Is it me or was Shaun Alexander a wuss

AnimeAmore

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My opinion of him has softened over time. What I (and many others) viewed as "soft" was actually just him not taking unnecessary hits. He wasn't a bruiser who would wear the defense down through tough running, he was a guy who made the whole defense chase after him and eventually get tired so he could bust out a huge run.
Yes, he had a fantastic OL blocking for him, but getting 5 yards and then getting flattened isn't exactly conducive to busting out a huge run later on. He got the yards he could get and then protected himself so he'd be good for the next play.
 

DarkVictory23

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The 'Shaun is soft' narrative is just garbage, pure and simple. Just watch the highlights of his 5 TD half (yes, HALF) against Minnesota to see his whole skillset.

That said, I think there are two main reasons why this narrative never dies, one comes from the type of people who like to spout this tired nonsense and one based on Shaun's skills.

I won't discuss the first one because I've already had that discussion multiple times over the years and you get nowhere.

But the Shaun skillset one is worth discussing and appreciating.

First of all, let's get one thing straight: Shaun absolutely was running behind an all-time offensive line and he had one of the best blocking FBs as his mate in the back field. That's huge for any RB.

But the idea that 'any' other RB could just come in and duplicate (or best) his numbers is nonsense because one of the things Shaun had in absolute spades is his vision. He had some of the best awareness of any RB in NFL history, let alone in Seahawks history.

Any decent RB could find some of the holes created by our OL and hit them hard for 5, 6, 7 yards a pop. But that's not what made Shaun special. No, hitting that hole was only where he got started. No, Shaun would already see the next hole, maybe 6 or 7 yards to his right that wasn't created by a HOF LT but by one of his WR that created just the tiniest seam that most RBs wouldn't even notice.

Now, Shaun's not only hitting this other, much less obvious hole, he's taking it at an angle that completely flummoxes the second level defenders. Then, when it looks like he's taking it easy and the safety thinks he's about to wrap Shaun up, Alexander turns on the jets. Boom, 3 & 4 at the 40 is now another Shaun Alexander TD.

Shaun didn't run over guys like Marshawn Lynch, but he didn't just go untouched non-stop either. He was constantly dropping defenders who just got the slimmest grasp of his arm or foot because he had such great vision, cut-back ability, knew angles better than any RB you've ever seen in a Seahawk uniform, and had ridiculous acceleration that he was constantly keeping these guys from even being in a spot to run them over. He simply left them with crossed feet and broken ankles in a cloud of his dust.


I get it. I love Marshawn's style, too, and watching an RB shove some poor CB somewhere into next week is fun as heck. But Shaun Alexander was a helluva talent and one of the best to ever put on a Seahawk uniform.
 

OrangeGravy

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Calculating was definitely a part of it. But the calculation was most definitely far more heavily weighted on himself than the team needs.
Go back and watch a pass protection rep of SA. Beyond pathetic efforts. Selfish is an understatement, I'd say
 

calinator

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I hated his soft running style and not trying to get the tough yards. HOWEVER, because of that I kept a close eye on him in SBXL and appreciated how much he fought for yardage and left it all out there in that game.
 

SmokinHawk

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Shaun made a lot of business decisions, especially in 2006. Was he good? Yes. Was he great? Eh, debateable. Of course, he'd tell you to look at the tape because "he's still got it".
 

keasley45

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I see him similarly to Emmitt Smith. Was he a good running back? Yup. Was he the best just because he put up so many stats behind Dallas's o-line that he eclipsed Sweetness? F No. He has the best stats all time but there are 4 or 5 backs that were better than he was. Just like SA in Seattle. He's the 3rd best back in franchise history.

The dude was provided the best o line you could ever want.

Most greats also did things like protected well, because, you know, football is a physical, contact sport. Alexander? Psshhh.

Give him a decent hole or a cutback crease and hed find it and hit it.

Let it be 3rd and 1 against a solid D line that managed to get a guy in the backfield to hit him before he reached the line? Call on the punt team.

Like i've said before, even his own coach was reluctant to just outright give him props. Holmgren knew 100% what was up.
 

Fresno Hawk

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Did having one of the best left side of offensive line help yes. But wuss, no! Playing running back in the NFL is brutal especially at the Era he played in. There was less rules that helped the offenses.
 

DarkVictory23

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I see him similarly to Emmitt Smith. Was he a good running back? Yup. Was he the best just because he put up so many stats behind Dallas's o-line that he eclipsed Sweetness? F No. He has the best stats all time but there are 4 or 5 backs that were better than he was. Just like SA in Seattle. He's the 3rd best back in franchise history.

The dude was provided the best o line you could ever want.

Most greats also did things like protected well, because, you know, football is a physical, contact sport. Alexander? Psshhh.

Give him a decent hole or a cutback crease and hed find it and hit it.

Let it be 3rd and 1 against a solid D line that managed to get a guy in the backfield to hit him before he reached the line? Call on the punt team.

Like i've said before, even his own coach was reluctant to just outright give him props. Holmgren knew 100% what was up.
This seems like revisionist history or, at least, not exactly the whole picture. Get a guy in the backfield and hit him before he get to the line on 3rd and 1 and he might not get a first down? Yeah, but that's like every RB in history.

Career for career, Shaun had a better success rate than Marshawn or Ricky on 3rd and 4th and short. During Shaun's best year, he got stopped on 3rd and 4th and short only ONE time for an over 95% success rate. Marshawn's best two years he was 65-ish% in 2013 and 40%(!) in 2012.

I mean, this is one of those unfalsifiable positions, right? Shaun was really good on 3rd and short, so it must be his line. The times he did get stopped, well, his line was good, so it must be because he was 'soft'.

Lynch performs worse, but we've already decided he's 'tough', so it must be the line's fault.


Sure, Holmgren wasn't effusive at all times for his star RB. But, like... who was he like that for? And he has been perfectly complimentary since they've both retired.

The biggest knock was that Shaun was a bad pass blocking RB which, he mostly was, but he got better at that, too.
 

keasley45

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This seems like revisionist history or, at least, not exactly the whole picture. Get a guy in the backfield and hit him before he get to the line on 3rd and 1 and he might not get a first down? Yeah, but that's like every RB in history.

Career for career, Shaun had a better success rate than Marshawn or Ricky on 3rd and 4th and short. During Shaun's best year, he got stopped on 3rd and 4th and short only ONE time for an over 95% success rate. Marshawn's best two years he was 65-ish% in 2013 and 40%(!) in 2012.

I mean, this is one of those unfalsifiable positions, right? Shaun was really good on 3rd and short, so it must be his line. The times he did get stopped, well, his line was good, so it must be because he was 'soft'.

Lynch performs worse, but we've already decided he's 'tough', so it must be the line's fault.


Sure, Holmgren wasn't effusive at all times for his star RB. But, like... who was he like that for? And he has been perfectly complimentary since they've both retired.

The biggest knock was that Shaun was a bad pass blocking RB which, he mostly was, but he got better at that, too.
When more often than not, he was brought down when he didnt get to the line untouched, yeah. Marshawn and Watters were absolutely better. In any instance where you were to evaluate shaun 1v1 aganst Ricky, Lynch or Warner without the influence of the o line - elusiveness, ability to start and stop / change direction, power, etc. Alexander doesnt come close.

What i dont understand is how anyone can say - he wasnt as good as tbise other 3 at this or that, but he could hit a hole or had great vision, etc. Is the argument seriously that those other backs COULDNT do what he did , ie hit a hole, escape via great vision??

Have you seen the beast quake run? There was a sliver of daylight. A sliver, and Marshawn found it. Watters? If there wasn't a hole, he would make it.

The argument just doesnt hold.
 

keasley45

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This seems like revisionist history or, at least, not exactly the whole picture. Get a guy in the backfield and hit him before he get to the line on 3rd and 1 and he might not get a first down? Yeah, but that's like every RB in history.

Career for career, Shaun had a better success rate than Marshawn or Ricky on 3rd and 4th and short. During Shaun's best year, he got stopped on 3rd and 4th and short only ONE time for an over 95% success rate. Marshawn's best two years he was 65-ish% in 2013 and 40%(!) in 2012.

I mean, this is one of those unfalsifiable positions, right? Shaun was really good on 3rd and short, so it must be his line. The times he did get stopped, well, his line was good, so it must be because he was 'soft'.

Lynch performs worse, but we've already decided he's 'tough', so it must be the line's fault.


Sure, Holmgren wasn't effusive at all times for his star RB. But, like... who was he like that for? And he has been perfectly complimentary since they've both retired.

The biggest knock was that Shaun was a bad pass blocking RB which, he mostly was, but he got better at that, too.
Also, if you look at Shaun vs Lynch in rush success rate Lynch is head and shoulders better. Thats a stat that tracks how suucessful a run is based on whether the runner gained a determined percentage of yardage on 1st, 2nd and 3rd downs - 40, 60 and 100 respectively.

If the career stats say Lynch was better in that regard, but Shaun is close in yards and better by .1 in career average, that points to a runner who broke a lot of long runs. And that bears out stats wise as well as a quick examination of his highlight reel shows 80% of his runs, esoecially the long ones, he gets through the line untouched and defenders are forced to tackle him when hes almost at full speed.

So if Lynch had an equal ypc average , and was more successful on downs 1 through three, but didnt have nearly the number of long runs (runs shaun got by a wide margin because he was hitting the 2nd level at top speed), hiw could he not be seen as better? Or, in what regard can Shaun be at all seen as superior in some category? Ill give him top speed.

And if he wasnt as good as Lynch, he cant be in the same caregory as Warner. The only one you can argue that he might have been better than was Watters just by virtue of raw stats. But even against Watters, ... Ricky was one of the best all around backs of all time. Speed, power, blocking, receiving. Ive never heard shaun talked about as the best in any of those categories. His reputation is based solely on his stats.
 

keasley45

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And if anyone has access to statmuse or pff advanced stats, od love to know how shaun compares to others discussed based on YBC and YAC. Those are two telling stats. Id wager Shaun is considerably higher in yards before contact and lower in yards after contact.


Here's another list of 'signature stats', ie stats that are more easily separated from those that can be attributed to other groups like O line and are directly attributable to the quality and talent of a player. It doesn't go back to the glory days of Sanders and Payton, but it contains the contemporary greats. Lynch is on it several times in multiple categories.

It doesn't contain TDs or yards per season... so Alexander doesn't appear.
 

DarkVictory23

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Also, if you look at Shaun vs Lynch in rush success rate Lynch is head and shoulders better. Thats a stat that tracks how suucessful a run is based on whether the runner gained a determined percentage of yardage on 1st, 2nd and 3rd downs - 40, 60 and 100 respectively.

If the career stats say Lynch was better in that regard, but Shaun is close in yards and better by .1 in career average, that points to a runner who broke a lot of long runs. And that bears out stats wise as well as a quick examination of his highlight reel shows 80% of his runs, esoecially the long ones, he gets through the line untouched and defenders are forced to tackle him when hes almost at full speed.

So if Lynch had an equal ypc average , and was more successful on downs 1 through three, but didnt have nearly the number of long runs (runs shaun got by a wide margin because he was hitting the 2nd level at top speed), hiw could he not be seen as better? Or, in what regard can Shaun be at all seen as superior in some category? Ill give him top speed.

And if he wasnt as good as Lynch, he cant be in the same caregory as Warner. The only one you can argue that he might have been better than was Watters just by virtue of raw stats. But even against Watters, ... Ricky was one of the best all around backs of all time. Speed, power, blocking, receiving. Ive never heard shaun talked about as the best in any of those categories. His reputation is based solely on his stats.
Except, he wasn't 'head and shoulders' above Shaun, he was roughly in the same category (44.3 vs. 46.7 for their careers) and Shaun's numbers were brought down significantly by his numbers post broken foot whereas Marshawn only has his extremely short second stint with the Seahawks bringing his numbers down. Nobody who says Shaun was great is thinking he was great in 2006 or 07.

And this is where we get into the bit about thinking Shaun was a liability on third and short or only the beneficiary of his O-Line, so I compared across the three best seasons with the 'Hawks for Watters, Alexander, and Lynch on third and fourth and short but ALSO the respective backups across those years for each.

Watters had a 59% success rate, the backups 57%. Lynch, 69% to 65%.

Alexander? 74% to 65%.

Not only was Shaun MUCH more reliable on those third down but he was the only one who thoroughly, statistically outperformed his backups who had the exact same line blocking for him.

The idea that he was weak on third/fourth and short was a self-reinforcing myth. He did good, people just give the credit to the line. When he failed? It's 'cause he's soft.


Also, those PFF signature stats don't include Alexander because they only go back to 2006.
 

keasley45

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Except, he wasn't 'head and shoulders' above Shaun, he was roughly in the same category (44.3 vs. 46.7 for their careers) and Shaun's numbers were brought down significantly by his numbers post broken foot whereas Marshawn only has his extremely short second stint with the Seahawks bringing his numbers down. Nobody who says Shaun was great is thinking he was great in 2006 or 07.

And this is where we get into the bit about thinking Shaun was a liability on third and short or only the beneficiary of his O-Line, so I compared across the three best seasons with the 'Hawks for Watters, Alexander, and Lynch on third and fourth and short but ALSO the respective backups across those years for each.

Watters had a 59% success rate, the backups 57%. Lynch, 69% to 65%.

Alexander? 74% to 65%.

Not only was Shaun MUCH more reliable on those third down but he was the only one who thoroughly, statistically outperformed his backups who had the exact same line blocking for him.

The idea that he was weak on third/fourth and short was a self-reinforcing myth. He did good, people just give the credit to the line. When he failed? It's 'cause he's soft.


Also, those PFF signature stats don't include Alexander because they only go back to 2006.

Didn't Alexander play in 06?

But fair enough.

Broken tackles. Yards after contact. Yards before contact. Talk to me about those because they more accurately speak to a backs individual ability.

And the success rate stat only looks good for Shaun when you average it. Sort the success column high to low for both and Lynch is consistently better.

And for all the talk about 'not every runner is a tough, bruising type' as a defense for Shaun's soft style for the sake of extending his career... Shaun took and gave out far less punishment and broke much sooner than Lynch, who ran harder, got the tougher yards, broke more tackles, got more yards after contact, and played for far less talented an o line, in far less a dynamic asystem than Shaun. Shoot, AP played longer and had better 'rb' stats as well.

And Lynch had chronic back problems for most of his career. Not just 2 down seasons like Shaun with his foot.

Shaun has TDs and yards. I think Maurice Morrus averaged a solid 4.3 plus avg in Seattle behind the same o line.

If Mauruce Morris averaged what he did behind that line, what do you think Lynch would have done? Unless you are also saying Morris had some superior gift that Lynch didn't as well? What would LaDainian have done? Faulk? Ahman Green? Priest Holmes? They would have done as well, as if not better. BtW, they all also ran harder than Shaun and played as long, if not longer. And that's just a small sample group .

Look, I'm glad we had him. But even when he was racking up his best stats, the tape on him as a 'rb' outside of our O line just wasn't eye popping, the way it was for the true greats. And I put Lynch in that category.

Lynch could make a guy miss in a phone booth (for you youngsters, us old folk used to have to go into 7 ft tall x 3ft x 3ft glass and metal boxes with accordian doors to make phone calls) . He could run over you, through you, around you. He had unreal balance and strength. And he could juke the Sox off of the best defenders.

Ray Lewis, anyone?


Ray Lewis :
where did he go?

The other guy who's ankles Lynch broke:
Where did whhooo go?

Lynch was an outstanding back for everything he could do. Not just the punishing runs.

And I've also said this before. Even his HC was reluctant to give him the credit for all he did because he was also critical of him not getting the tough yards and capitalizing on his o line's play. MIKE HOLMGREN, who btw lauded Ricky Watters, never saw Shaun as 'that guy'.

That speaks volumes.
 

morgulon1

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This. SA is one of my least favorite Hawks of all time.

I agree . He was a good player , maybe even great at times . He did benefit from a generationally great offensive line that many could've had success from. He would go down like a folding lawn chair when he had 3-5 more yards in front of him . He did this for a season then said Holmgren "stabbed him in the back" when he lost the rushing title by a few yards.

I don't think I'd call him a wuss but he definitely wasn't a hard nose type .
 

scutterhawk

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I agree . He was a good player , maybe even great at times . He did benefit from a generationally great offensive line that many could've had success from. He would go down like a folding lawn chair when he had 3-5 more yards in front of him . He did this for a season then said Holmgren "stabbed him in the back" when he lost the rushing title by a few yards.

I don't think I'd call him a wuss but he definitely wasn't a hard nose type .
Nope, he was just PROLIFIC, and "Mr. Automatic" in the Red Zone....NOT ALL his hard runs were to the LEFT, and as far as ABILITY?, Avail-Ability is #1, ESPECIALLY when it comes to playing the RB position.
AIN'T taking anything away from Marshawn, because he was something very special, But I ALSO ain't taking anything away from SEHAWKS Player-> Saun Alexander either...The fall-off of Alexander when Hutchinson crapped on the Seahawks organization and left for the Vikings, he did have an injury that absolutely does account for his drop-off in productivity.
Way too much ANYMOSITY for Sean Alexander, here on .NET,I mean after all>> he was one of OUR Seahawks players.
We don't need to dump on one Seahawk to tout another, they were BOTH special players in their own way.
No Regrets from this Seahawks fan.
 

morgulon1

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Nope, he was just PROLIFIC, and "Mr. Automatic" in the Red Zone....NOT ALL his hard runs were to the LEFT, and as far as ABILITY?, Avail-Ability is #1, ESPECIALLY when it comes to playing the RB position.
AIN'T taking anything away from Marshawn, because he was something very special, But I ALSO ain't taking anything away from SEHAWKS Player-> Saun Alexander either...The fall-off of Alexander when Hutchinson crapped on the Seahawks organization and left for the Vikings, he did have an injury that absolutely does account for his drop-off in productivity.
Way too much ANYMOSITY for Sean Alexander, here on .NET,I mean after all>> he was one of OUR Seahawks players.
We don't need to dump on one Seahawk to tout another, they were BOTH special players in their own way.
No Regrets from this Seahawks fan.

I guess I didn't communicate my 💕 love profusely enough for Shaun Alexander.

I did like him but not as much as others on here. I don't think he'd have any more success than the other RBs if he were
on todays team.

The OP question was whether people thought he was a wuss. I said I didn't think he was , I just didn't think he was like Larry Czonka or even #24.

How did you get that as " dumping on him"?
 

BASF

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Everyone who talks about him folding after Hutchitraitor left either does not know or care that he cracked his foot in the first game. Continued to play on it due to stupidity (redacting the reason here, cuz it is caustic) until it was fully broken and Holmgren shut him down. Would a wuss play on a cracked foot? His stupidity cost him a lot of his smooth gliding and acceleration that were exceptional before the injury. The fact that you wanted him to play like Earl Campbell to make you respect him does not make him a wuss. Campbell ended up in a wheel chair for your information. I wonder if he regretted his playing style that you all so admired?
 
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