to win, not winning, and then using the excuse that trading all the picks gives him nothing to work with.

 

[LTH]

In my view the people who think Carroll is wasting talent continue to significantly overestimate the talent on our roster since 2016.

First, draft capital is by far the biggest determinant in talent level and the NFL constantly balances itself by awarding good teams much less of it. In my view, we haven't done a good enough job maximizing comp picks to try to correct for this, and we have traded away too much draft capital. However, both of these errors are caused by the team trying to win now and being comparatively successful at it.

Second, it doesn't really matter how great your individual stars are if you are paying them fairly. The fixed salary cap means that all teams have a level playing ground. It's completely besides the point to argue that teams can just kick cap hits down the road when every team has those same opportunities and what matters is the relative talent ranking between teams. The only way to get high value players is to get some sort of discount - through rookie contracts, or taking chances on unproven players, or getting players to sign team friendly extensions.

In a way, I respect the argument to fire Carroll much more if the argument is that it will cause the team to suck for a couple of years and build up a ton of draft capital, and then we can attractive another great coach to take advantage of all that draft capital for another Super Bowl run or two.

The Rams were the worst team in the NFL in 2015, the Cardinals were the worst team in the NFL in 2018 and the 49ers were atrocious in 2016, 2018 and 2020. They all received enormous draft capital as a result that is fueling their current programs.

If you can't be happy with a team that is consistently good to great, and would rather take a flier on a team that could be legendary like the 2013 squad then tanking is probably the better strategy for you. However, I doubt many season ticket holders who would be going to all of those bad games agree with you. I don't think it's a coincidence that there is a minority of vocal online fans who want to blow everything up while the fans I talk to at games are much more reasonable.

I agree with you this is a nice post...

Holmgren used to say all you have to do is get into the playoffs then its 0-0. I would rather be in the playoffs every year with a chance to win it all.

As we saw against the Niners specifically the magical escape and TD pass to Swain, Wilson is special and when ever he is on the field he can get hot and win the game vs anybody....

The Seahawks coaching staff takes a butt load of heat on this board but they do an excellent job with the talent they have and that is the most under stated, over looked subject talked about on this board by FAR! The Seahawks are picking in the bottom of the pile every year yet they are still competitive every year this doesn't happen unless a team has a great coaching staff. Most of these guys get zero credit on this board...


LTH

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Carroll is a terrible gameday coach. That isn't his strength.

His strength is being able to find and develop talent, then deploy it effectively.

IF we do not have enough talent, then that is his fault - both for failing to draft effectively and for failing to develop appropriately. Or for failing to even draft at all, since we keep trading our picks.

You don't get to give Carroll a free pass for not having enough talent because of circumstances that he engendered. Especially when that is supposed to be one of the areas he delivers in.

If Carroll trades away picks to 'win now' and then does not win, ie do anything in the playoffs - that is a failure on him.

He doesn't get a pass for trading to win, not winning, and then using the excuse that trading all the picks gives him nothing to work with.

Bingo.

I said this last week. If Pete's supposed strengths of defense (specifically defensive backs) and player acquisition and development are now weaknesses of this team?

Then what are we doing. The Hawk's haven't had a top 10 defense since what, the 2015 season?, and after that took a complete nosedive into a bottom 10 defense?

Then that's 5-6 years of Pete not living up to his end of the bargain as the HC IMO.

 

[Flyingsquad23]

Terrible game day coaches do not have .636 win%, every single flaw that gets pointed out can also be put on every coach in the league, they all make mistakes yet not all of them win at the same rate.
As it stands Pete would have to have consecutive losing seasons before they even think about moving on, other than that he will be given the chance to coach until he decides to hang it up. And he deserves that.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Flying,

You are doing the #s as a static thing.

Plot the #s out on a graph over time and then see if the #s are going down.

And going down despite one of the better QBs out there.

Nobody is disputing that Pete WAS great at building all the things that let him win despite being near tactically and strategically below average. But he isn't NOW.

We DID have a great winning percentage and at one point even a great playoff record.

Each year it gets worse though. That is on Carroll.



Also,

One of the reasons we keep 'picking from the bottom of the pile' is we keep trading into it. In 2018, we had the 18th pick (Jaire Alexander) but we traded to #27 (Penny). We did that often. Sure the 1st round picks did not pan out because they were lower picks, but we willingly traded into those slots.

So if we don't have talent because we pick from the bottom of the pile? That is on Carroll too. You cannot blame JS if Carroll is the boss of JS.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Terrible game day coaches do not have .636 win%, every single flaw that gets pointed out can also be put on every coach in the league, they all make mistakes yet not all of them win at the same rate.
As it stands Pete would have to have consecutive losing seasons before they even think about moving on, other than that he will be given the chance to coach until he decides to hang it up. And he deserves that.

We're not saying anything the large majority of the smartest analysts, ex GM's, coaches and media members have said or still say about Pete.

- He's a brilliant program builder
- culture
- processes
- competition
- player development
- the psychology of football and how it relates to the players

These are Pete's strengths. His weaknesses are on full display each weekend, and have been since he came into the league.

- clock management
- in game decision making
- slow to adjust
- stubborn with scheme and playcalling
- stubborn with philosophical change

So again, if we've now seen some of or most of his strengths, particularly player development become weaknesses then even Pete should admit it's time to re-evaluate his place in this organization.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

Reid is 1 and 2 in the super bowl.
Mcvay is 0 and 1 in the super bowl.

Does PC have his faults? Yes. Do i get annoyed? Yes.

He is a big part of why the Hawks have a superbowl. Has time passed him by? Maybe. Reid needs to win more super bowls to be this god like coach. Is he HOF? Yes. However, he has his faults too.

 

[Flyingsquad23]

And I’m sure Pete evaluates himself regularly, he has earned his place and the right to make this call. These so called weaknesses of his game can be seen in every single coach past and present at a given point in time. Hell I watch winning coaches mess up time management every single week. Being strong in your conviction with your philosophy is a positive to me, the coaches that change up their philosophy on a whim don’t have winning records and don’t last 12 seasons.