For our 9er fans on this forum

[Sports Hernia]

Buh bye, take your friends with you...........

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

God we keep wishing you would. Stop threatening and just do it already. ^^^^




Rational: While I'm not gonna hit you as hard as Hernia, I do feel several people on this thread have responded reasonably, myself included and you have continued on the same basic track despite reasonable arguments that at the very least chip away at what I see as a doomsday Seahawks scenario that you proposed as possible. Fortunately, Chris finally broke through that wall you had erected in his post about Pete being who he is and never wavering from committing to the run. So congrats on being true to your name with your response to Chris. It would've been nice had you been a little more respecting of several others of us that responded reasonably and thoughtfully to your question though. Either that or Chris is just way smarter than a bunch of the rest of us.

 

[RationalNiner]

Rational: While I'm not gonna hit you as hard as Hernia, I do feel several people on this thread have responded reasonably, myself included and you have continued on the same basic track despite reasonable arguments that at the very least chip away at what I see as a doomsday Seahawks scenario that you proposed as possible. Fortunately, Chris finally broke through that wall you had erected in his post about Pete being who he is and never wavering from committing to the run. So congrats on being true to your name with your response to Chris. It would've been nice had you been a little more respecting of several others of us that responded reasonably and thoughtfully to your question though. Either that or Chris is just way smarter than a bunch of the rest of us.

I did not mean to imply anything negative about you guys. Maybe I just wasn't clear enough or maybe we just have different ideas of what elite level QBing is.

Russell is a good, dangerous QB and he's put up some good stats. I was more specifically talking about some of the different intricacies of QBing that Russell is gonna need to improve to become elite. To Russell's credit, it took Steve Young 4-5 seasons. It also took Brees a while to develop into what he is.

Chris just made a good point and reminded me of Carroll's smash mouth football philosophy. It won't be necessary with Russell as long as you guys can keep that same nucleus of players on defense and keep your run game as effective even without Lynch if he's gone next year or the year after. But then I have to wonder if it's worth paying Russell so much considering the style of play but others here have said your cap is manageable even once Russell gets a new contract.

If any of these mobile QBs (RW, Kap, Newton, RG|||) can take the next step to where he can take his game to that of Rodgers, Brady, or Manning, it's Russell. He's shown flashes. He played tremendous in the super bowl. Very impressive. But I just thought he was going to take that next step this year, especially with a healthy Harvin. Now obviously a lot has happened since the beginning of the season so that did not really materialize but I'd like to see how he progresses next year.

 

[Laloosh]

Pack it up boys. Niner fans say Russell isn't elite. Let's trade him for Manning and go 1-15 with that o-line next year.

 

[-The Glove-]

It's not wishful thinking on our part. Yes, RW has shown all that, but not at the consistent basis he should be just yet.

Russell Wilson is the definition of consistency:

2012: 64.1% completions, 194.9 yards/game, 26-10 TD-INT ratio, 100 QB rating
2013: 63.1% completions, 209.8 yards/game, 26-9 TD-INT ratio, 101.2 QB rating
2014: 63.4% completions, 209.9 yards/game, 17-5 TD-INT ratio, 95.2 QB rating
Career: 63.3% completions, 204.5 yards/game, 69-24 TD-INT ratio, 98.9 QB rating

Despite porous pass protection and a weakened receiving corps, Wilson has been as steady as a rock for this offense. That's a credit to his uncanny ability to elude the pressure. In fact, he's managed to actually cut down his INTs and do more damage on the ground - 727 rushing yards and 5 TDs so far.

I doubt you can find a QB who has been more consistent through his first three seasons. I know you can't find one who has more wins.

You and your damn stats ruined the OP's original point and narrative, drat!

:th2thumbs:

Not really. You and Hawknation are largely missing the point of what I am saying and none of those stats do anything to counter what I've said. Hawknation is taking what I meant by consistency on high level quarterbacking (making plays from the pocket, changing protections and identifying the blitz pre snap in order to audible into a more advantageous play, going through his progressions in the pocket without scrambling after the primary read is taken away, making the very tough anticipation throws, etc) out of context.

Yes, RW has been consistent being pretty much the same guy he has been since the second half of the 2012 season. Good but not great/elite.

:34853_doh:
No, it is you that is missing the point, but you'd have to take off your 49'er colored glasses to see that fact.
You need to change your screen name you are no longer "rational", just another niners troll trying to stir up crap because his team is having a disasterous season that you didn't see coming, while some of us did. Take your pity party elsewhere.

PS. Enjoy the niners rebuilding process, I know I will! :th2thumbs:

Like I said, misery loves company. We knocked their QB down for years and everything we've said is coming true. Now they're trying to do the same. Difference is, the Seahawks and RW are smart enough and capable enough to adapt. Imagine if RW had Kaep's weapons.

 

[bigtrain21]

Rational: While I'm not gonna hit you as hard as Hernia, I do feel several people on this thread have responded reasonably, myself included and you have continued on the same basic track despite reasonable arguments that at the very least chip away at what I see as a doomsday Seahawks scenario that you proposed as possible. Fortunately, Chris finally broke through that wall you had erected in his post about Pete being who he is and never wavering from committing to the run. So congrats on being true to your name with your response to Chris. It would've been nice had you been a little more respecting of several others of us that responded reasonably and thoughtfully to your question though. Either that or Chris is just way smarter than a bunch of the rest of us.

I did not mean to imply anything negative about you guys. Maybe I just wasn't clear enough or maybe we just have different ideas of what elite level QBing is.

Russell is a good, dangerous QB and he's put up some good stats. I was more specifically talking about some of the different intricacies of QBing that Russell is gonna need to improve to become elite. To Russell's credit, it took Steve Young 4-5 seasons. It also took Brees a while to develop into what he is.

Chris just made a good point and reminded me of Carroll's smash mouth football philosophy. It won't be necessary with Russell as long as you guys can keep that same nucleus of players on defense and keep your run game as effective even without Lynch if he's gone next year or the year after. But then I have to wonder if it's worth paying Russell so much considering the style of play but others here have said your cap is manageable even once Russell gets a new contract.

If any of these mobile QBs (RW, Kap, Newton, RG|||) can take the next step to where he can take his game to that of Rodgers, Brady, or Manning, it's Russell. He's shown flashes. He played tremendous in the super bowl. Very impressive. But I just thought he was going to take that next step this year, especially with a healthy Harvin. Now obviously a lot has happened since the beginning of the season so that did not really materialize but I'd like to see how he progresses next year.

Basically though, you are entitled to your opinion when you don't see him often. We can't have an opinion on the subject because it makes us homers when most of us have seen every snap as a Seahawk. You even mentioned the exact point that was made by others. Look at Steve Young's first 45 games and compare it to Russell Wilson. This is his 3rd year. He is doing fantastic for someone in his 3rd year.

He has put up the numbers he has put up playing 2 games a year against all the teams in the NFC west which to me is very impressive. He has a Super Bowl trophy and as much credit is given to the defense, and rightly so, we don't get there without Russell Wilson performing at the level he did.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

..........We knocked their QB down for years and everything we've said is coming true. Now they're trying to do the same........

Rational: it does feel at least somewhat like this. Just being honest.

 

[RationalNiner]

Pack it up boys. Niner fans say Russell isn't elite. Let's trade him for Manning and go 1-15 with that o-line next year.

I'm gonna have to disagree there about what you are implying. And this is not me trying to insult you or the hawks. Everyone knows we also have a mobile QB in Kaepernick.

I think sometimes the opposite is certainly true. Qbs with a propensity to scramble can make their line look worse than it really is. Kaepernick has made our OL look worse than it really is for the past 2 seasons with him leaving the pocket and not getting the ball out quickly, giving defenders more time to reach him and giving them a more clear lane to bounce off their blocker to the quarterback. This is true of all mobile QBs that scramble a lot when their first read isn't open.

When a QB can audible to more advantageous protections and plays with pre-snap reads and make quick decisions from the pocket, it goes a long way in making the pass protection and line look better.

Watch how Tom Brady makes subtle movements in the pocket to avoid the rush. He's pretty damn good at it. Being a great scrambler outside the pocket is a bonus, but not necessary.

 

[Scottemojo]

Rational: While I'm not gonna hit you as hard as Hernia, I do feel several people on this thread have responded reasonably, myself included and you have continued on the same basic track despite reasonable arguments that at the very least chip away at what I see as a doomsday Seahawks scenario that you proposed as possible. Fortunately, Chris finally broke through that wall you had erected in his post about Pete being who he is and never wavering from committing to the run. So congrats on being true to your name with your response to Chris. It would've been nice had you been a little more respecting of several others of us that responded reasonably and thoughtfully to your question though. Either that or Chris is just way smarter than a bunch of the rest of us.

I did not mean to imply anything negative about you guys. Maybe I just wasn't clear enough or maybe we just have different ideas of what elite level QBing is.

Russell is a good, dangerous QB and he's put up some good stats. I was more specifically talking about some of the different intricacies of QBing that Russell is gonna need to improve to become elite. To Russell's credit, it took Steve Young 4-5 seasons. It also took Brees a while to develop into what he is.

Chris just made a good point and reminded me of Carroll's smash mouth football philosophy. It won't be necessary with Russell as long as you guys can keep that same nucleus of players on defense and keep your run game as effective even without Lynch if he's gone next year or the year after. But then I have to wonder if it's worth paying Russell so much considering the style of play but others here have said your cap is manageable even once Russell gets a new contract.

If any of these mobile QBs (RW, Kap, Newton, RG|||) can take the next step to where he can take his game to that of Rodgers, Brady, or Manning, it's Russell. He's shown flashes. He played tremendous in the super bowl. Very impressive. But I just thought he was going to take that next step this year, especially with a healthy Harvin. Now obviously a lot has happened since the beginning of the season so that did not really materialize but I'd like to see how he progresses next year.

This "elite" designation is both arbitrary and subjective. It is a way to measure him vs the league when the way he plays makes it very difficult to measure him vs the league.
Russell gives the Hawks leadership. He brings will to win and positivity. His rush yards have proven to destabilize a defense. He has proven to have some 4th quarter magic. He has done so without the traditional NFL model pass catching group. He protects the ball at the expense of personal stats. He seeks big plays safely. Hell, he threw as many touchdowns his first 2 years as any QB ever has.

Why not just define his skill set rather than try to pigeon hole him?

 

[RationalNiner]

..........We knocked their QB down for years and everything we've said is coming true. Now they're trying to do the same........

Rational: it does feel at least somewhat like this. Just being honest.

Russell has been an unquestionably better QB than Kaepernick since 2013, and I've said that he is a good QB and that I thought he was top 5 earlier in the year. I don't think we are trying to do the same thing.

I tend to prefer QBs who consistently make plays from the pocket and I've held that opinion since the Jeff Garcia years when he'd run around like a moron all the time screwing up the timing of every play. To his credit, his scrambling was so erratic that I think he even confused the defensive linemen.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

This "elite" designation is both arbitrary and subjective. It is a way to measure him vs the league when the way he plays makes it very difficult to measure him vs the league.
Russell gives the Hawks leadership. He brings will to win and positivity. His rush yards have proven to destabilize a defense. He has proven to have some 4th quarter magic. He has done so without the traditional NFL model pass catching group. He protects the ball at the expense of personal stats. He seeks big plays safely. Hell, he threw as many touchdowns his first 2 years as any QB ever has.

Why not just define his skill set rather than try to pigeon hole him?

I know Greg Lombardi can be annoying, but I heard him call Russell an "outlier" the other day. What he meant was that he's so different you really can't compare him to a typical NFL QB. Same thing you're saying in your first 2 sentences Scott and sums up nicely the point we've all been making in 5-6 different ways.



You're more than welcome to prefer a pocket guy Rational. Me, I prefer wins and Russ helps us get them. In time he will get older and his legs won't be able to do what they do now. I'm confident he'll be what you prefer by the time that happens and be successful at it. Time will tell if I'm right (and many other folks that have the same opinion).

 

[Scottemojo]

Pack it up boys. Niner fans say Russell isn't elite. Let's trade him for Manning and go 1-15 with that o-line next year.

I'm gonna have to disagree there about what you are implying. And this is not me trying to insult you or the hawks. Everyone knows we also have a mobile QB in Kaepernick.

I think sometimes the opposite is certainly true. Qbs with a propensity to scramble can make their lines look worse than it really is. Kaepernick has made our OL look worse than it really is for the past 2 seasons with him leaving the pocket and not getting the ball out quickly, giving defenders more time to reach him and giving them a more clear lanes to bounce off their blocker to the quarterback. This is true of all mobile QBs that scramble a lot when their first read isn't open.

When a QB can audible to more advantageous protections and plays with pre-snap reads and make quick decisions from the pocket, it goes a long way in making the pass protection and line look better.

Watch how Tom Brady makes subtle movements in the pocket to avoid the rush. He's pretty damn good at it. Being a great scrambler outside the pocket is a bonus, but not necessary.

Yeah, but Tom has to do that. He has no choice.

Of course mobile guys make their line look worse than it is, the D can see the QB, the O-line can't. Trust me, convincing Hawk fans that their line isn't as sucky as many of them think has been a chore I have tried, and failed, to achieve. In part because as pass protectors they are very average. Most think average is bad.

The thing is, it doesn't matter. Russell is not the ideal QB in some ways, but he finds a way to stress a defense. He is not Tom Brady, but he is a goddam swiss army knife. If Russ were not mobile, and taller, this average line would have him on IR. Like Arizona's average line does it's QB.

Who cares if Russ is elite. He is the right tool for the job, good enough to be unbeaten when he faces off with Rodgers, Brees, Brady and both Mannings. That doesn't make him "elite", but it does make him good enough. To win more than one title.

Let me ask you, which definition matters more, elite, or multiple rings?

 

[RationalNiner]

Yeah, but Tom has to do that. He has no choice.

Yes, but it works beautifully. In a perfect world, Tom would also have Russell's scrambling ability to make something happen out of nothing when the play is completely broken. I think elite scrambling ability should be used as a tool when necessary to supplement pocket passing. Steve Young had both of these traits and I think he's very underrated for a HOF QB.

Of course mobile guys make their line look worse than it is, the D can see the QB, the O-line can't. Trust me, convincing Hawk fans that their line isn't as sucky as many of them think has been a chore I have tried, and failed, to achieve. In part because as pass protectors they are very average. Most think average is bad.

I've tried the same thing with Niner fans ever since Alex Smith. It doesn't work. It's always the same response, we just need better pass blockers and more weapons. I know.

Let me ask you, which definition matters more, elite, or multiple rings?

I think if Russell took the next step and had a true #1, getting multiple rings would be an even bigger possibility with that defense.

 

[Scottemojo]

Yeah, but Tom has to do that. He has no choice.

Yes, but it works beautifully. In a perfect world, Tom would also have Russell's scrambling ability to make something happen out of nothing when the play is completely broken. I think elite scrambling ability should be used as a tool when necessary to supplement pocket passing. Steve Young had both of these traits and I think he's very underrated for a HOF QB.

Of course mobile guys make their line look worse than it is, the D can see the QB, the O-line can't. Trust me, convincing Hawk fans that their line isn't as sucky as many of them think has been a chore I have tried, and failed, to achieve. In part because as pass protectors they are very average. Most think average is bad.

I've tried the same thing with Niner fans ever since Alex Smith. It doesn't work. It's always the same response, we just need better pass blockers and more weapons. I know.

Let me ask you, which definition matters more, elite, or multiple rings?

I think if Russell took the next step and had a true #1, getting multiple rings would be an even bigger possibility with that defense.

Your last statement is not really needed. Sky is blue, water is wet.

Also, you say Russ needs better receivers to be "elite", but doesn't that only make him even more awesome for winning without the guys you think he needs? He is't elite because he doesn't win pretty enough with inferior talent? Peyton threw for insane numbers last year with multiple awesome targets, but when it mattered he sucked balls, but at least he is "elite".

It's not a description with substance.

Why invent future scenarios that may or may not unfold when you can just describe his current skill set?

 

[RationalNiner]

Your last statement is not really needed. Sky is blue, water is wet.

Why? You acted like I had to pick between Russell and multiple rings or just elite level QB play. That question in itself wasn't a good question. Elite QBs have won multiple rings. It's not one or the other

Also, you say Russ needs better receivers to be "elite"

Nope, I didn't say that. I said if he took the next step and had a true number 1, winning multiple rings would be a bigger possibility. I did not say that he needed a true number 1 to become elite.

doesn't that only make him even more awesome for winning without the guys you think he needs? He is't elite because he doesn't win pretty enough with inferior talent? Peyton threw for insane numbers last year with multiple awesome targets, but when it mattered he sucked balls, but at least he is "elite".

You guys win because of great defense, Lynch, and Russell taking care of the ball and making the necessary plays when called upon. Russell is rarely the sole reason you guys win games. If Russell went down, you guys would still be a playoff team as long as you had a serviceable backup that took care of the ball and made the throws when necessary.

 

[Scottemojo]

Your last statement is not really needed. Sky is blue, water is wet.

Why? You acted like I had to pick between Russell and multiple rings or just elite level QB play. That question in itself wasn't a good question. Elite QBs have won multiple rings. It's not one or the other

Also, you say Russ needs better receivers to be "elite"

Nope, I didn't say that. I said if he took the next step and had a true number 1, winning multiple rings would be a bigger possibility. I did not say that he needed a true number 1 to become elite.

doesn't that only make him even more awesome for winning without the guys you think he needs? He is't elite because he doesn't win pretty enough with inferior talent? Peyton threw for insane numbers last year with multiple awesome targets, but when it mattered he sucked balls, but at least he is "elite".

You guys win because of great defense, Lynch, and Russell taking care of the ball and making the necessary plays when called upon. Russell is rarely the sole reason you guys win games. If Russell went down, you guys would still be a playoff team as long as you had a serviceable backup that took care of the ball and made the throws when necessary.

No. We would not. Which is where we disagree.

I am more critical of Russ than most. But the man is a playmaker. Servicable backups are not.

 

[Maulbert]

Your last statement is not really needed. Sky is blue, water is wet.

Why? You acted like I had to pick between Russell and multiple rings or just elite level QB play. That question in itself wasn't a good question. Elite QBs have won multiple rings. It's not one or the other

Also, you say Russ needs better receivers to be "elite"

Nope, I didn't say that. I said if he took the next step and had a true number 1, winning multiple rings would be a bigger possibility. I did not say that he needed a true number 1 to become elite.

doesn't that only make him even more awesome for winning without the guys you think he needs? He is't elite because he doesn't win pretty enough with inferior talent? Peyton threw for insane numbers last year with multiple awesome targets, but when it mattered he sucked balls, but at least he is "elite".

You guys win because of great defense, Lynch, and Russell taking care of the ball and making the necessary plays when called upon. Russell is rarely the sole reason you guys win games. If Russell went down, you guys would still be a playoff team as long as you had a serviceable backup that took care of the ball and made the throws when necessary.

Tavaris Jackson was QB of practically the same team in 2011. Result: 7-9. We would have lost to New England and Chicago in 2012 without Russell Wilson. We would have lost to Houston and Tampa Bay last year without Russell Wilson. Notably, Jim Harbaugh has not won in Seattle since Russell Wilson got here.

 

[RationalNiner]

Tavaris Jackson was QB of practically the same team in 2011. Result: 7-9. We would have lost to New England and Chicago in 2012 without Russell Wilson. We would have lost to Houston and Tampa Bay last year without Russell Wilson. Notably, Jim Harbaugh has not won in Seattle since Russell Wilson got here.

I don't really consider Tavaris Jackson a serviceable QB. I'm thinking more along the line of an Alex Smith type player when I mean serviceable QB. And I'm not so sure the 2011 team is the same. From 2012 on, your defense definitely improved thanks to more time playing together for more cohesion and you added more pieces such as Bennett, Bruce Irvin, and Bobby Wagner. Either way, Yes, RW makes fantastic plays and can really hurt a defense. But he is not to your team what Aaron Rodgers is to the packers, for example. You can win and be successful without him thanks to the NFL's best defense and rushing offense, but GB can't win without AR. I think that better explains what I was trying to say. You guys might agree or disagree, but I guess we'll never know for sure unless that scenario ever plays out.


Anyway, gonna get to bed. Fun talking football with y'all. Looking forward to the game tomorrow. Here's to an injury free, competitive game reminiscent of the 2013 NFCC game

 

[kearly]

I don't really consider Tavaris Jackson a serviceable QB.

He probably wouldn't be a great starter, but I think he's one of the better backups in the league. Jackson's passer rating since the halfway point of 2011 is in the 90s, and he looked pretty damn awesome in limited looks last season (particularly in the preseason).

With regards to Wilson, he is a high ceiling QB in a low ceiling passing offense with an OC who never misses an opportunity to settle for less. The team is basically leaning on Wilson to play backyard football right now because he's really good at it and it wins games, but he's capable of much more.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

..........Anyway, gonna get to bed. Fun talking football with y'all. Looking forward to the game tomorrow. Here's to an injury free, Hawks blowout similar to the game in Seattle last year

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