FAO 49ers fans

[Popeyejones]

If its so easy to teach someone to progress through all their reads then why doesn't Kap do it?

I think you probably already know the lurking flaw in this question.

Heck, let's put it to the test. Let's both watch the All-22 (so you can actually see what's happening in the pass game) of both games this weekend and keep it mind. Time stamp when it happens.

We're not interested in plays breaking down or either of them bailing on the pocket and trying to improvise as people go free. We're interested in them getting through their progressions and going to secondary or tertiary reads while in the pocket under 5 seconds.

It's a single game so it is possible for it to be unrepresentative and the 9ers offense (even less so than the Hawks offense) is designed for this, but let's go for it. Yeah?

Only question: what do you want to do with check-downs? I'm strongly inclined to not include them (I just think they're categorically different (e.g. Alex Smith mucking up designed plays by checking down shouldn't count as going through reads), but if you want to make a case for it, go ahead (Particularly true also if a team is down and in passing mode and chewing up clock and yards on check downs, which just shouldn't count IMO).

 

[Popeyejones]

I've watched a lot of QB's in recent years... hundreds of hours of tape (and documented all my views, they're all published).

Oh, cool. Didn't know that. If you have access to 22 college tape and people are paying you to publish your evaluations on the position then that's obviously what you're basing your statements on. Link?

http://www.seahawksdraftblog.com

Watching Hawkwow and PopeyeJones go at it is hilarious.

Thanks for the link. :th2thumbs:

 

[Smelly McUgly]

The above exercise would be pointless.

OK, Kaepernick is a one-read QB according to guys like Greg Cosell that actually watch the tape and know what they're talking about. Hell, there are guys in this thread that have undoubtedly watched more tape in an offseason than Popeye (or myself for that matter) ever will and know more about Kaepernick being a one-read-and-go kinda guy. This is what he was told to do at Nevada. I'll take that over regular joes like Popeye and myself wanking off over All-22 film.

So, if at this point we can stipulate that he is mostly a one-read-and-run QB (and I think we can because experts, and besides them Trent Dilfer, have come to that consensus), that is because of one of two things:

1. He is incapable of progressing through his reads.
2. Harbaugh/Roman/Chryst/whoever else has input into the passing plays are designing plays meant to be one-read-and-run/are telling Kaepernick to make one read and then go.

So it's a chicken-or-egg deal. Is Kaepernick hobbled by the coaches, or are the coaches forced to call plays like this because Kaepernick can't progress through reads? We'll never know.

 

[Popeyejones]

The above exercise would be pointless.

Only if we operate under the assumption that nobody knows what they're talking about or can correctly diagnose what's happening on a football field.

OK, Kaepernick is a one-read QB according to guys like Greg Cosell that actually watch the tape and know what they're talking about.

Link?

And if we want to treat Cosell as the expert worth listening to, he confirms basically everything I've said in this thread and have gotten blowback about. :lol:

On Alex Smith and Kaepernick, and why Kaepernick better fits what they're trying to do than Alex.

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/ ... -champion/

On the reads thing being a part of the 49er scheme:

The 49ers do not ask quarterback Colin Kaepernick to do a lot of progression reading. They scheme his success. Against the Seahawks, the 49ers struggled to scheme open receivers. Shifts, motion, bunch and stack formations were not a part of the 49ers' approach, as they were against the Packers.

These are the things I've been saying. :lol:

 

[Smelly McUgly]

He just did a podcast agreeing with that dolt Trent Dilfer, who I think is an idiot, regarding Kaepernick's inability to progress through reads and yeah I know dammit it's on me to produce the link but I don't have it right now so give me some time and also the benefit of the doubt until then.

 

[SeaTown81]

I've watched a lot of QB's in recent years... hundreds of hours of tape (and documented all my views, they're all published).

Oh, cool. Didn't know that. If you have access to 22 college tape and people are paying you to publish your evaluations on the position then that's obviously what you're basing your statements on. Link?

http://www.seahawksdraftblog.com

Watching Hawkwow and PopeyeJones go at it is hilarious.

Thanks for the link. :th2thumbs:

Rob (English) actually mocked Kaep to the Hawks in 2011. Here's a post he made on CK right before the draft. Just because the entire world outside of SF can see CK's game running into issues, doesn't mean they're all horrendously biased and SF haters.

http://seahawksdraftblog.com/prospect-t ... easures-up

 

[Popeyejones]

Rob (English) actually mocked Kaep to the Hawks in 2011. Here's a post he made on CK right before the draft. Just because the entire world outside of SF can see CK's game running into issues, doesn't mean they're all horrendously biased and SF haters.

http://seahawksdraftblog.com/prospect-t ... easures-up

Thanks for the link. So he saw Kaep's game as improving, and seemed to think he was a better prospect than Dalton, Gabbert or Locker, but not as good of a prospect as Luck. And there's literally nothing there predicting that CK's play would run into issues.

In turn, I obviously have never claimed that "the entire world outside of SF" is "all horredously biased and SF haters." That would be a remarkably stupid claim to make or stance to take. Perhaps that's why you're pretending that I did?

What I do believe: If Kaepernick had been drafted by some 6-3 team in the AFC a very strong majority of people here wouldn't really care about him at all. You guys definitely wouldn't be making up fictional stories about him not shaking hands after the Panthers game in order to justify your antipathy for him, and you definitely wouldn't be moralizing about how he had headphones around his neck in a post-game press conference. You wouldn't say he was unserious and not dedicated every time you saw him laugh on the sideline, and you wouldn't say he was sullen and not a leader every time you saw him being expressionless on the sideline. Even your own Rob, like many other draft analysts, noted his humility before he was drafted by your rival. Now that he was drafted by your rival, everything and anything he does will be criticized by some here. When he does well he won't get credit, and when he does poorly it will be poured over in gloating detail. When he does charity work (which he does a lot of) you'll say it's because he's a phony and just into his own image (which people said), and when he's frustrated after a win you'll say he's selfish and a narcissist. It's because he's your rival's QB.

The funny part is that we both know full well that if the Hawks had happened to draft Kaepernick and the 49ers had happened to draft Wilson, you guys would be bashing Wilson on this forum and the webzone would be bashing Kaepernick. It's nothing if not obvious.

 

[hawker84]

you don't see anyone on here bashing RGIII or Tannehill, or even Luck other than to say he came into the league with a silver spoon in his mouth, which is true, but he's proven that he is what they said he'd be. No question all three of them have talent, and none of them have done anything ouside of football to warrent a bashing. Kap on the other hand does something on a weekly basis.

Hat
Naked pics
baby attitude after losses
run off the field without congratulating the other teams qb
send out tweet to tell his own fan base to shove it
spiking the ball at denfenders head and getting penalty

shall i go on.

In other words, the bashing is warrented, it's not about his play it's about how he conducts himself. i still think he has all the talent in the world, but he needs to get his head right, and the coaches need to start putting him in better situation to succeed and not setting him up to fail like: ( abandoning the running game).

I mean name one thing to bash wilson about? not trying to be a homer here, but he's just a good dude and a really good football player.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

Oh, people here bash RGIII, and unfairly in my view. Hell, I think some of the Kaepernick bashing is silly too, when it comes down to it.

I don't know if people would be bashing Wilson in the same way. We'd probably get irritated at how he always seems to pull out a victory, and there might be people expressing uncomfortability with how straightforward he is about his faith that doesn't get mentioned around here, but Wilson just doesn't carry himself that differently from the mainstream culture, so there would be less to bash about him.

Also, he's playing well, much better than Kaepernick is - there would be grudging respect like you see Niners fans tend to give Wilson (except for those that are delusional about Wilson playing poorly, but honestly there are less people like that in the Niner fanbase than I thought there might be.

 

[hawk45]

Argue that Kaepernick doesn't have targets this year okay, but arguing that the coaches are preventing Kaepernick from actuating his super progression powers doesn't pass the smell test. No coach in their right mind would scheme for a single receiving option unless they felt that this was their best chance for success. Why would they think making their offense so utterly defensible is their best chance? I can't think of a reason that doesn't include less than full confidence that their QB is ready to handle more than 1 receiving option.

And as far as the idea that Kaepernick's issues are easily fixable because he never learned progressions whereas Russell is broken because he bails out of the pocket sometimes i.e. he has progressions but doesn't follow them, that may be even more delusional than the idea of those dastardly SF coaches holding back Kaepernick's magic progression ability. Wilson hasn't had time in ANY game this year. Carolina he had a healthy OL but you just faced Carolina so you understand the futility of evaluating a QB against them (although you will note Russell passed for over 300 yards on the road).

The rest of the season if he's bailed early it's to save his life. And counter to suggestions that this is now an ingrained habit, in the Atlanta game where he did have time he destroyed the Atlanta D largely within the pocket.

Of the 2 QBs, 1 of them is facing a severe sophomore slump due to inability to respond to the defensive adjustments vs the R/O in the offseason and some injuries. Both QBs have serious injury situations, yet one of them has managed to be the decisive factor in all the games he's played.

Which one has shown they can adapt and move past prior bad habits and mistakes again?

Like I say, I'm receptive to the notion Kaepernick looks much much better when his receivers come back. If I were arguing for Kaep, that would be the hill I'd choose to die on, not the other weak stuff.

 

[rideaducati]

It's very difficult to teach a QB to go through his reads.

Most either can do it or they can't.

Alex Smith sure got a lot better at it. He was useless as a 1st or 2nd year guy. He got better and better every year at reads and progressions and going to the right guy. He has some arm strength limitations but he got better at reading the field and making the right decision. It's one of the things he is best at and one of the reasons K.C. is 9 - 0.

So a QB can get better at that as their career progresses.

I'm calling BULLSHIT! Alex Smith throws to his checkdown receiver EVERY TIME. He takes the snap, looks around for couple seconds and then throws to his check down. Good decisions? Probably, because he sucks when he throws the ball more than 6 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage. The EXACT same thing he started to do in frisco.

 

[SeaTown81]

Kaep doesn't like Trent Diler calling him "remedial".


http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_245 ... -criticism

Sorry Niner fans. But as your chief rival, I just love seeing your team leader allow himself to get caught up in such silly nonsense. If my qb wast spending his down time retweeting internet trolls, I'd be so scared. And if he replied to Dilfer's criticism thusly, I'd be ready to throw in the towel. Face it, you don't exactly have the most mentally sound guy qb'ing your team. Dude is fragile as hell.

 

[Popeyejones]

I'm calling BULLSHIT! Alex Smith throws to his checkdown receiver EVERY TIME. He takes the snap, looks around for couple seconds and then throws to his check down. Good decisions? Probably, because he sucks when he throws the ball more than 6 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage. The EXACT same thing he started to do in frisco.

TBF, agreed on this point (which I know is rare for us. ). Checking down is the smart decision a lot of times, but the way Smith does it, it's basically just a different form of abandoning the play.

Smith's skill set is actually a pretty good fit for the version of the WCO that Reid wants to run, but really wasn't at all in the the branch that Harbaugh is working off of.

 

[Popeyejones]

You know it. Fans tend to be homers - it's just the way it is.

But hey, I actually spent an hour reading a 49er thread on the Seahawks the other day. First and last time for that! At least not as many fans here are pooping on themselves to refer to Kaep as satan incarnate (like 49er fans go on about Sherman) or implying that they would like the entire 49ers team poisoned with Ricin (like the 49er fans posted about the Seahawks - that the 49er moderators did not remove, btw).

:lol: :lol:

I don't doubt it. I mean heck, I prefer being on the receiving end of a lot of the .net nonsense to even bothering reading the webzone nonsense, which should tell 'ya something.

All that being said... and setting aside bias. Something is definitely "off" with Kaep. He does not appear to be handling pressure well. I am not saying he is "done" or that he has peaked and he will never be great, what I am saying is that he is struggling and his last press conference (covered in another thread) made me go "wtf?"

Maybe I am just spoiled by RW, and before that -- all those Hasselback years where he gave quite the good post loss interview that made you feel good about the future, but man, I have not seen a QB turtle in a press meeting like Kaep since Rick Mirer was chucking balls around up here.

And that is exactly who Kaep reminded me of right there, the staring down and avoiding eye contact, the not giving any credit to the other team... Rick effin Mirer... not saying that's how it will go down for Kaep, careerwise, but woa, that scene brought up some ugly 90's flashbacks. Thinking back to that first great rookie season by Mirer and the subsequent regression into football hell ... not a memory I want to re-live.

Fair enough. Personally I'm not that worried. I've watched a ton of his press conferences, and that really wasn't that much different. I mean, he was obviously frustrated (as he should be), but him giving clipped responses, not making that much eye contact and not really socially engaging in press conferences is the same regardless of if he's had the worst day of his pro career, or just won the NFC Championship game. I think there has been a lot of overreaction. The Hawks beat the Panthers 12-7. The 9ers lost to the Panthers 10-9. Anyone losing their sh!t over this 9ers game, be they 9ers fans or Hawks fans, is being kinda silly, IMO.

With the Panthers game followed by the next four, I've been hoping that the 9ers go 3-2, and won't be concerned really if they go 2-3 (1-4 would be a problem, IMO).

If I were a 49er fan, I'd be terrified - it's no wonder some are hitting the panic button. (probably premature, but still... you never ever ever want to see your QB doing the "Mirer" !)

Disagree on this. Some 9ers fans are hitting the panic button because some 9ers fans are emotional messes. Every time the team wins they talk about going undefeated for the rest of the season, and every time the team loses they talk about how hopeless it is and everyone who should be fired. It's no differen than all the meltdowns that happened on this forum when the Hawks barely beat the Rams (and imagine if the Hawks had actually lost ). Overall I think all of us (myself included) pay too much attention to the low hanging fruit of opposing fanbases.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Kaep doesn't like Trent Diler calling him "remedial".


http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_245 ... -criticism

Sorry Niner fans. But as your chief rival, I just love seeing your team leader allow himself to get caught up in such silly nonsense. If my qb wast spending his down time retweeting internet trolls, I'd be so scared. And if he replied to Dilfer's criticism thusly, I'd be ready to throw in the towel. Face it, you don't exactly have the most mentally sound guy qb'ing your team. Dude is fragile as hell.

^THIS^ :th2thumbs:

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

You know it. Fans tend to be homers - it's just the way it is.

But hey, I actually spent an hour reading a 49er thread on the Seahawks the other day. First and last time for that! At least not as many fans here are pooping on themselves to refer to Kaep as satan incarnate (like 49er fans go on about Sherman) or implying that they would like the entire 49ers team poisoned with Ricin (like the 49er fans posted about the Seahawks - that the 49er moderators did not remove, btw).

:lol: :lol:

I don't doubt it. I mean heck, I prefer being on the receiving end of a lot of the .net nonsense to even bothering reading the webzone nonsense, which should tell 'ya something.

All that being said... and setting aside bias. Something is definitely "off" with Kaep. He does not appear to be handling pressure well. I am not saying he is "done" or that he has peaked and he will never be great, what I am saying is that he is struggling and his last press conference (covered in another thread) made me go "wtf?"

Maybe I am just spoiled by RW, and before that -- all those Hasselback years where he gave quite the good post loss interview that made you feel good about the future, but man, I have not seen a QB turtle in a press meeting like Kaep since Rick Mirer was chucking balls around up here.

And that is exactly who Kaep reminded me of right there, the staring down and avoiding eye contact, the not giving any credit to the other team... Rick effin Mirer... not saying that's how it will go down for Kaep, careerwise, but woa, that scene brought up some ugly 90's flashbacks. Thinking back to that first great rookie season by Mirer and the subsequent regression into football hell ... not a memory I want to re-live.

Fair enough. Personally I'm not that worried. I've watched a ton of his press conferences, and that really wasn't that much different. I mean, he was obviously frustrated (as he should be), but him giving clipped responses, not making that much eye contact and not really socially engaging in press conferences is the same regardless of if he's had the worst day of his pro career, or just won the NFC Championship game. I think there has been a lot of overreaction. The Hawks beat the Panthers 12-7. The 9ers lost to the Panthers 10-9. Anyone losing their sh!t over this 9ers game, be they 9ers fans or Hawks fans, is being kinda silly, IMO.

With the Panthers game followed by the next four, I've been hoping that the 9ers go 3-2, and won't be concerned really if they go 2-3 (1-4 would be a problem, IMO).

If I were a 49er fan, I'd be terrified - it's no wonder some are hitting the panic button. (probably premature, but still... you never ever ever want to see your QB doing the "Mirer" !)

Disagree on this. Some 9ers fans are hitting the panic button because some 9ers fans are emotional messes. Every time the team wins they talk about going undefeated for the rest of the season, and every time the team loses they talk about how hopeless it is and everyone who should be fired. It's no differen than all the meltdowns that happened on this forum when the Hawks barely beat the Rams (and imagine if the Hawks had actually lost ). Overall I think all of us (myself included) pay too much attention to the low hanging fruit of opposing fanbases.

Don't mistake me for one of the fans who thinks Kaep is going to fail because I "want" him to. I thought he was going to be much better than he is. Just saying... I see bad signs right now, and if he were my QB I would be nervous as hell.

Well, yes, and low hanging fruit there is. I am fairly convinced that most of the fair weather Raiders fans who gave up on their team, became 49ers and Seahawk fans in the last few years. Speaking as an OLD school fan here... who was at the very first game in the Kingdome back in 76' and was at the first game in Qwest. I am currently not so happy with the amount of hawk fans talking smack on the net. I've always had a significant amount of pride in being a part of a very civil fanbase, and unfortunately the current run of success has brought out some bozo's in blue.

I get the fans who bitch about calls, after all, it would take about 10 fail mary's to make up for the atrocious calls that have gone against this team over the years, including a few that cost playoffs... we aren't quite Cleveland or Houston, or the Raiders... but, still, we have had some bad bad breaks that have cost coaching jobs, we are snakebit as a fanbase, so I don't hold the ref angst against hawk fans, but what I don't get is the new ultra cocky vibe. "Yea, we are going to WIN the Superbowl, we own all the other teams..." and all that sort of nonsense.

If you are smart, you know that this is not the freaking NBA, and that the difference between the worst team in the league and the best team, really comes down to perhaps a 25% margin. Football is a game of emotion, ebbs, and flows and above all "matchups" that "on any given Sunday" is gospel truth. In the last ten years, the best team in the NFL has won about 3 Superbowls... that Patriots team was awesome, but they ran into a "bad matchup" and "poof" the dream died.

This Seahawk team is the best talentwise I have seen in all the years I have watched, but I know it can't last in the salary cap era, and I understand that all it takes is one bad matchup, a string where the other team gets hot, and we are going to have our hearts broken. There are about 8 teams that could win this Superbowl, 1 will, the others won't, and no amount of talking by fans will change how it plays out.

Logic? Really? I hate you.

 

[hawk45]

This thread was a lot more fun when it was tweaking the Niners about their QB instead of turning into a "pump your brakes" thread about the Hawks winning the Superbowl.

I don't think Seattle fans need a lesson in how difficult it is to get a ring, or how easily that goal is thwarted, we all remember XL for Christ's sake. I don't hear anyone spouting about destiny, I hear them enjoying a season where we have a chance at the prize.

 

[hawk45]

The "aside" was 2 paragraphs in a 4 paragraph post, hence a little bit of the feeling of a lecture. That and the "if you are smart" preface.

But on reareading I can see that it can also be taken as a simple statement of personal opinion as well. My bad.

 

[Sterling Archer]

The above exercise would be pointless.

Only if we operate under the assumption that nobody knows what they're talking about or can correctly diagnose what's happening on a football field.

OK, Kaepernick is a one-read QB according to guys like Greg Cosell that actually watch the tape and know what they're talking about.

Link?

And if we want to treat Cosell as the expert worth listening to, he confirms basically everything I've said in this thread and have gotten blowback about. :lol:

On Alex Smith and Kaepernick, and why Kaepernick better fits what they're trying to do than Alex.

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/ ... -champion/

On the reads thing being a part of the 49er scheme:

The 49ers do not ask quarterback Colin Kaepernick to do a lot of progression reading. They scheme his success. Against the Seahawks, the 49ers struggled to scheme open receivers. Shifts, motion, bunch and stack formations were not a part of the 49ers' approach, as they were against the Packers.

These are the things I've been saying. :lol:

That Cosell article you posted is from a year ago after what I believe was his first start vs. the Saints. That basically indicates to me that it is old news. And basically all Cosell said was that Kaep gives you a higher ceiling than Smith did, which basically everyone in the world would agree with. The problem with Kaep right now is that he is struggling to get past the first floor.

I think were I a niner fan, I'd have at least some apprehension based off of Kaep's current performance, lack of weapons or not. I thought Kaep played really well last year. Similarly as with Wilson, I wanted to see how they both performed this year after having tape on them and giving Defenses a chance to scheme more in depth against the style of offense they were running. So far Kaep's play on the field has regressed and he seems to really struggle against talented defenses.

 

[Popeyejones]

That Cosell article you posted is from a year ago after what I believe was his first start vs. the Saints...And basically all Cosell said was that Kaep gives you a higher ceiling than Smith did

For clarification, I was responding to a poster citing Cosell's thoughts on Kap (w/out linking to any), and that interview and the other one I posted were the two most recent times I saw that he has talked about him.

I included this to point out that if we treat Cosell as knowledgeable, when talking about Smith's poor fit in what the 9ers want to do, it's kind of bizarre for me to be getting crap for saying essentially the exact same things that Cosell had already observed.

It wasn't intended to be a current referendum on Kap. As I said in the post, it was pointing out that Cosell shared my observations about Smith and Kap in the offense. Sorry if that wasn't clear. (FWIW If you watch both Kap and Smith this year, those things haven't changed either).