How are we so Cap strapped?

[TheRealDTM]

Pay your high-end core talents: Russ, Marshawn, Jimmy, Bennett, Avril, Wagner, Wright, Sherm, Thomas, Chancellor, probably Baldwin soon

Take your medicine and unfortunately understand that you can't pay your middle class what other teams are willing to: Breno, Carp, Golden, Browner, Maxwell, Thurmond, Malcolm, probably Bruce, Kearse, Lane and Sweezy

Throw in a couple bad things, which all teams have: Harvin, Cary

Eliminate the middle class and get good return from guys on the cheap : Rawls, Lockett, Willson, Clark, Shead, McCray and hopefully Glowinski and this years rookie class.

Seattle has essentially eliminated the middle class and is reliant upon young guys capably fleshing out the roster around the stars.

Yeah this is a great breakdown, and maybe we hit on a draft pick or 2 like we usually do. However the two previous years we had hands down the best roster in the NFL, last year we did not Den and Car had better rosters and arguably Ari as well, our team is not going to get any better this off season, I don't see how we get back to a superbowl if we just continuously lose talent. Take GB they had arguably a similiar talent level as us last year, they are going to get better or stay the same this offseason (and get jordy back) we are going to lose our LT, RG, CB2, WR2 and ROLB

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The Broncos are probably a better example http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/denver-broncos

The Broncos have the same cap space as us (17M), and the only reason it's this high is because Manning's finally off their books.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/

And that's before all their players get cherry picked by other teams and they have to try to keep their core intact like we did two years ago. They already failed at trying to give Miller a long term deal, and had to franchise him. So let's see where they are in a couple months, my guess is down to almost zero cap space.

Do you honestly think the Broncos are in a better position after their SB win than we were? Hell no, they went out, got a bunch of high priced free agents on the defense, and it worked out. Good for them, but no one thinks they're going to win the SB next year.

 

[EverydayImRusselin]

Pay your high-end core talents: Russ, Marshawn, Jimmy, Bennett, Avril, Wagner, Wright, Sherm, Thomas, Chancellor, probably Baldwin soon

Take your medicine and unfortunately understand that you can't pay your middle class what other teams are willing to: Breno, Carp, Golden, Browner, Maxwell, Thurmond, Malcolm, probably Bruce, Kearse, Lane and Sweezy

Throw in a couple bad things, which all teams have: Harvin, Cary

Eliminate the middle class and get good return from guys on the cheap : Rawls, Lockett, Willson, Clark, Shead, McCray and hopefully Glowinski and this years rookie class.

Seattle has essentially eliminated the middle class and is reliant upon young guys capably fleshing out the roster around the stars.

Yeah this is a great breakdown, and maybe we hit on a draft pick or 2 like we usually do. However the two previous years we had hands down the best roster in the NFL, last year we did not Den and Car had better rosters and arguably Ari as well, our team is not going to get any better this off season, I don't see how we get back to a superbowl if we just continuously lose talent. Take GB they had arguably a similiar talent level as us last year, they are going to get better or stay the same this offseason (and get jordy back) we are going to lose our LT, RG, CB2, WR2 and ROLB

That would be due to the lack of talent drafted in 2013/2014. If you look at those 2 drafts there are no Lockett/Clark level players to help us take advantage of the low salary. This is the way the modern NFL is structured. Look at GB, Pitt, NE. All their talent injections are from the draft primarily.

 

[TheRealDTM]

Do you honestly think the Broncos are in a better position after their SB win than we were? Hell no, they went out, got a bunch of high priced free agents on the defense, and it worked out. Good for them, but no one thinks they're going to win the SB next year.

I don't see why they wouldn't be the favorite, if they keep osweiler, they are going to lose Malick Jackson is all. Or just look at Carolina they are nearly our mirror imagine (Newton, Norman, Kuechly) (and are going to get Kelvin Benjamin back) they are going to see less attrition than us this year. PC/JS did a great job of putting together a team 3 years ago but have been I think shit at maintaining it.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Do you honestly think the Broncos are in a better position after their SB win than we were? Hell no, they went out, got a bunch of high priced free agents on the defense, and it worked out. Good for them, but no one thinks they're going to win the SB next year.

I don't see why they wouldn't be the favorite, if they keep osweiler, they are going to lose Malick Jackson is all. Or just look at Carolina they are nearly our mirror imagine (Newton, Norman, Kuechly) (and are going to get Kelvin Benjamin back) they are going to see less attrition than us this year. PC/JS did a great job of putting together a team 3 years ago but have been I think shit at maintaining it.

Vegas has them at 14-1 odds, far behind us, the Patriots and Steelers.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/supe ... cos-020716

I'd love to have more cap space. But IMO if we're going to go back to the SB, we need the players we gave a lot of money to play like their contracts. No more down years from guys like Earl, Graham, Kam, etc.

The great teams sparingly use free agency, sustained success is built from within.

 

[Basis4day]

PC/JS did a great job of putting together a team 3 years ago but have been I think shit at maintaining it.

You can do a lot more in FA when you don't need to pay your recently drafted players anything for a couple years.

They've now starting rewarding the players that got them there in the first place to the tune of 1 SB win, 2 SB appearances, and at least a playoff win in each of Wilson's 4 seasons.

 

[Tical21]

The problem we're going to run into, is that we have drafted like garbage. Lane is up, we've drafted some CB's, who is going to replace him? Nobody. Bruce Irvin is going to leave, who is going to replace him? Nobody. We have to re-sign Rubin because Jordan Hill, Jesse Williams and whoever else we have drafted all suck. We had to go pay a TE 9 million because Luke Willson sucks. Who is going to play X-receiver this year? We haven't developed anything above an almost average player on the O-Line. We got lucky and got Rawls, otherwise we'd be in big trouble there because the guys we drafted suck. Paying all of your players works if you develop good, cheap players behind them, and we are really struggling with that process, and it just might leave some holes that we can't magically cover up.

 

[EverydayImRusselin]

PC/JS did a great job of putting together a team 3 years ago but have been I think shit at maintaining it.

You can do a lot more in FA when you don't need to pay your recently drafted players anything for a couple years.

They've now starting rewarding the players that got them there in the first place to the tune of 1 SB win, 2 SB appearances, and at least a playoff win in each of Wilson's 4 seasons.

When you crush 3 straight draft classes you can have the deepest roster in the league. Once you have to pay those guys though you have to hope to crush a few more drafts and have the right core mix of players who can get you there. I think we have almost the exact core we need short of an average OL and maybe another pass rusher. Really that's all you can ask for. Now if the stars align we can get back to the SB and win our 2nd.

 

[Alexander]

Sounds like the OP is upset that we don't have enough cap space to re-sign literally every one of our guys. Isn't it common knowledge that no team can do that? Frankly, I think the FO has done a phenomenal job of holding on to the key players. If it had been me, I probably would have let a few more of them go. But considering how many expensive contracts have gone out the last several years, it's kind of amazing we have any cap space at all. And if you look at cap flexibility (arguably a much better measure of cap health than cap space), we're in great shape going forward.

The bottom line is this: you can't pay all of your guys. Period. End of story. The issue is whether you can retain the key guys and, crucially, replace the guys that left with cheap draft talent. The cap is a bit of a red herring. It's all about finding talent in the draft. That's what determines whether a team is going to stay competitive for the long haul.

On that note, the 2013/2014 drafts were disappointing, and arguably the reason the team has slipped a bit since SB48. But last year's draft was great. Hopefully this year's will be, too.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The problem we're going to run into, is that we have drafted like garbage.

You mean like Rawls, Clark and the rookie of the year nominee Tyler Lockett?

And if Simon wasn't more brittle than a leaf that's been left in the sun too long, he'd be our starting corner right now. Even so, Shead came in and played well.

So not sure where the draft criticism comes from. Yes our 2014 draft wasn't the best, but other than that draft class we've drafted better than any other team in the league in the PC/JS era........and it's not even close.

 

[kobebryant]

Rosters as good as 2013's are almost impossible to replicate, and there hasn't been one as good as that in the NFL since - Maxwell, Thurmond, Avril and Bennett were backups - that's insane depth. That team had to win the Super Bowl, but also set the bar unrealistically high in a salary cap league.

The roster that starts 2016 won't be as good as that one, but is plenty good enough to contend for the Super Bowl given the career arc that the QB is on.

 

[DJrmb]

I don't understand where the opinion of us being strapped for cash comes from. I've heard it mentioned on here a lot this offseason but that is not correct at all. This front office has "Tetrised" huge contracts together masterfully and has us in a very good position this year and for the next few years. Bottom line is if they wanted to they could afford to bring in any free agent on the market and not have to cut anyone to do so. We haven't even had to tap into the millions we could drum up if we wanted to approach guys and restructure their deals (just moving money, not even talking about pay cuts)

They choose not to be heavily involved in free agency for many reasons, one of which is because they are building for sustainability and not looking at a "window" like so many fans tend to. What was the Patriots "window"? They've competed for championship for how many years now? We need to stop worrying about a "window" and realize that sustained success is the best approach to win multiple championships in today's NFL. The front office has a plan and they are sticking to it and that's why we have been and will continue to be one of the most talented teams in the most competitive conference in football.

 

[Popeyejones]

Longer answer to follow. :lol:

A MISTAKE PEOPLE MAKE IN THINKING ABOUT THE CAP AND CAP ROOM:

One mistake people make is that they think of team's salary cap in one year blocks (i.e. how much cap space do the Hawks have this year), but teams manage their salary caps in three year blocks (i.e. in paying this FA we need to think about this year, next year, and the year after that).

By next year the real, real money of all of the Seahawks' signings has come home to roost. I don't remember the exact #s but the team is near the top of the league in salary cap money already assigned and near the bottom of the league in # of players under contract that money is going to. That tells you what you need to know.

So, it's possible for them to hit FA this year with some big FA signings with low dollar amounts in year 1, but they aren't doing that and can't do that because they don't have the money to do that in years 2 and 3 of those contracts.

TWO REASONS WHY THE SEAHAWKS ARE CASH STRAPPED:

1) The Seahawks are cash-strapped because almost all of their talent is clustered in the same age bracket, and it's a very expensive one.

The Seahwawks may have had the best 24-36 month run of talent acquisition in NFL history. Save for Bennett all of their talent is really in the same age window though, now right in or just entering their prime. Most NFL teams have a wider age distribution in their talent, which benefits them from a cap perspective, because talented players on their first deals and talented players on their third or fourth deals are cheaper, because you don't have to pay for someone's prime. Long story short, second contracts for talented players are the most expensive contracts, and the Seahawks talent is almost entirely on second contracts. Rather than letting some of these guys walk and hopin to replace them on draft picks on first contracts or shoring up the draft failures short term with guys on third and fourth contracts, the Seahawks now have almost all of their talent on second deals.


2) The Seahawks are using a super-star strategy that's typical to the NBA but more atypical in the NFL.

In the NBA the goal is to get two superstars, 1 nice mid-level piece, and then fill out the rest of your roster for practically nothing. Because of that being a good but not great player in the NBA really sucks compared to the NFL. Most NFL teams will let one pro-bowler walk in order to pay for above average players at two or three (or four) more positions. It's more a team sport, the thinking goes.

The Seahawks don't do that though, so with each passing year, the above average players on their roster (e.g. the Tates, Red Bryants, Maxwells, Okungs, Irvins, etc. of the world) ship out, because the money that would go to them goes instead to the superstars. (The lone exception to this is Wright.) As a result the Seahawks don't have nearly as many mid-level contracts as most other teams. They have superstars, they have guys on their first deals, and they have UDFAs. This strategy hasn't really been tried before in the NFL, so it could work, and it could not. It's definitely fun to watch though, and it contributes to the idea of being cash-strapped, as bringing in above average rotational depth isn't really part of the Seahawks' agenda. They're either going to pay through the nose in salary and/or trade at the top of the market (e.g. Harvin, Jimmy, and Cary Williams (you guys gave me so much crap for saying the Hawks overpaid for him at the top of the market :lol: )), or they're going to get up to 53 with minimum salaries for guys they've plucked out of the land of misfit toys (e.g. UDFAs, and people nobody else wants).

 

[Tical21]

The problem we're going to run into, is that we have drafted like garbage.

You mean like Rawls, Clark and the rookie of the year nominee Tyler Lockett?

And if Simon wasn't more brittle than a leaf that's been left in the sun too long, he'd be our starting corner right now. Even so, Shead came in and played well.

So not sure where the draft criticism comes from. Yes our 2014 draft wasn't the best, but other than that draft class we've drafted better than any other team in the league in the PC/JS era........and it's not even close.

There isn't a single above-average player from the 2013 draft. Nor the 2014 draft. Besides Lockett and probably Clark, the 2015 draft looks full of marginal-at-best players as well. That might not be fair, probably too early to comment on that one. Two players in a 3-year draft span is not going to replenish your team when you are leaking good vets every year.

 

[kf3339]

The problem we're going to run into, is that we have drafted like garbage. Lane is up, we've drafted some CB's, who is going to replace him? Nobody. Bruce Irvin is going to leave, who is going to replace him? Nobody. We have to re-sign Rubin because Jordan Hill, Jesse Williams and whoever else we have drafted all suck. We had to go pay a TE 9 million because Luke Willson sucks. Who is going to play X-receiver this year? We haven't developed anything above an almost average player on the O-Line. We got lucky and got Rawls, otherwise we'd be in big trouble there because the guys we drafted suck. Paying all of your players works if you develop good, cheap players behind them, and we are really struggling with that process, and it just might leave some holes that we can't magically cover up.

^This.

I couldn't have said it any better.

 

[kf3339]

Longer answer to follow. :lol:

A MISTAKE PEOPLE MAKE IN THINKING ABOUT THE CAP AND CAP ROOM:

One mistake people make is that they think of team's salary cap in one year blocks (i.e. how much cap space do the Hawks have this year), but teams manage their salary caps in three year blocks (i.e. in paying this FA we need to think about this year, next year, and the year after that).

By next year the real, real money of all of the Seahawks' signings has come home to roost. I don't remember the exact #s but the team is near the top of the league in salary cap money already assigned and near the bottom of the league in # of players under contract that money is going to. That tells you what you need to know.

So, it's possible for them to hit FA this year with some big FA signings with low dollar amounts in year 1, but they aren't doing that and can't do that because they don't have the money to do that in years 2 and 3 of those contracts.

TWO REASONS WHY THE SEAHAWKS ARE CASH STRAPPED:

1) The Seahawks are cash-strapped because almost all of their talent is clustered in the same age bracket, and it's a very expensive one.

The Seahwawks may have had the best 24-36 month run of talent acquisition in NFL history. Save for Bennett all of their talent is really in the same age window though, now right in or just entering their prime. Most NFL teams have a wider age distribution in their talent, which benefits them from a cap perspective, because talented players on their first deals and talented players on their third or fourth deals are cheaper, because you don't have to pay for someone's prime. Long story short, second contracts for talented players are the most expensive contracts, and the Seahawks talent is almost entirely on second contracts. Rather than letting some of these guys walk and hopin to replace them on draft picks on first contracts or shoring up the draft failures short term with guys on third and fourth contracts, the Seahawks now have almost all of their talent on second deals.


2) The Seahawks are using a super-star strategy that's typical to the NBA but more atypical in the NFL.

In the NBA the goal is to get two superstars, 1 nice mid-level piece, and then fill out the rest of your roster for practically nothing. Because of that being a good but not great player in the NBA really sucks compared to the NFL. Most NFL teams will let one pro-bowler walk in order to pay for above average players at two or three (or four) more positions. It's more a team sport, the thinking goes.

The Seahawks don't do that though, so with each passing year, the above average players on their roster (e.g. the Tates, Red Bryants, Maxwells, Okungs, Irvins, etc. of the world) ship out, because the money that would go to them goes instead to the superstars. (The lone exception to this is Wright.) As a result the Seahawks don't have nearly as many mid-level contracts as most other teams. They have superstars, they have guys on their first deals, and they have UDFAs. This strategy hasn't really been tried before in the NFL, so it could work, and it could not. It's definitely fun to watch though, and it contributes to the idea of being cash-strapped, as bringing in above average rotational depth isn't really part of the Seahawks' agenda. They're either going to pay through the nose in salary and/or trade at the top of the market (e.g. Harvin, Jimmy, and Cary Williams (you guys gave me so much crap for saying the Hawks overpaid for him at the top of the market :lol: )), or they're going to get up to 53 with minimum salaries for guys they've plucked out of the land of misfit toys (e.g. UDFAs, and people nobody else wants).

If what you are saying is true, then we are done for this
SB ride. No team can adapt that strategy and seriously stay in the SB competition window. We will slowly become mediocre.

 

[Hawks46]

I'm not saying its a good strategy, the Dolphins are obviously horrible but they are 15m over us in cap spent with 7m in dead money and they are able to bring in veterans and trade for big contract players. Just seems odd

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/miami-dolphins

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/seattle-seahawks

The Dolphins's pages haven't accounted for Maxwell, Alonso, and supposedly Mario Williams yet. Their cap allocation is going to change. Tannehill and Suh also have a pretty significant cap jump after next season.

We spent the last two seasons getting big contract players and rewarding players already on the roster. Our cap space is going to look different, so you can't really take a single year comparison between two teams like that.

Yea, I don't understand how they can stay under the cap with all these guys they're paying a TON to. In 2 years, they're going to be the Redskins of 3 years ago. It's going to be a fire sale.

 

[BullHawk33]

This league continues to be draft centric. The teams that do the best jobs of finding talent and the teams that do the best job of helping that talent develop to play the best that they can play are the more successful teams.

Unfortunately, that means that there are tough decisions that have to be made and 15 players is quite a few to have to make happy. Chances are, after 2016, there is going to be a tough decision or two coming for us. I would expect that to be a year to year issue though for a highly successful team.

 

[Popeyejones]

If what you are saying is true, then we are done for this
SB ride. No team can adapt that strategy and seriously stay in the SB competition window. We will slowly become mediocre.

I wouldn't automatically make that conclusion at all.

IMO the Seahawks are trying something nobody has tried before, so it's hard to predict what the result of it will be.

Personally I think they've got as good of a shot with this strategy as they would with another one.

It likely won't ever be as easy as it was a few years ago, but at the same time, I think people have to have a reasonable expectation of what success is:

If over a ten year period a team can make it into the playoffs in almost every year and maybe even come away with a Super Bowl or two it's one of the best teams of that decade.

Put another way, getting knocked out in the divisional round, winning a Super Bowl, losing a Super Bowl and getting knocked out in the divisional round isn't a downward trend from "Super Bowl win", it's a four year trend of unmitigated success that only the best NFL teams accomplish.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The problem we're going to run into, is that we have drafted like garbage.

You mean like Rawls, Clark and the rookie of the year nominee Tyler Lockett?

And if Simon wasn't more brittle than a leaf that's been left in the sun too long, he'd be our starting corner right now. Even so, Shead came in and played well.

So not sure where the draft criticism comes from. Yes our 2014 draft wasn't the best, but other than that draft class we've drafted better than any other team in the league in the PC/JS era........and it's not even close.

There isn't a single above-average player from the 2013 draft. Nor the 2014 draft. Besides Lockett and probably Clark, the 2015 draft looks full of marginal-at-best players as well. That might not be fair, probably too early to comment on that one. Two players in a 3-year draft span is not going to replenish your team when you are leaking good vets every year.

I'd argue that Willson is an above average player from 2013, he's our most productive TE..........and KPL, Britt, Marsh and Richardson before he got hurt have been good depth.

btw, two years we didn't even have a 1st round pick.

But you didn't specify 2013 and 2014, you said "we drafted like garbage"...........which just isn't true, the majority of our stars are fantastic draft picks, the very core of our SB win, and still the core of our team.