Lol, I love Football Outsiders... (Fail Mary-related)

[jamsomatic]

When he says go to :09 does he mean :21 in?

No. The part that matters is Tate getting his hand on the ball at the same time, or even before, Jennings does and never letting go.

Well. That's old news. Lol

 

[RolandDeschain]

When he says go to :09 does he mean :21 in?

No. The part that matters is Tate getting his hand on the ball at the same time, or even before, Jennings does and never letting go.

Well. That's old news. Lol

Yet apparently, people still bug Football Outsiders about it, or something. I doubt it's mere coincidence that Kacsmar Tweeted about it late last night.

 

[Schadie001]

Golden Tate met all the requirements of a catch in the NFL rulebook. And he met those requirements before Jennings did. That's all you need to know.

And that's why it was a TD and we won the game. Emotions are meaningless when you have the rule book on your side.

 

[jdblack]

...and his feet come down on the turf first (while both of Jennings' are still in the air.) It's a TD at that moment because Jennings still hasn't completed the catch until his feet touch. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant; the play is over.

I agree it was a catch, but it bothers me that people still keep saying things about feet touching the ground first. That part is irrelevant, nothing in the rule book about it. The only sequence that matters when looking at multiple potential catchers is who begins to control the ball first, assuming each catcher maintained control until the end of the play. If the defender begins that control first, then it is an interception. If it is the receiver or a tie, then it is a completion.

If Jennings' feet had touched the ground first, it still would have been a touchdown. If Tate had begun to control the ball after Jennings, then it would not have been a touchdown no matter how long Jennings hung in the air.

Edit: I love football outsiders too. Bet this topic will be around indefinitely because even people who agree it is a touchdown don't agree Why.

Dude, you're so wrong...

Clever retort. I think the only answer I can give is - No, you are.

 

[Evil_Shenanigans]

I think you can classify this one as an inconvenient truth!

Go Hawks!

Why are you hating on Tate and the Seahawks? The Inconvenient Truth was propaganda filled with half-truths. :lol:

Slow your roll there little fella! All too quick to jump to conclusions. Guess I should clarify. Just about everyone in the football world, except us Hawks Fans and a few with open eyes, thinks it was not a catch. I was merely stating my opinion that it was an inconvenient truth that he indeed did catch the damn thing.

And don't ever accuse me of hating on Tate or the Seahawks again.

 

[NJSeahawk]

When he says go to :09 does he mean :21 in?

No. The part that matters is Tate getting his hand on the ball at the same time, or even before, Jennings does and never letting go.

:th2thumbs:

Golden is his touch.

 

[Hasselbeck]

I still don't think it's a catch.

Sorry.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Not that it matters, since it's 2013, and that game was from LAST year.

 

[RolandDeschain]

And don't ever accuse me of hating on Tate or the Seahawks again.

Hahaha, I thought it was pretty obvious I was just messin' with you.

@Hasselbeck: Then you are willfully ignoring the NFL rulebook, and you have made it a belief you are sticking with no matter what. Like with religion, there is no arguing belief.

 

[KARAVARUS]

Never thought it was anything other than a TD. If I were the official making the call I would have gone directly to Jennings and said, "sorry bro, had you not been greedy and done the right thing by batting that ball down, you win. Your greed allowed that catch to happen. Play on the field stands as called"

I love that we know the truth but no one comes out and says it in the media for fear of their peers. And I also lament in the fact that we will have to see it every time we play the Packers from now until forever.

Personally, I see it as one of the greatest single player efforts of that season. He wanted it, he made it happen. Good on you, Tate.

 

[KARAVARUS]

No. The part that matters is Tate getting his hand on the ball at the same time, or even before, Jennings does and never letting go.

Golden Tate would never have let Leonardo sink into the depths of the Atlantic ocean.

MD Jennings = Rose

Golden > Rose

 

[BlueTalons]

No. The part that matters is Tate getting his hand on the ball at the same time, or even before, Jennings does and never letting go.

Golden Tate would never have let Leonardo sink into the depths of the Atlantic ocean.

MD Jennings = Rose

Golden > Rose

Whatever Golden touches turns to Gold! He was a Leprechaun you know, right?

case
Besides...play was called a TD on the field, no evidence to overturn (case made that he caught it anyway) call stands.
/case

GO HAWKS!!

 

[CEHawk]

...and his feet come down on the turf first (while both of Jennings' are still in the air.) It's a TD at that moment because Jennings still hasn't completed the catch until his feet touch. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant; the play is over.

I agree it was a catch, but it bothers me that people still keep saying things about feet touching the ground first. That part is irrelevant, nothing in the rule book about it. The only sequence that matters when looking at multiple potential catchers is who begins to control the ball first, assuming each catcher maintained control until the end of the play. If the defender begins that control first, then it is an interception. If it is the receiver or a tie, then it is a completion.

If Jennings' feet had touched the ground first, it still would have been a touchdown. If Tate had begun to control the ball after Jennings, then it would not have been a touchdown no matter how long Jennings hung in the air.

Edit: I love football outsiders too. Bet this topic will be around indefinitely because even people who agree it is a touchdown don't agree Why.

You explain why it matters about the feet touching in your own post. The end of the play is when Golden Tate's feet both touch the ground. Touchdown!

 

[jdblack]

My post is about whose feet touch the ground first - that order does not matter. If Jennings had touched down first, it still would have been a Seahawks TD.

 

[thebanjodude]

My post is about whose feet touch the ground first - that order does not matter. If Jennings had touched down first, it still would have been a Seahawks TD.

jdblack is 100% correct. Read the NFL rulebook and casebook. It makes it pretty clear in there, I've posted the pertinent sections on here before but people still don't understand the rules :x

 

[sutz]

Not to bring up the Hated Stealers or anything, but this is approaching being the Seahawks "Immaculate Reception" moment.

 

[CANHawk]

...and his feet come down on the turf first (while both of Jennings' are still in the air.) It's a TD at that moment because Jennings still hasn't completed the catch until his feet touch. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant; the play is over.

I agree it was a catch, but it bothers me that people still keep saying things about feet touching the ground first. That part is irrelevant, nothing in the rule book about it. The only sequence that matters when looking at multiple potential catchers is who begins to control the ball first, assuming each catcher maintained control until the end of the play. If the defender begins that control first, then it is an interception. If it is the receiver or a tie, then it is a completion.

If Jennings' feet had touched the ground first, it still would have been a touchdown. If Tate had begun to control the ball after Jennings, then it would not have been a touchdown no matter how long Jennings hung in the air.

Edit: I love football outsiders too. Bet this topic will be around indefinitely because even people who agree it is a touchdown don't agree Why.

Dude, you're so wrong...

Clever retort. I think the only answer I can give is - No, you are.

nice edit...

no, you are wrong because the definition of a reception/interception says:

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward
pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; *AND*
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to
perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it,
advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

So you would have been right IF both Jennings and Tate had their feet on the ground to begin with. However, since they were both in the air when they made the catch, all of the requirements for a catch hadn't been met so the rule that says...

Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players
retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an
opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such
players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

...doesn't come into play until Jennings finishes catching the ball (ie. getting his feet on the ground) by which time Tate gains simultanious control and completed the catch on his end. part B and C of the above definition of a catch are SUPER important to this argument. Jennings never finished meeting all requirements for a catch before Tate got hands on the ball.

You have to meet all the criteria before it's a catch. It's no different than making a "catch" and keeping your feet in bounds, but not catching the ball (y'know, those frustrating ones where the ref says he bobbled the ball going out of bounds), or catching the ball but landing with one foot out of bounds. Or better yet, those guys who appear to have caught the ball, but get hammered by the safety causing the ball to pop out. By your definition, those should be considered fumbles then because the pass was completed by your standards. Jennings didn't meet all the criteria for a completed catch before Tate gained co-control of the ball. By the time Jennings met all criteria for a catch, so did Tate. Simultanious possession, touchdown, Hawks win, stop talking.

The End.

 

[jdblack]

The difference in our opinion is about where a simultaneous catch is labeled "simultaneous" - I think it is step A, and you think it is step C. I base my opinion on the word "control" in the line that you underlined - "It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control." That word "control" is used in the context of step A (in my view) - "secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground".

It wouldn't make any sense if "control" meant completing the catch as in step C - It is super obvious that the offensive player can't get partial control AFTER the defender has completed the catch and made a football move on the ground, so there wouldn't be any reason for that to be the meaning.

I can see where the ambiguity is, but consider what kind of ludicrous call would be possible if step C was where simultaneous catches were decided - If Tate had not jumped at all and Jennings had solidly grabbed the ball half a second before Tate even touched it, but Tate grabbed the ball on the way down (without making Jennings lose control), then your interpretation would (I think) allow for that to be a touchdown.

 

[thebanjodude]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/26_2012_Official_CaseBook.pdf

Look up AR 8.28 and 8.29.

A.R. 8.28 NOT A SIMULTANEOUS CATCH
First-and-10 on A20. A2 controls a pass in the air at the A40. B3 then also gets control of the ball before they land. As they
land, A2 and B3 fall down to the ground.
Ruling: A’s ball, first-and-10 on A40. Not a simultaneous catch as A2 gains control first and retains control.

A.R. 8.29 NOT A SIMULTANEOUS CATCH
First-and-10 on A20. B3 controls a pass in the air at the A40 before A2, who then also controls the ball before they land. As
they land, A2 and B3 fall down to the ground.
Ruling: B’s ball, first-and-10 on A40. Not a simultaneous catch as B3 gains control first and retains control.

It doesn't say anything about whose feet touch the ground first, because it doesn't matter. It's whoever controls the ball in the air first, and as long as they both land in bounds, first to get control IN THE AIR made the catch. Basically, the NFL casebook describes exactly what you are talking about, and says that your interpretation of the rules is incorrect.

 

[CANHawk]

The difference in our opinion is about where a simultaneous catch begins - I think it begins in step A, and you think it is step C. I base my opinion on the word "control" in the line that you underlined - "It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control." That word "control" is used in the context of step A (in my view) - "secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground".

It wouldn't make any sense if "control" meant completing the catch as in step C - It is super obvious that the offensive player can't get partial control AFTER the defender has completed the catch and made a football move on the ground, so there wouldn't be any reason for that to be the meaning.

I can see where the ambiguity is, but consider what kind of ludicrous call would be possible if step C was where simultaneous catches were decided - If Tate had not jumped at all and Jennings had solidly grabbed the ball half a second before Tate even touched it, but Tate grabbed the ball on the way down (without making Jennings lose control), then your interpretation would (I think) allow for that to be a touchdown.

Step C IS where ALL catches are decided, simultanious or otherwise. it's not a catch is you do not complete A, B *AND* C.

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the internet and your arguement would never hold up in court because "control" isn't clearly defined. If you consider the rulebook as legislation, then a catch is legaly defined as ALL of step A, B and C. If you want to argue the issue of control though, I'd argue Tate had a valid claim to control of the ball from the start as well. He had at least one hand in the fight for the ball and maintained that hand for the duration of the reception. Seeing as how "control" is not clearly defined in the rules, if it could be argued that if Tate had so much as a single finger tip on the ball, he could be said to have control. There is absolutely no mention as to one player having more or less control than another, they only mention control. This is a case of simultanious control all day long and twice on Monday night. That's why Mike Tirico or whoever was screaming "simultanious" at the top of his lungs.

But really, it's not law and it's not argued in court. If it was, it would be one helluva long trial with numerous appeals. Games are called by human beings at full speed in real time... on (inter)national TV with 70k fans screaming at them. And thank god for that. Court sucks monkey butt. The call on the field was touchdown and even in reviewing the play in ultra slow motion, there isn't a whole lot you can see that screams for the call on the field to be overturned. Play stands, touchdown, Hawks win, game over.

And really... Screw the haters. Hawks had on TWO separate occasions, referees (the REAL ones, not replacements) mistake helmets for footballs and called touchdown and those games ruined seasons. We've been told for years that shit happens and to deal with it, so y'know what everyone? DEAL WITH IT! ...I can't believe people still hold this game against us.