Fire Tom Cable

[Scottemojo]

Montana, IMO, some of our holding calls are on Russ. Every lineman in the league grabs jersey in the number plate or on the shoulders. THe longer the QB holds the ball, the more opportunity a DT or DE has to try to shake free, and that is when holds look like holds. Add to that, a lineman has a bit of inside leverage, then Russ runs around his backside and the DL guy lunges the opposite way, and that jersey grab becomes doubly apparent.

Some penalties will be inherent to blocking for Russ.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to, so I'm confused with this statement.

The O-line knows EXACTLY where Russell is going to be based on the play called. Is it a straight drop back, play action, roll out, etc. Every play has a precise spot and timing for Russell and the WR's.........and every O-lineman knows it. It's not until the play breaks down that Russell scrambles (usually the fault of the lineman btw).

 

[Scottemojo]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to, so I'm confused with this statement.

The O-line knows EXACTLY where Russell is going to be based on the play called. Is it a straight drop back, play action, roll out, etc. Every play has a precise spot and timing for Russell and the WR's.........and every O-lineman knows it. It's not until the play breaks down that Russell scrambles (usually the fault of the lineman btw).

Sometimes.

Last year, by way of example, 20 of the 44 sacks were blown blocks. 14 were coverage sacks. And that was with a mostly replacement line for half the season. 1.25 sacks per game tied to a blown block. When you add in untouched blockers (like naked bootlegs read by a D) it is 8 more. still less than 2 game tied to missed blocks/untouched rushers.

If you look at the time elapsed on sacks last year, the vast majority of Seattle's sacks came after 3.5 seconds. That is actually decent passing time. But Russ was the QB who held the ball longest in the NFL last year. Most of his mistakes, but also a huge chunk of his big plays come after holding the ball for a while.

I think some of what we tend to chalk up as bad line play is part and parcel of the way we select linemen combined with the type of offense we run.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to, so I'm confused with this statement.

The O-line knows EXACTLY where Russell is going to be based on the play called. Is it a straight drop back, play action, roll out, etc. Every play has a precise spot and timing for Russell and the WR's.........and every O-lineman knows it. It's not until the play breaks down that Russell scrambles (usually the fault of the lineman btw).

Sometimes.

Last year, by way of example, 20 of the 44 sacks were blown blocks. 14 were coverage sacks. And that was with a mostly replacement line for half the season. 1.25 sacks per game tied to a blown block. When you add in untouched blockers (like naked bootlegs read by a D) it is 8 more. still less than 2 game tied to missed blocks/untouched rushers.

If you look at the time elapsed on sacks last year, the vast majority of Seattle's sacks came after 3.5 seconds. That is actually decent passing time. But Russ was the QB who held the ball longest in the NFL last year. Most of his mistakes, but also a huge chunk of his big plays come after holding the ball for a while.

I think some of what we tend to chalk up as bad line play is part and parcel of the way we select linemen combined with the type of offense we run.

That's why I said usually.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to

I don't agree with that statement at all. I've seen numerous instances where Russ scrambles without anyone near him. Not all the time, but enough to play a role in the problem.

I think a lot of people are just assuming that he's only scrambling when he has to, because they're not aware of the ways that a QB can run himself into pressure.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to

I don't agree with that statement at all. I've seen numerous instances where Russ scrambles without anyone near him. Not all the time, but enough to play a role in the problem.

I think a lot of people are just assuming that he's only scrambling when he has to, because they're not aware of the ways that a QB can run himself into pressure.

So I'll fix my statement...........Russell only scrambles when he THINKS he has to.

Unless you think Russell runs into the rush on purpose just to mess with his O-lineman.

 

[Scottemojo]

I am about to commit heresy...
I think often Russ scrambles when he can't see.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to

I don't agree with that statement at all. I've seen numerous instances where Russ scrambles without anyone near him. Not all the time, but enough to play a role in the problem.

I think a lot of people are just assuming that he's only scrambling when he has to, because they're not aware of the ways that a QB can run himself into pressure.

So I'll fix my statement...........Russell only scrambles when he THINKS he has to.

Unless you think Russell runs into the rush on purpose just to mess with his O-lineman.

Honestly? I think it's a combination of Russ having poor pocket presence AND trouble seeing over his offensive line.

This would be a death sentence for most QB careers. That Russ has won a Super Bowl tells us that he has the skills to compensate. I just think there will be bumps along the road.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I am about to commit heresy...
I think often Russ scrambles when he can't see.

Russell is probably one of the best QB's at sensing pressure and avoiding sacks, so I'm not going to bust his balls on this one.

Does he sometimes imagine pressure that's not there and scramble into even more trouble? Sure, but all QB's do that, it's not a perfect science.

Bottom line for me is I'd rather have a QB like Russell that has the ability to scramble out of sure sacks and create something out of nothing than a stationary QB that might have sharper pocket awareness............but that also requires a super clean pocket because he's so immobile.

 

[olyfan63]

I am about to commit heresy...
I think often Russ scrambles when he can't see.

^^ This.

Does the truth = heresy?

Russell's stats/QB rating while scrambling/out of the pocket are pretty much identical to when he's in the pocket, IIRC.
(Does someone have a link to the source of those stats handy?)

To me it seems pretty clear that the vision over the line thing is an issue, one which Russell has, his whole playing life, developed a set of compensatory mechanisms for, one of which is maintaining downfield awareness while on the run. (Brees... doesn't move as much... not sure what his secrets are, but he's amazing too)

NFL Defensive Coordinators have a "book" on Russell Wilson... blitz him this way, but not that way, contain him, etc. etc. I don't claim to be privy to it. In SB48, we disrespected Peyton's deep throws (in part due to having the amazing ETIII at safety) and had a pretty effective "book" on him for that game. For Russell, I'd expect the most effective blitzes to be designed so as to obscure his vision of "hot" receivers, and there have been various mentions about Russell's limitations in throwing certain types of slant patterns.

Anyone know of good threads on this board discussing the DC "book" on Russell in depth, and strategies for attacking him? As a DC, what would be your strategies in attacking Russell Wilson the passer, and the Seattle Offensive Line?

 

[Scottemojo]

I am about to commit heresy...
I think often Russ scrambles when he can't see.

^^ This.

Does the truth = heresy?

Russell's stats/QB rating while scrambling/out of the pocket are pretty much identical to when he's in the pocket, IIRC.
(Does someone have a link to the source of those stats handy?)

To me it seems pretty clear that the vision over the line thing is an issue, one which Russell has, his whole playing life, developed a set of compensatory mechanisms for, one of which is maintaining downfield awareness while on the run. (Brees... doesn't move as much... not sure what his secrets are, but he's amazing too)

NFL Defensive Coordinators have a "book" on Russell Wilson... blitz him this way, but not that way, contain him, etc. etc. I don't claim to be privy to it. In SB48, we disrespected Peyton's deep throws (in part due to having the amazing ETIII at safety) and had a pretty effective "book" on him for that game. For Russell, I'd expect the most effective blitzes to be designed so as to obscure his vision of "hot" receivers, and there have been various mentions about Russell's limitations in throwing certain types of slant patterns.

Anyone know of good threads on this board discussing the DC "book" on Russell in depth, and strategies for attacking him? As a DC, what would be your strategies in attacking Russell Wilson the passer, and the Seattle Offensive Line?

See:week 16, 2013. That is the book.

 

[hawkfan68]

In terms of scrambling, one big difference I noticed between Brees and Wilson is Brees will step up in the pocket if it's there. He does it frequently. Russell seems to go backwards or scrambles to the sides. I can't recall any instance (I'm sure there may be some) where he stepped up in the pocket. I'm not sure why Russell doesn't do this. Maybe it's a mental thing with him as he's not comfortable in the pocket. But with this OL, he really doesn't have much time to step up in the pocket. The protection is so inconsistent maybe that impacts why he scrambles and the way he scrambles.

 

[scutterhawk]

This post marks the beginning of your .NET career's decline, because you could not possibly top it.

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

What Pocket are you talking about?
First of all, Russell Wilson CANNOT count on a pocket that collapses in 2.2 Seconds after the ball is snapped, and sometimes even faster.
Russell Wilson was hit, rushed or sacked more than most all other QB's last Season, so out of necessity, he's had to get away from there and try'n find his targets with one eye, while doing his damnedest to run for self preservation.
Cable is responsible for coaching his O-Line, and subsequently, he's at fault for the mistakes they make too.

 

[scutterhawk]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to

I don't agree with that statement at all. I've seen numerous instances where Russ scrambles without anyone near him. Not all the time, but enough to play a role in the problem.

I think a lot of people are just assuming that he's only scrambling when he has to, because they're not aware of the ways that a QB can run himself into pressure.

He also runs himself OUT of the pressure more often than not.

 

[kearly]

Last year Seattle had the NFL's worst sack rate. Of course they would, they had McQuistan and Bowie starting at tackle for half the season. For a few games, Sweezy was the only starter we had. Brutal.

There was a chart posted here a while back from that season that was enlightening. Despite Seattle's horrific sack rate, their sack rate on plays where the QB held the ball between 2-3 seconds was league average, as was their protection on play-action.

Seattle took some sacks last year because guys like McQuistan and Bowie did the matador O'le about 1 second into a play - OR - Wilson took a sack because he held the ball 4 or 5 seconds. It was those two scenarios that accounted or most of the damage.

This year the number of insta-sacks is way down. In fact it was way down late last year when they got Breno and Okung back.

I think Scottemojo's take is spot on. When you draft an OL for the run game, it will come at a cost. When you draft a QB who holds the ball the very longest of any QB in the NFL, it comes at a cost. Like Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers, Wilson takes a lot of sacks, but he also spins those plays where he holds the ball too long into big gains. For the most part, it's a tradeoff that's been worth it, just like it has been for those two QBs.

 

[scutterhawk]

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.

Russell only scrambles when he has to

So I'll fix my statement...........Russell only scrambles when he THINKS he has to.

Unless you think Russell runs into the rush on purpose just to mess with his O-lineman.

Honestly? I think it's a combination of Russ having poor pocket presence AND trouble seeing over his offensive line.

This would be a death sentence for most QB careers. That Russ has won a Super Bowl tells us that he has the skills to compensate. I just think there will be bumps along the road.

Again I ask , What Pocket"?
" Stand Still Russ, That Will Make It A Lot Easier For Us To Get A Bead On Your Ass"

 

[scutterhawk]

I am about to commit heresy...
I think often Russ scrambles when he can't see.

^^ This.

Does the truth = heresy?

Russell's stats/QB rating while scrambling/out of the pocket are pretty much identical to when he's in the pocket, IIRC.
(Does someone have a link to the source of those stats handy?)

To me it seems pretty clear that the vision over the line thing is an issue, one which Russell has, his whole playing life, developed a set of compensatory mechanisms for, one of which is maintaining downfield awareness while on the run. (Brees... doesn't move as much... not sure what his secrets are, but he's amazing too)

NFL Defensive Coordinators have a "book" on Russell Wilson... blitz him this way, but not that way, contain him, etc. etc. I don't claim to be privy to it. In SB48, we disrespected Peyton's deep throws (in part due to having the amazing ETIII at safety) and had a pretty effective "book" on him for that game. For Russell, I'd expect the most effective blitzes to be designed so as to obscure his vision of "hot" receivers, and there have been various mentions about Russell's limitations in throwing certain types of slant patterns.

Anyone know of good threads on this board discussing the DC "book" on Russell in depth, and strategies for attacking him? As a DC, what would be your strategies in attacking Russell Wilson the passer, and the Seattle Offensive Line?

Shitty protection from his O-Line has something to do with those "Stats" that you're trying to run with.
Wilson's success has a lot to do with his instincts, and ability to scramble out of being sacked or hit, in fact, that's one of the biggest reasons for our success with winning the Big One, and before anyone touts the Defense as the main reason for that, they didn't do it without Rice's help early last Season, Lynch's pounding the rock, Wilson's scrambling, Tate's acrobatics, Baldwin's sure hands, Kearse's growth in development last Season and a few others in the Offense.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

First of all, Russell Wilson CANNOT count on a pocket that collapses in 2.2 Seconds after the ball is snapped, and sometimes even faster.

I'm aware of that. That is truly poor pass protection. But it doesn't happen nearly as often as a lot of you are thinking. The only recent game I can recall that featured that on a regular basis was the Rams game.

Russell Wilson was hit, rushed or sacked more than most all other QB's last Season, so out of necessity, he's had to get away from there and try'n find his targets with one eye, while doing his damnedest to run for self preservation.
Cable is responsible for coaching his O-Line, and subsequently, he's at fault for the mistakes they make too.

Again, you're making assumptions all over the place. Russell often runs himself INTO pressure where none existed. He also doesn't throw the ball away when he should and therefore creates unnecessary sacks (a common criticism of other QBs, including many who have failed).

You guys are absolutely locked into this frame of mind where EVERYTHING is the O-line's fault and the QB's decision-making barely even matters.

Again I ask , What Pocket"?

There's nothing more I can say that I haven't already said. Purchase Game Rewind and go through some games with an objective eye. In addition to the plays you're describing where pressure breaks down instantly, you'll also find a surprising number of plays where a pocket exists, Wilson fails to climb it and instead sits back there for five seconds waiting for his fourth-string wide receiver to get five yards open, and finally some rusher circumnavigates an exhausted Okung and pressures or sacks Wilson. A handful of times every game, I'm telling you.

 

[scutterhawk]

First of all, Russell Wilson CANNOT count on a pocket that collapses in 2.2 Seconds after the ball is snapped, and sometimes even faster.

I'm aware of that. That is truly poor pass protection. But it doesn't happen nearly as often as a lot of you are thinking. The only recent game I can recall that featured that on a regular basis was the Rams game.

Russell Wilson was hit, rushed or sacked more than most all other QB's last Season, so out of necessity, he's had to get away from there and try'n find his targets with one eye, while doing his damnedest to run for self preservation.
Cable is responsible for coaching his O-Line, and subsequently, he's at fault for the mistakes they make too.

Again, you're making assumptions all over the place. Russell often runs himself INTO pressure where none existed. He also doesn't throw the ball away when he should and therefore creates unnecessary sacks (a common criticism of other QBs, including many who have failed).

You guys are absolutely locked into this frame of mind where EVERYTHING is the O-line's fault and the QB's decision-making barely even matters.

Again I ask , What Pocket"?

There's nothing more I can say that I haven't already said. Purchase Game Rewind and go through some games with an objective eye. In addition to the plays you're describing where pressure breaks down instantly, you'll also find a surprising number of plays where a pocket exists, Wilson fails to climb it and instead sits back there for five seconds waiting for his fourth-string wide receiver to get five yards open, and finally some rusher circumnavigates an exhausted Okung and pressures or sacks Wilson. A handful of times every game, I'm telling you.

Hmm, boy, we could really use Zach Miller to bolster the O-Line.
If Russell Wilson can't count on a pocket being there, he's going to initiate his scrambles, pre-snap, and so would most other QB's if they know that they couldn't count on it being there.

 

[Scottemojo]

Ask many Hawk fans how many sacks Britt has given up, and the answer they give will be a lot higher than 3.