keeping flynn vs preparing for future secondary contracts

[redhawk253]

Whether it's this offseason, next offseason, or whenever, the notion I agree with is that I would hate to lose one of our more important players just to keep Flynn on the bench. That's all.

That is not going to happen. we have over 10 million in cap space (Last I heard was 15 million, but I know it changes). I've seen teams with next to nothing still get big deals done for their players. If it came down to it, they'd get it done to keep players they feel is important. For us to worry about this is ridiculous. The team has full time cap strategists who know how to deal with these situations. It's not a problem

yeah because a player has never left a team before because they couldn't afford to pay him because there money was tied up elsewhere.. i dont know if its me or what.. but you're coming across as if you think we don't have to contend with the market in relation to our players becoming free agents.. you do understand that this is the kind of things teams think about when considering to keep, release, trade players... if you dont think for one second the guys higher up aren't talking about the money that could be saved in trading flynn for a pick and using that money to lock down someone else on the team... well then i just had a nice little laugh at your expense imagining that.

 

[razgriz737]

Who would have thought that so many would be so bored with a run at making the playoffs. This season is not over. The fight for a championship is front and center. And yet many of you are missing out with a strange preoccupation with unloading contracts and players. :34853_doh:

Trying to pass the time until Sunday and it's too early to start drinking. Bear with me, haha.

 

[kidhawk]

Whether it's this offseason, next offseason, or whenever, the notion I agree with is that I would hate to lose one of our more important players just to keep Flynn on the bench. That's all.

That is not going to happen. we have over 10 million in cap space (Last I heard was 15 million, but I know it changes). I've seen teams with next to nothing still get big deals done for their players. If it came down to it, they'd get it done to keep players they feel is important. For us to worry about this is ridiculous. The team has full time cap strategists who know how to deal with these situations. It's not a problem

yeah because a player has never left a team before because they couldn't afford to pay him because there money was tied up elsewhere.. i dont know if its me or what.. but you're coming across as if you think we don't have to contend with the market in relation to our players becoming free agents.. you do understand that this is the kind of things teams think about when considering to keep, release, trade players... if you dont think for one second the guys higher up aren't talking about the money that could be saved in trading flynn for a pick and using that money to lock down someone else on the team... well then i just had a nice little laugh at your expense imagining that.

We aren't in cap trouble, so although I'm sure the team has it's people in place discussing all the options (I said this in another post already), you seem to be of the mind that Flynn's contract is going to keep that from happening. I'm here to tell you that I guarantee you that is absolutely not the case.

Maybe you aren't familiar with how the new CBA works. Guys who sign these rookie tenders cannot even renegotiate for the first 3 years and they have 4 year contracts. This gives us a FULL year to renegotiate the terms of these deals and work out how to best make the contract fit into the team's cap structure.

Under the salary cap structure, any smart team has it's own guidelines on how much to spend on any given position. Different teams have players at different levels in different positions, but they all have these structures in place. I can guarantee you that we do, because I've heard Schneider talk about them before. Using basic math principals, and knowing that the salary cap adjusts with the income the league makes, and knowing that we are one of the top teams with salary cap space, and have quite a few guys making rookie contracts who can't even be negotiated until AFTER next season or later, all adds up to Flynn and his contract NOT being an issue. Anyone who believes it is an issue right now is off their rocker or mathematically challenged

 

[redhawk253]

I agree that keeping Sherman and some others is important. But the cost of Flynn for the NEXT 2 years is not unreasonable at all. Combine that with the facts, as Kidhawk provided, we are well under the cap and are managed quite well. Personally, I'm just not of the opinion that we should just get rid of a perfectly good backup QB. Hey, Turbin is a great backup to Marshawn...lets trade him. Hey, Walter Thurmond is a great backup to Sherman and Browner...lets trade him. Hey, Jeron Johnson is a great backup to Earl Thomas...lets trade him. If the team really thinks they are paying too much, renegotiate Flynn's contract. Hey, that would make him even more attractive in a trade. Bottom line, I'd rather keep Flynn as a high quality backup that I know we could win games with should Wilson go out.

every one of those players you mentioned see the field during a game.. and i'd argue that wt3 is our future starter across from sherman if he can stay healthy this time.. turbin plays and has an impact on the game.. flynn is the backup qb.. he only sees action in garbage time or if rw gets hurt.. there are other guys that can be had for less that dont provide much more of a dropoff than flynn. and if your starting qb goes out of the game your odds of winning go down considerably.. unless of course you can rely on your defense to carry you through the game.. so why not put that money towards improving the defense? have to look to the future if rw keeps doing what he's doing.. he's going to get paid really big.. he's a free agent in 2016.. im willing to bet he's going to see the largest contract for a seahawk qb ever.

on an unrelated note.. im pretty sure flynn isn't happy backing up rw.. theres just a multitude of reasons why flynn will likely be traded this offseason.

 

[redhawk253]

kidhawk

well you're basing your statement on averages essentially.. this is what we want to spend on a secondary any given year yada yada yada.. theres other things that factor into what they actually have to spend. like maybe having 3 or 4 probowlers in that secondary which is way out of the norm. so what you're saying is you don't think that we're going to have to make an exception to the rule when attempting to re-sign potentially the top corner and one of the top safeties in the game in 2015? i beg to differ.. that money is going to have to come from one of the other positions.. and flynn offers one of the largest chunks you will be able to find by getting rid of one single player.

 

[kidhawk]

kidhawk

well you're basing your statement on averages essentially.. this is what we want to spend on a secondary any given year yada yada yada.. theres other things that factor into what they actually have to spend. like maybe having 3 or 4 probowlers in that secondary which is way out of the norm. so what you're saying is you don't think that we're going to have to make an exception to the rule when attempting to re-sign potentially the top corner and one of the top safeties in the game in 2015? i beg to differ.. that money is going to have to come from one of the other positions.. and flynn offers one of the largest chunks you will be able to find by getting rid of one single player.

Go back and read what I wrote. I said that teams have different values for different positions. Obviously you value your better talent higher, but each team still has a system under which they operate. Obviously a team with 3 probowl DB's will spend more money there, similar to how a team with 2 or 3 pro bowl LB's will spend more money there and a team with a future HOF qb will spend more money there. It's all unique to each team. Our team has it's own system, and no matter what they value each position at, Flynn's contract is not exceedingly high and with the current batch of upcoming free agents won't be a problem for us financially.

This doesn't mean that behind the scenes, they don't have a plan to replace him and get something for him, neither I, nor anyone else in this forum could possibly know that, but as far as numbers are concerned, Flynn's contract is NOT a problem for re-signing other players.

 

[mikeak]

Kidhawk - I agree with you in general but I think you are oversimplifyng and here is why

For simplicity of math say you have one guy - Sherman - signed for 3 years can't negotiate. You have $500K salary for him year 1, 2 and 3
You have one other player like Lynch big contract but you want to keep him long term he is making $10 million (simple numbers for the sake of it)

Those are the only two players on your team -- salary cap is $15 million

You can wait to year three and realize Sherman wants $10 million / year as well. Lynch still wants his $10 million - crap you are over the cap and get rid of a guy

Or in year two you re-sign lynch give him an extra signing bonus of $4.5 million so he makes $14.5 in year two but he agress to a lower salary in year 3 at the tune of $5.5 million. Outcome for Lynch - $20 million same as otherwise, more up-front good for him he won't get cut.....

Now negotiate with Sherman he agrees to $9.5 million instead - two years under the cap keep both players

I agree keep Flynn one more year but in 2 years that is too much money on the bench

 

[SonicHawk]

Waste of space to pay Flynn that much next year.

If Flynn was so damn good he wouldn't be sitting on the bench anyways. I'm ok with letting him go.

 

[kidhawk]

Kidhawk - I agree with you in general but I think you are oversimplifyng and here is why

For simplicity of math say you have one guy - Sherman - signed for 3 years can't negotiate. You have $500K salary for him year 1, 2 and 3
You have one other player like Lynch big contract but you want to keep him long term he is making $10 million (simple numbers for the sake of it)

Those are the only two players on your team -- salary cap is $15 million

You can wait to year three and realize Sherman wants $10 million / year as well. Lynch still wants his $10 million - crap you are over the cap and get rid of a guy

Or in year two you re-sign lynch give him an extra signing bonus of $4.5 million so he makes $14.5 in year two but he agress to a lower salary in year 3 at the tune of $5.5 million. Outcome for Lynch - $20 million same as otherwise, more up-front good for him he won't get cut.....

Now negotiate with Sherman he agrees to $9.5 million instead - two years under the cap keep both players

I agree keep Flynn one more year but in 2 years that is too much money on the bench

I'm merely keeping it simple because we have nothing concrete to discuss here. There are tons of options for how to stay under the cap. The only difference from next year, to the year after is about a million dollars as far as Flynn's cap number. As you said, players can and may renegotiate other contracts to get bonuses that defer. It's a popular way to create space. My ENTIRE point is that this thread is meaningless, because we are not in trouble as far as the cap is concerned. We are one of the teams with the most cap space, we have quite a few players who cannot make huge salaries due to their youth. We also will draft more players over the course of the next two drafts who will come to the team making lower salaries and you will see a few vets that won't be here because those younger guys will replace them and their salaries. There are lots of variables, but Flynn's contract is not a problem for us in the upcoming off season and this entire thread about it being Flynn vs. keeping talent is WAY WAY out of whack, because it's not coming down to that.

 

[redhawk253]

we also need to either resign jason jones next year... i'd personally like to improve at the position.. so where does that money come from? gona need to restructure some guys next year as well preparing for the big hits were gona see in 2014 and 2015.. that 5.25 million is just sitting there on the bench anyways.. and like i said in one of my other posts if russell wilson continues to play how he has he's likely to see the largest seahawks qb contract ever.. thats going to require a lot of money.. might as well start making room for it by restructuring guys in the years we have some free space to work with..

all of this falls under the way side when considering we still need to improve on a year to year basis as well.. which takes signing new guys.. would you rather pay money to a dt that can collapse the pocket or a backup qb that rides the pine?

 

[redhawk253]

kidhawk

well you're basing your statement on averages essentially.. this is what we want to spend on a secondary any given year yada yada yada.. theres other things that factor into what they actually have to spend. like maybe having 3 or 4 probowlers in that secondary which is way out of the norm. so what you're saying is you don't think that we're going to have to make an exception to the rule when attempting to re-sign potentially the top corner and one of the top safeties in the game in 2015? i beg to differ.. that money is going to have to come from one of the other positions.. and flynn offers one of the largest chunks you will be able to find by getting rid of one single player.

Go back and read what I wrote. I said that teams have different values for different positions. Obviously you value your better talent higher, but each team still has a system under which they operate. Obviously a team with 3 probowl DB's will spend more money there, similar to how a team with 2 or 3 pro bowl LB's will spend more money there and a team with a future HOF qb will spend more money there. It's all unique to each team. Our team has it's own system, and no matter what they value each position at, Flynn's contract is not exceedingly high and with the current batch of upcoming free agents won't be a problem for us financially.

This doesn't mean that behind the scenes, they don't have a plan to replace him and get something for him, neither I, nor anyone else in this forum could possibly know that, but as far as numbers are concerned, Flynn's contract is NOT a problem for re-signing other players.

you're not using common sense.. it completely does.. the point remains we don't have unlimited resources when signing these guys and we have to come in under the cap.. no matter what value the team places on any given position we have some huge contracts coming up that we're going to have to pay and we are going to have to make room and i still want to sign some guys to improve other positions.. that money will need to be cleared out to make room.

 

[redhawk253]

i agree that his cap number isn't completely ridiculous.. but we are going to have to pay some ridiculous contracts soon.. and any way you split it if you can save 4-5 million dollars on one guy who isn't making an impact.. no two ways about it he is simply a backup qb.. you have to get rid of him and get that money..

 

[redhawk253]

basically it comes down to this..

you think we already have the cap room to pay everyone we need to easily..

i think we're going to have to be creative and save money where we can because we dont and you know pete still wants some more new toys as well.

 

[kidhawk]

[urltargetblank]http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/[/urltargetblank]

This is a list of player contracts that expire after this season

Jason Jones - $4.5 million
Leroy Hill - $1.6 million
Steven Hauschka - $1.26 million
Frank Omiyale - $1.225 million
Clint Gresham - $1.224 million
Charly Martin - $1.02 million
Chris Maragos - $870 thousand
Clinton McDonald - $540 thousand
Alan Branch - $7 million
Marcus Trufant - $1.3 million


Please show me where we are in such dire trouble financially here

Just so you know, Thomas and Sherman and Kam are signed through 2014 and Thurmond and Browner are listed as 2013

Edited to add in the DB contract timing

 

[SonicHawk]

I don't think Flynn has any interest in staying around.

I would rather pick up a rookie in the 4-7th then keep Flynn around.

 

[redhawk253]

it doesn't matter if those contracts expire lol.. we still have to resign or replace those players at those positions.. and those are total contracts.. not year to year cap hits so those numbers aren't the actual amount of money that will be free'd up from the cap...

so to go with your line of thought..

browner is making about 500k a year..
chancelor is making about 500k a year...
sherman is making about 500k a year....
tate is making about 500k a year.....
thomas is making 1.5 mill and 2.5 mill respectively in 2013 and 2014......

heres a list of the top 20 salaries at each position for 2012... look at those numbers.. those are millions and millions above what these guys are making.. assuming we resign sherman, thomas, chancelor, and tate as they are young still improving and all are exceptional players at their positions (tate is coming out of his shell needs to prove he can continue to be consistent and i'd like to see a bit more from chancelor) but all of them will be highly valued by the rest of the league.. where do you think all this money is coming from.. because we may have space.. but we dont have THAT much space..

CB:

Darrelle Revis, Jets - $12,100,000 - Signed thru 2013
Charles Woodson, Packers - $11,500,000 - Signed thru 2014
Nnamdi Asomugha, Eagles - $11,000,000 - Signed thru 2015
Brent Grimes, Falcons - $10,281,000 - Signed thru 2012
Chris Gamble, Panthers - $9,950,000 - Signed thru 2014
Johnathan Joseph, Texans - $9,750,000 - Signed thru 2015
Brandon Flowers, Chiefs - $9,750,000 - Signed thru 2016
Champ Bailey, Broncos - $9,500,000 - Signed thru 2014
DeAngelo Hall, Redskins - $9,500,000 - Signed thru 2014
Corey Webster, Giants - $8,470,000 - Signed thru 2013
Leon Hall, Bengals - $8,400,000 - Signed thru 2015
Eric Wright, Buccaneers - $8,250,000 - Signed thru 2016
Antonio Cromartie, Jets - $8,050,000 - Signed thru 2014
Tramon Williams, Packers - $7,300,000 - Signed thru 2014
Joe Haden, Browns - $6,365,505 - Signed thru 2014
Jabari Greer, Saints - $6,150,000 - Signed thru 2012
Stanford Routt, Chiefs - $6,000,000 - Signed thru 2014
Cortland Finnegan, Rams - $6,000,000 - Signed thru 2016
Carlos Rogers, 49ers - $5,500,000 - Signed thru 2015
Sheldon Brown, Browns - $5,366,667 - Signed thru 2012

FS:

Quinton Mikel, Rams - $10,000,000 - Signed thru 2014
Antrel Rolle, Giants - $9,000,000 - Signed thru 2014
Eric Weddle, Chargers - $7,600,000 - Signed thru 2015
Ed Reed, Ravens - $7,200,000 - Signed thru 2012
Antoine Bethea, Colts - $5,025,000 - Signed thru 2013
Kerry Rhodes, Cardinals - $5,000,000 - Signed thru 2012
Ryan Clark, Steelers - $3,750,000 - Signed thru 2013
Daniel Manning, Texans - $3,500,000 - Signed thru 2014
Eric Smith, Jets - $3,266,667 - Signed thru 2013
Michael Huff, Raiders - $3,183,333 - Signed thru 2014
Ronde Barberm Buccaneers - $3,000,000 - Signed thru 2012
Malcolm Jenkins, Saints - $2,710,000 - Signed thru 2013
Mike Adams, Broncos - $2,125,000 - Signed thru 2013
Thomas DeCoud, Falcons - $2,000,000 - Signed thru 2016
Dawan Landry, Jaguars - $1,850,000 - Signed thru 2015
Usama Young, Browns - $1,800,000 - Signed thru 2013
Gerald Sensabaugh, Cowboys - $1,800,000 - Signed thru 2016
Dwight Lowery, Jaguars - $1,750,000 - Signed thru 2015
Steve Gregory, Patriots - $1,683,333 - Signed thru 2014
Haruki Nakamura, Panthers - $1,033,333 - Signed thru 2014

SS:

Adrian Wilson, Cardinals - $10,550,000 - Signed thru 2013
Troy Polamalu, Steelers - $8,890,000 - Signed thru 2014
Roman Harper, Saints - $6,250,000 - Signed thru 2012
Tyvon Branch, Raiders - $6,212,000 - Signed thru 2012
Eric Berry, Chiefs - $4,842,800 - Signed thru 2014
Donte Whitner, 49ers - $4,383,333 - Signed thru 2013
Brandon Meriwwather, Bears - $2.950,000 - Signed thru 2013
Kenny Phillips, Giants - $2,586,000 - Signed thru 2012
Bernard Pollard, Ravens - $1,950,000 - Signed thru 2015
George Wilson, Bills - $1,791,666 - Signed thru 2013
Will Allen, Steelers - $1,605,000 - Signed thru 2012
Yeremiah Bell, Jets - $1,400,000 - Signed thru 2012
Jordan Babineaux, Titans - $1,400,000 - Signed thru 2013
Eric Frampton, Vikings - $1,233,333 - Signed thru 2013
Brodney Pool, Cowboys - $1,200,000 - Signed thru 2012
Craig Dahl, Rams - $1,200,000 - Signed thru 2012
Reed Doughty, Redskins - $1,150,000 - Signed thru 2013
Pat Chung, Patriots - $1,115,000 - Signed thru 2012
C.J. Spillman, 49ers - $1,080,000 - Signed thru 2014
T.J. Ward, Browns - $1,058,750 - Signed thru 2013

WR:

Larry Fitzgerald, Cardinals - $13,250,000 - Signed thru 2018
Vincent Jackson, Buccaneers - $13,000,000 - Signed thru 2016
Darrius Heyward-Bey, Raiders - $10,409,000 - Signed thru 2013
Wes Welker, Patriots - $9,515,000 - Signed thru 2012
Brandon Marshall, Bears - $9,300,000 - Signed thru 2014
Calvin Johnson, Lions - $8,950,000 - Signed thru 2019
Sidney Rice, Seahawks - $8,200,000 - Signed thru 2015
Roddy White, Falcons - $8,075,000 - Signed thru 2014
Santonio Holmes, Jets - $8,000,000 - Signed thru 2015
Greg Jennings, Packers - $7,397,500 - Signed thru 2012
Jordy Nelson, Packers - $6,825,000 - Signed thru 2014
Mike Thomas, Jaguars - $6,000,000 - Signed thru 2015
Michael Crabtree, 49ers - $5,359,000 - Signed thru 2014
Laurent Robinson, Jaguars - $4,600,000 - Signed thru 2016
Steve Breaston, Chiefs - $4,600,000 - Signed thru 2015
Stevie Johnson, Bills - $4,575,000 - Signed thru 2016
Joshua Morgan, Redskins - $4,550,000 - Signed thru 2013
A.J. Green, Bengals - $4,472,413 - Signed thru 2014
Santana Moss, Redskins - $4,316,667 - Signed thru 2013
Donald Driver, Packers - $4,300,000 - Signed thru 2012
Pierre Garcon, Redskins - $4,300,000 - Signed thru 2016

 

[kidhawk]

I don't think Flynn has any interest in staying around.

I would rather pick up a rookie in the 4-7th then keep Flynn around.

Yes, this is a great idea, because this year's crop of quarterbacks is the new norm, and we should expect to get a guy in the late rounds of the draft who can come in and take us into the playoffs if something happens to Wilson.

Hey I have an idea, why not just keep the one qb on the team, that way we save all that money we normally waste on a backup. We could let RealRob or one of our other guys with previous qb experience play if Wilson gets hurt.

:sarcasm_off:

 

[Atradees]

Flynn is awesome.

If Sherm can command 14 million a year would you pay it?

 

[kidhawk]

it doesn't matter if those contracts expire lol.. we still have to resign or replace those players at those positions.. and those are total contracts.. not year to year cap hits so those numbers aren't the actual amount of money that will be free'd up from the cap...

so to go with your line of thought..

browner is making about 500k a year..
chancelor is making about 500k a year...
sherman is making about 500k a year....
tate is making about 500k a year.....
thomas is making 1.5 mill and 2.5 mill respectively in 2013 and 2014......

Yes I took out that long list of meaningless numbers, because I am trying to figure out what the hell you are talking about. NOBODY on your list is going to be a free agent, therefor none of them matter as far as the upcoming year is concerned cap-wise

I showed you the list of Free agents this off season. The only one on there that I think we would like to have back and should make a good salary is Jason Jones. I think Branch is upgradeable for the money he makes, although I'd keep him at a lower rate. None of our "stars" are free agents, so there is no money issue. Now, if you want to look ahead to the 2014 season, then there's something to discuss, but there is no cap issue coming off of this current season. We have the entire off season, and all of next year and the off season after that to worry about getting the 2013 guys re-signed. The only people we need to worry about as far as cap space is concerned in the coming year is the people on the list I put up there.

Come back next year if you want to worry about cap numbers for 2014 and beyond. There are WAY too many variables that will arise between now and then to even consider what kind of cap hit Flynn will be 2 years down the road.

Edit to add their current cap hits for you:

Jason Jones - $4.5 million
Leroy Hill - $1.6 million
Steven Hauschka - $1.26 million
Frank Omiyale - $1.225 million
Clint Gresham - $490 thousand
Charly Martin - $113.9 thousand
Chris Maragos - $540 thousand
Clinton McDonald - $540 thousand
Alan Branch - $4.55 million
Marcus Trufant - $1.3 m

Also, if you look at the link for the cap hits, there is a list of "dead money buyouts" some of this money is going to free up next year as well (some may have been a split and may carry over but the site doesn't say). This is approximately $9 million

 

[SonicHawk]

I don't think Flynn has any interest in staying around.

I would rather pick up a rookie in the 4-7th then keep Flynn around.

Yes, this is a great idea, because this year's crop of quarterbacks is the new norm, and we should expect to get a guy in the late rounds of the draft who can come in and take us into the playoffs if something happens to Wilson.

Hey I have an idea, why not just keep the one qb on the team, that way we save all that money we normally waste on a backup. We could let RealRob or one of our other guys with previous qb experience play if Wilson gets hurt.

:sarcasm_off:

If something happens to Wilson we're poo out of luck anyways. Why waste the money on a guy who hopefully never plays? This team isn't making the playoffs with Matt Flynn.

I would much rather put money into one of our many needs instead of paying our backup 10x more than our starting QB because we think that Flynn is 10x better than anything else we could get.

I'm not sold on Flynn, I don't see any reason why you would be. He looked marginal at best on Sun, he's a career backup and he got beat out by a rookie. Time to move on.