Fire Tom Cable

[pehawk]

Hawks we're the only team to workout Carpenter at G at the Senior Bowl. In fact, that's the only placed they worked him. Whatever they said in 2011, wasn't backed up by their actions.

 

[hawk45]

Very interested in seeing what a non-Lynch running back does behind our line. Vaguely remember chatter that Cable would sometimes get annoyed with Lynch for not running within the scheme i.e. not going where the hole was supposed to be, and that could just be my faulty memory, but there seem to be many times when Lynch just bounces outside or does his own thing. One of the best runs Turbin had vs. the Rams looked to me to be the result of finally following suit and saying eff it, I'm bouncing this outside I don't care where the hole is purported to exist.

Cable was here when we won a superbowl yes but the line was a train wreck for most of last season and didn't get a ton better when guys came back. I completely agree Cable can't fairly be evaluated due to the injuries he's dealt with, but I disagree that we had a solid or average performing line last year despite injuries. It was terrible. So while we can't blame him entirely or evaluate because of injuries, neither can we burnish his reputation by claiming he made something decent out of scraps.

Last time it felt we had dominant run blocking was in 2012 when we didn't have everyone injured, yes, but also RW and the read-option was new to the league and Russ, RGIII, Kaep, etc. were such threats that those rushing offense just hit the easy button all year long.

Jury's out for me with Cable. I just call for his head in gameday forum, in reality don't know enough to say I'd be scared of him leaving or I want him gone yesterday.

 

[AVL]

Tom Cable is a damn good coach. If he hadn't beaten up his wife, he'd definitely be a head coach somewhere right now. He's the only guy I can remember over the past 10 years that actually had the Raiders playing decent football. He not only is a wizard with the ZBS, but he brings a toughness and attitude that fits in perfectly with our identity.

So we are lucky Cable allegedly beat up his wife?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If anything I think Cable is too good, which is the reason we haven't spent enough resources, draft and FA wise on the line.

Pete and John have relied on Cable's ability to drastically improve average players into good lineman. Which is fine as long as we have a RB like Lynch around that can make something out of nothing 50% of the time, but next year we're in deep doo doo if Lynch walks.

Yes, a guy with no ability to judge talent or make people better is TOO GOOD.

In no universe is cable too good. He has failed from day 1.

Cable was a mistake and its time to move on. Cable's no-pass-pro O-lines are going to get Wilson injured. Cable has a history of always having poor pass-pro olines.

Cable isn't suddenly going to be any better than bottom-5 in the nfl, time to move on

Not sure what league you're watching, but Cable didn't get hired as the Raider's head coach and has been widely considered one of the top O-line coaches in the NFL for almost 8 years........so much so that we created an entire new title for him so that we could pay him more money than other O-line coaches because he's terrible.

 

[Chawks1]

Yeah, I too think it is time to try another OL coach....Cable doesnt have a strong track record anywhere he has coached as having top tier pass protection and i know we have never been strong at pass blocking and RW is too valuable to this franchise not to move toward better pass blocking. Cable seems to love the projects rather drafting or signing legit OL candidates.

I'm basing my opinion on this from hawkblogger earlier this summer:

 

[pehawk]

Yeah, I too think it is time to try another OL coach....Cable doesnt have a strong track record anywhere he has coached as having top tier pass protection and i know we have never been strong at pass blocking and RW is too valuable to this franchise not to move toward better pass blocking. Cable seems to love the projects rather drafting or signing legit OL candidates.

I'm basing my opinion on this from hawkblogger earlier this summer:

If pass protection's your priority you follow the wrong team. I guess the Seahawks could tank, pick top 10 for five straight years, then draft the types of players who are excellent in run and pass blocking. Or, even simpler, hire Holmgren back?

Hawks draft dudes that can run block, because that's their identity. Dissing on Cable because of his lines pass-pro performances would be like a Bronco's fan whining about Peyton Manning's Read-Option prowess.

 

[Chawks1]

Yeah, I too think it is time to try another OL coach....Cable doesnt have a strong track record anywhere he has coached as having top tier pass protection and i know we have never been strong at pass blocking and RW is too valuable to this franchise not to move toward better pass blocking. Cable seems to love the projects rather drafting or signing legit OL candidates.

I'm basing my opinion on this from hawkblogger earlier this summer:

If pass protection's your priority you follow the wrong team. I guess the Seahawks could tank, pick top 10 for five straight years, then draft the types of players who are excellent in run and pass blocking. Or, even simpler, hire Holmgren back?

Hawks draft dudes that can run block, because that's their identity. Dissing on Cable because of his lines pass-pro performances would be like a Bronco's fan whining about Peyton Manning's Read-Option prowess.

And I could argue pretty easily that RW is our franchise. As he goes so does our offense, regardless of who is running the ball. So, keeping him healthy is more important than run blocking. We need to increase pass protection or risk losing him.

 

[justafan]

We have spent alot of high draft picks and money on the Oline,in fact probably more draft capitol and than any other unit.Its fair to expect better performance than they have shown.

Cable was supposed to be one of the better Oline coaches available its fair to expect more.

The facts are we have a very average to below average offense right now.We are a pass first and are ranked near the bottom of yardage for passing.The production at RB is ranked near the bottom of the league.
If it wasnt for Wilson and Lynch I think we would see what a liability this Oline and Cables development of them really are.

I am not really buying into the theory that we sacrifice pass blocking to draft run blockers.This line is struggling to be average.They are not overly physical or tough compared to NFL standards.Throw in the fact they are playing sloppy unfocused ball I cant see who else you should blame other than Cable.He had a huge input into the draft and is in charge of developing the players.

As far as Carp goes, he was penciled in as a RT.Giacomini beat him outafter the injury.His big draw was his versatility.PC and JS mentioned he could play 4 positions.He turned out better than a lot of OTs in that draft but people expect more.

 

[scutterhawk]

Yeah, I too think it is time to try another OL coach....Cable doesnt have a strong track record anywhere he has coached as having top tier pass protection and i know we have never been strong at pass blocking and RW is too valuable to this franchise not to move toward better pass blocking. Cable seems to love the projects rather drafting or signing legit OL candidates.

I'm basing my opinion on this from hawkblogger earlier this summer:

If pass protection's your priority you follow the wrong team. I guess the Seahawks could tank, pick top 10 for five straight years, then draft the types of players who are excellent in run and pass blocking. Or, even simpler, hire Holmgren back?

Hawks draft dudes that can run block, because that's their identity. Dissing on Cable because of his lines pass-pro performances would be like a Bronco's fan whining about Peyton Manning's Read-Option prowess.

And I could argue pretty easily that RW is our franchise. As he goes so does our offense, regardless of who is running the ball. So, keeping him healthy is more important than run blocking. We need to increase pass protection or risk losing him.

There isn't any good reason that the Seahawks shouldn't be able to have both, and because it leaves me with a sick feeling of what would happen if RW gets bunged up because of shitty Pass Protection.
And as was just mentioned, Holmgren did it with a QB that wasn't very mobile, even on his best days...Makes me wonder how good Wilson & Lynch could be with that 2003--2005 O-Line.

 

[HawkWow]

"Look what Cable's had to work with" !

Say what? Cable wanted Gallery here, he got him. he wanted the whack-job Moffitt, he got him. He wanted the underachieving Carpenter, he got him. Sweezy was also cable's pick and switching him to OL was his idea, so let's not act like he got stuck with the task.

"Our focus is more on power football than the pass",

I doubt we were set on continuing that tradition with the acquisition of Harvin and an amazing young QB. Bevel himself said "Marshawn will be getting less reps going forward" and that has happened. It appears we were moving more towards the pass, but still we failed to get even mediocre protection for RW? Insanity.

"Cable won us a SB". Really? With the worst ranked oline in SB history?

In fairness, I've never heard he beat his wife. I know he punched an assistant, never heard about the wife. But when speaking of off - field stuff, Cable and Pete have been bros for a very long time. I'll leave it at that.

Fire Cable? I'm not screaming that because I am not qualified (enough) to make such a statement. But if it's not Cable at fault, then it's Pete. If it's not Pete, it's JS. it's not our owner.

 

[olyfan63]

The dude helped win you a Super Bowl while using a ham sandwich and chopped liver at Right and Left Tackle last season.
OL could be a lot worse than what it is. He's getting plenty out of the available talent.

Don't forget a backup Center, Lemuel Jean-Pierre most of last year too. Though he's so good, he's hardly a backup. 100% Healthy LJP > 80% Healthy Unger.

This year, it's a lame horse and a rack of lamb at Left and Right tackle. I can't tell, is that an upgrade or not? OK, yes, lame horse > chopped liver. Rack of lamb = Ham sandwich.

Plus last year, crippled fattie. This year, uncrippled not-so-fattie, > last year's crippled fattie.

 

[RiverDog]

And, on Carp, can we cut dude some slack? He was NEVER drafted to play tackle, ever. He was playing tackle out of necessity only in year one. Second, dude bust his ass to get back on the field after injury, when everyone thought he'd be IR'd. Carp wasn't drafted to be a nimble dude with tremendous dexterity quickness. He was drafted to be a road grater at guard, and this year he's been just that. As long as he keeps cancelling out "The Cowboy" 2-3 times a year, I'm cool with Carp.

He most certainly was drafted to play tackle. He was worked out exclusively at RT his entire rookie year, started all games from the first preseason game through 3/4 of the season there until he was injured. He was moved to guard when it became apparent that he was never going to make it at OT.

Carpenter was a huge bust until this past off season. Even when healthy, he couldn't beat out a journeyman OG in Paul McQ and at one point, wasn't even on our active roster. When we didn't pick up his option this past February, a light bulb suddenly went on inside his head and like magic, the guy lost a bunch of weight and reported to camp in the best shape of his career.

I have a lot different opinion of Carpenter this season than any of his past 3. He's a different player. He's really turned it around, actually gets to the second level to throw blocks, is able to cut off pursuit, and hasn't lost his point of attack bulldozing type run blocking, which has always been pretty decent.

The fact that Cable apparently thought that Carpenter had the ability to play OT in this league is one of the biggest red marks on his resume IMO.

 

[BASF]

Since I am the one that included Fire Cable in my sig as soon as the Rams game ended where we made their D-line (that had only one sack on the season going into that game) look like they were one of the best in the league again, I figure I might as well chime in here.

First problem for me is the penalties coming from the O-line, specifically the pre-snap variety. This is a discipline problem. It is not a talent problem. It is not an injury problem. It is a discipline problem. You have nine men in your charge Tom. Nine. Getting them on the same page should not be as difficult as it seems to be. This has been an issue including last year. Having false starts at home is an absolute joke. It should not happen, but I have seen it at least twice this season. How many games have we gone without at least three penalties on the linemen?

Second problem for me is the gap pickups. Every single one of our guys give up an open gap at least once a game. The one I will single out that does it at least two or three times a game is Carpenter. The end zone angle is very telling when you get to watch a D-End shoot between Okung and Carpenter as soon as the ball is snapped with Carpenter sometimes still in his stance or even looking toward the D-Tackle. For the most part this is a communication issue as the O-linemen are not seeing the same thing as the guy next to him and thus the protection call is wrong. If that is on the center's injury, then Cable needs to have his backup center better prepared. Unger is constantly injured.

Third problem is the spacing between the guards and center when we are facing the A-gap blitz happy Cardinals (other teams do try this and it is the same in spacing, they just don't get the results the Cards do, mostly because not many are as good as Calais Campbell). We know they are bringing A-gap pressure, and yet we don't change the spacing at all to make it more difficult to get between our three guys. It's like, we will run our offense regardless of what the opponent is doing. Their is a certain respect to be had there, but at some point you have to say, maybe we should change it up a little.

Fourth problem for me is the talent level that we have brought in. People are saying that the front office is not making the line a priority. I will counter that with the fact that Cable is the Assistant Coach. He has a ton of input as to who we are going to bring in. If you believe that Cable isn't vetting every one of the pickups we make for the O-Line I don't know what to tell you.

 

[hawknation2014]

Injuries have hit the line harder than any other position group on offense. Our two best linemen-- Unger and Okung-- can't seem to consistently stay healthy. Meanwhile, the guards-- Sweezy and Carpenter-- both had to come out for periods in the last game. Our backup center was lost for the season. And Zach Miller, who was so counted on to assist our rookie RT, has missed significant time with an ankle injury.

The struggles on the offensive line are directly tied to the fact that we didn't draft an offensive lineman before the 7th round in either 2012 or 2013. As a result, we're now counting on castoffs to fill the void when injuries inevitably occur. Schilling has been a near disaster, but he's currently listed as the backup at all three interior positions.

I don't know if there is a better developer of offensive linemen currently in the league. Unger and Okung were awful before Cable got here. Now their biggest problem is staying healthy. Sweezy and Britt's trajectories look good. Even undrafted guys, Bailey and Gilliam, have developed into solid contributors. Cable just needs a couple more options to work with . . . and some luck, as far as injuries go, wouldn't hurt.

 

[RiverDog]

Injuries have hit the line harder than any other position group. Our two best linemen-- Unger and Okung-- can't seem to consistently stay healthy. Meanwhile, the guards-- Sweezy and Carpenter-- both had to come out for periods in the last game.

The struggles on the offensive line are directly tied to the fact that we didn't draft an offensive linemen before the 7th round in either 2012 or 2013. As a result, we're now counting on castoffs to fill the void when injuries inevitably occur. Schilling has been a near disaster, but he's currently listed as the backup at all three interior positions.

I don't know if there is a better developer of offensive linemen currently in the league. Unger and Okung were awful before Cable got here. Now their biggest problem is staying healthy. Sweezy and Britt's trajectories look good. Even undrafted guys, Bailey and Gilliam, have developed into solid contributors. Cable just needs a couple more options to work with.

Okung was mostly hurt before Cable got here. Besides, I haven't seen any growth out of him even when he's healthy. He's still a holding machine and gets beat a lot more often than a franchise LT should be getting beat. Cable has not coached him up to where he needs to be. One of the biggest decisions we're going to have to make in the offseason is what to do about him.

Not sure how much you can credit Unger's success to Cable as he was playing more guard than he was center prior to Cable's arrival, but I will admit that he's one of Cable's few successes.

 

[SomersetHawk]

As we move on from Lynch, it's hard to believe this team can have the same success running the ball (at least, immediately). If this is the case then we can expect an increase in our passing attack. Is anybody genuinely comfortable with the thought of a Tom Cable O-line protecting our franchise QB (who's absolutely going to get paid like one next year) as our pass plays increase?

Cable's meat and potatoes is in the run game, and even that's been pretty average this year if you take out Russ's mad scrambling performances. He's never offered top tier pass pro, and those who cite Wilson's tendency to hold on to the ball as a contributory factor to this fail to acknowledge his elusiveness in avoiding sacks; which more than balances it out.

The most elusive quarterback in the league got sacked 44 times last year, and whilst he's currently on course for 34, only Denver rank in the top 10 in sacks per game (3rd, Washington 11th, Green Bay 15th, Carolina 16th, San Diego 20th, Dallas 28th, St. Louis 32nd). Oh, and only Houston throw the ball less than us.

 

[RiverDog]

As we move on from Lynch, it's hard to believe this team can have the same success running the ball (at least, immediately). If this is the case then we can expect an increase in our passing attack. Is anybody genuinely comfortable with the thought of a Tom Cable O-line protecting our franchise QB (who's absolutely going to get paid like one next year) as our pass plays increase?

Cable's meat and potatoes is in the run game, and even that's been pretty average this year if you take out Russ's mad scrambling performances. He's never offered top tier pass pro, and those who cite Wilson's tendency to hold on to the ball as a contributory factor to this fail to acknowledge his elusiveness in avoiding sacks; which more than balances it out.

The most elusive quarterback in the league got sacked 44 times last year, and whilst he's currently on course for 34, only Denver rank in the top 10 in sacks per game (3rd, Washington 11th, Green Bay 15th, Carolina 16th, San Diego 20th, Dallas 28th, St. Louis 32nd). Oh, and only Houston throw the ball less than us.

All good points. If you go back to Cable's time with Oakland, you'll see the same trend, ie a good running game and very poor pass protection.

Most of the times, when Russell is holding onto the ball for 4-5 seconds, he ends up either breaking the pocket and running or throws it away. I don't see him taking many sacks because he's being hesitant. And even if he did occasionally get sacked due to his hesitancy, it isn't often enough to outweigh the other factors you brought out, ie we throw the ball less, mobile quarterback, et al.

IMO there was a reason why Peyton didn't board that plane Paul Allen sent out to Denver when Manning was a free agent, and it wasn't because he didn't want to play in the rain.

 

[dumbrabbit]

Hey guys, our pass rush up to last game has been rather crappy. Why hasn't anyone started a fire Travis Jones thread?

 

[Scottemojo]

IMO, those who think our O-line is terrible are grossly misinformed.

The penaties, especially pre-snap, are just plain terrible. No excuses, and the very well could be part of Tom Cable and his instruction, the Raiders certainly never lacked for them under his tenure either. Okung and Carpenter don't look at the ball pre snap on the road in noise, if Okung got called for every time he was a tic early on the snap he would have 30 false starts this year.

The way they work it for noise is like this (at least with Schilling), Carpenter is in charge of looking at Russell over his right shoulder while Schilling calls out what the defense is doing pre snap. When Russ stomps the ground, Carp yells at Okung to get ready, and slaps Schilling on the ass. Schilling does a predetermined silent, then lets the ball go. For Okung and Carpenter, it's all guesswork as to when Schilling is going to let it go, and there have been some penalties because of it. It looks to me like Sweezy and Britt are communicating similar to Carp and Okung.

Problem is, I can't think of a better way to do it, unless they just go under center and lose the gun on the road. But they can't, the pistol is part of the scheme now.

I am guessing that issue is endemic to all shotgun teams on the road. If anybody knows a better way, pray tell.

On to the rest. IMO, a bad pass, whether picked or dropped by the defense, is no different than a dropped pass or a missed block. Yet, on all forums for all teams, a missed block is treated far worse than the other two infractions, unless of course the player in question has long since run out of goodwill from fans. The coordination of pass defense is no less intricate that the coordination of routes and passes.

The offensive line left by Ruskell WAS terrible. The offensive line that Pete worked with his first year and a half was just plain awful. The run game was bad, the pass blocking worse. Holding the ball long enough for the WR to run a long route was russian roulette with 4 bullets. Doing so without max protect was russian roulette with a semi automatic. If you think the current line is terrible, perhaps you have forgotten just how bad is formerly was.

Britt has played incredibly well for a rookie who was in a spread in college. In a lot of ways, he was a project like Sweezy, the difference between spread blocking and hand in the dirt is monumental. STL didn't even ask Greg Robinson to do it, they put him at guard to make the transition to the NFL, and he was damn good at tackle in college. The fact that Britt is even average at it is a testament to Cable.

Sweezy is a stud. Yes, he has the high profile mistakes. He also kicks ass, and defenses are starting to make sure they notice where he is. Linebackers are wary of the guy for sure. And Britt is imitating his aggressive down field style. Once again, Cable.

Carpenter has vastly improved. He is like Sweezy, his mistakes are glaring, but he is a matchup nightmare for a profile of DTs that includes guys like Justin Smith. If you expect him to do well vs Aaron Donald, you are nuts. That isn't on Cable, it is simply a matchup issue Seattle will be forced to scheme around.

And Cable has no control over Okung's health.

For years, Pittsburg fans have complained about their offensive lines, even the SB squads had terrible OL ratings. However, a ton of those crappy ratings hung on Ben holding the ball a long time.

Guess who holds the ball a long time, longer than Ben? Yep, Russ. Some of what looks like bad pass pro is our QB doing his thing. Some is defenses sending more guys than we have blockers because the biggest hole in Russ's game is how he handles gap blitzes. Some of what looks like bad run blocking is RBs, including Lynch, not being decisive with the one cut and go.

I consider our offensive line to be an above average unit, all things considered.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

IMO, those who think our O-line is terrible are grossly misinformed.

The penaties, especially pre-snap, are just plain terrible. No excuses, and the very well could be part of Tom Cable and his instruction, the Raiders certainly never lacked for them under his tenure either. Okung and Carpenter don't look at the ball pre snap on the road in noise, if Okung got called for every time he was a tic early on the snap he would have 30 false starts this year.

The way they work it for noise is like this (at least with Schilling), Carpenter is in charge of looking at Russell over his right shoulder while Schilling calls out what the defense is doing pre snap. When Russ stomps the ground, Carp yells at Okung to get ready, and slaps Schilling on the ass. Schilling does a predetermined silent, then lets the ball go. For Okung and Carpenter, it's all guesswork as to when Schilling is going to let it go, and there have been some penalties because of it. It looks to me like Sweezy and Britt are communicating similar to Carp and Okung.

Problem is, I can't think of a better way to do it, unless they just go under center and lose the gun on the road. But they can't, the pistol is part of the scheme now.

I am guessing that issue is endemic to all shotgun teams on the road. If anybody knows a better way, pray tell.

On to the rest. IMO, a bad pass, whether picked or dropped by the defense, is no different than a dropped pass or a missed block. Yet, on all forums for all teams, a missed block is treated far worse than the other two infractions, unless of course the player in question has long since run out of goodwill from fans. The coordination of pass defense is no less intricate that the coordination of routes and passes.

The offensive line left by Ruskell WAS terrible. The offensive line that Pete worked with his first year and a half was just plain awful. The run game was bad, the pass blocking worse. Holding the ball long enough for the WR to run a long route was russian roulette with 4 bullets. Doing so without max protect was russian roulette with a semi automatic. If you think the current line is terrible, perhaps you have forgotten just how bad is formerly was.

Britt has played incredibly well for a rookie who was in a spread in college. In a lot of ways, he was a project like Sweezy, the difference between spread blocking and hand in the dirt is monumental. STL didn't even ask Greg Robinson to do it, they put him at guard to make the transition to the NFL, and he was damn good at tackle in college. The fact that Britt is even average at it is a testament to Cable.

Sweezy is a stud. Yes, he has the high profile mistakes. He also kicks ass, and defenses are starting to make sure they notice where he is. Linebackers are wary of the guy for sure. And Britt is imitating his aggressive down field style. Once again, Cable.

Carpenter has vastly improved. He is like Sweezy, his mistakes are glaring, but he is a matchup nightmare for a profile of DTs that includes guys like Justin Smith. If you expect him to do well vs Aaron Donald, you are nuts. That isn't on Cable, it is simply a matchup issue Seattle will be forced to scheme around.

And Cable has no control over Okung's health.

For years, Pittsburg fans have complained about their offensive lines, even the SB squads had terrible OL ratings. However, a ton of those crappy ratings hung on Ben holding the ball a long time.

Guess who holds the ball a long time, longer than Ben? Yep, Russ. Some of what looks like bad pass pro is our QB doing his thing. Some is defenses sending more guys than we have blockers because the biggest hole in Russ's game is how he handles gap blitzes. Some of what looks like bad run blocking is RBs, including Lynch, not being decisive with the one cut and go.

I consider our offensive line to be an above average unit, all things considered.

This post marks the beginning of your .NET career's decline, because you could not possibly top it.

I would add, just as a thought exercise, how easy is it to block for a QB like Russell Wilson who can NOT be relied on to step up in the pocket? His linemen never have any idea where he'll be. At least Tom Brady's offensive line can guess where he'll be (in the pocket, religiously) and build a habit out of adjusting to that.