Geno Smith the headcase

[Ozzy]

And also is a winning record good enough? Like the M’s have a winning record and I’m sick of them. I want more than a winning record. I think geno is good enough and if we surrounded him with good line play and running game and defense we could win a superbowl but so did Trent dilfer and nick foles

And Flacco and Cousins are more pressured and putting up better numbers. Is Flacco top 5 now guys? Cousins too? Keasely you argued Seattle's weapons aren't good, are they better than Flacco's weapons? This isn't directed at you Sperry but to the guys making the argument that having Geno 10th or lower is an insult.

 

[Ozzy]

And I like that you guys love Geno. It makes rooting every Sunday more fun. I root for Geno too I just don't have him quite as high as you guys do. I still get just as excited every time he scores or plays well and he does a lot of things well. I'm really hoping some continuity on the line with Abe back, Olu playing well, Defense playing really good again etc.....lots to be excited about.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

Geno may have slowed down the Howell train, but it’s probably still on the tracks. I wanted to try to draft Nix last year. I still want to draft a QB. The Draft QB vs. Howell Train debate will probably heat up as the draft approaches.

 

[Sperrydogg]

And I like that you guys love Geno. It makes rooting every Sunday more fun. I root for Geno too I just don't have him quite as high as you guys do. I still get just as excited every time he scores or plays well and he does a lot of things well. I'm really hoping some continuity on the line with Abe back, Olu playing well, Defense playing really good again etc.....lots to be excited about.

I’m not a fan of geno. He’s a hawk but that’s it. Don’t trust him and can’t stand his attitude. Can’t stand trash talk. I like respect not antics. Win with honor and when you lose hold your head up.

 

[Maelstrom787]

What’s frustrating is by default any points you don’t agree with is surface level and stupid, come on man that’s BS.

My contention that Geno is 10-15 range is every bit as objective as your opinion is. I have valid reasons for thinking so as well yet long standing measures like passer rating, QBR, TD/INT numbers, decision making, PFF grade etc is all labeled as stupid and outdated because it’s not ADOT, or EPA etc because it doesn’t fit the narrative. I even used nfl execs and was chastised for that.

This works both ways man and no one is a victim. The vast majority don’t have Geno top 5-10 as you do and that’s perfectly fine. You’ve also made comments about “limp dicks” and thrown insults as well. We’ve let it go because it’s a fun debate and both sides have crossed the line at times. Multiple people on your side have said some crappy things to multiple members as well. Quit with the “one side is encouraged” stuff it’s not fair.

Where am I supposed to start with this one, dude? Half of this is you arguing against stuff I didn't even say.

I didn't say that ALL conflicting opinions were surface level, nor did I call them all stupid. I also didn't say anything about you ranking him 10-15 not being an objective viewpoint. I said nothing of the sort. At all. My rub is with those who dismiss deeper analysis with only surface level arguments like "he hasn't thrown 4 touchdowns in a game" or "he's not clutch despite a lot of evidence of clutch play." If those people are going to call me a fanboy or "Geno's mom" or whatever, then yeah, it'd be cool to see some real analysis backing that up.

Ranking him 10-15 is perfectly fine, dude. I think thats a fine viewpoint. I don't even necessarily disagree. There's no possibility for a good faith conversation if you're going to run a crusade against sentiments that you attribute to me despite me not having expressed those sentiments.

And that's another thing - you always say we're taking stuff personally when there's a disagreement. What's up with that? We're engaging in the same discourse and, if I'm taking it personally, you're taking it just as personally.

The only people taking it personally are people who think dissenting opinions are actually stifling discussion rather than stimulating it. That's a minority, but it's there.

 

[Sperrydogg]

And Flacco and Cousins are more pressured and putting up better numbers. Is Flacco top 5 now guys? Cousins too? Keasely you argued Seattle's weapons aren't good, are they better than Flacco's weapons? This isn't directed at you Sperry but to the guys making the argument that having Geno 10th or lower is an insult.

I’ve been laughed at for saying this buts there’s more than ten quarterbacks I’d trade geno for for sure

 

[Maelstrom787]

Now we're arguing Geno has bad weapons at the skill positions when his #3 receiver might be the most reliable #3 in the league, We have the first running back taken in his draft class and a special talent in Walker and DK/JSN are monsters. Add to that that almost none of his interceptions are his fault lol. I'm out on this one now.

This. This right here.

That is absolutely not what he said. I'm sorry, but it simply isn't.

He did not make a declaration about the caliber of our overall stable of offensive skill players. He made a Chase to Metcalf comparison of the WR1.

He also pointed to the analysis of other film experts when discussing his actual interceptions and how many were solely the fault of him making a poor decision. That's entirely valid, as laughable as you might find it.

I just cannot see how this is a fair way to interact with somebody who is making cogent points in good faith.

 

[Ozzy]

Where am I supposed to start with this one, dude? Half of this is you arguing against stuff I didn't even say.

I didn't say that ALL conflicting opinions were surface level, nor did I call them all stupid. I also didn't say anything about you ranking him 10-15 not being an objective viewpoint. I said nothing of the sort. At all. My rub is with those who dismiss deeper analysis with only surface level arguments like "he hasn't thrown 4 touchdowns in a game" or "he's not clutch despite a lot of evidence of clutch play." If those people are going to call me a fanboy or "Geno's mom" or whatever, then yeah, it'd be cool to see some real analysis backing that up.

Ranking him 10-15 is perfectly fine, dude. I think thats a fine viewpoint. I don't even necessarily disagree. There's no possibility for a good faith conversation if you're going to run a crusade against sentiments that you attribute to me despite me not having expressed those sentiments.

And that's another thing - you always say we're taking stuff personally when there's a disagreement. What's up with that? We're engaging in the same discourse and, if I'm taking it personally, you're taking it just as personally.

The only people taking it personally are people who think dissenting opinions are actually stifling discussion rather than stimulating it. That's a minority, but it's there.

You made a blanket statement implying everyone who disagrees falls into that category. It also is mentioend by others in the debate.

I'm not the one who said I was being targeted or encouraged by the mods which is what you seemed to imply.

And fair enough there have been some bad arguments from the other side, but this is also true of your side of this debate as well. Now not you but by others so again my statement was in response to you but some of it was just for everyone as well, I should've separated it a little better but my best friend just committed suicide so I'm probably not in the best space to get my thoughts out.

My main point is no one is encouraging anyone to be rude to you. Bad faith arguments have been made by both sides. Lets all clean it up and if someone disagrees with any of us on Geno have some fun with it and don't take it personal or think they're less of a fan, dumb, not an analytical giant or whatever. This goes for everyone.

 

[Ozzy]

This. This right here.

That is absolutely not what he said. I'm sorry, but it simply isn't.

He did not make a declaration about the caliber of our overall stable of offensive skill players. He made a Chase to Metcalf comparison of the WR1.

He also pointed to the analysis of other film experts when discussing his actual interceptions and how many were solely the fault of him making a poor decision. That's entirely valid, as laughable as you might find it.

I just cannot see how this is a fair way to interact with somebody who is making cogent points in good faith.

He literally took offense to the argument that Geno has a great supporting cast. How is this not exactly that?

And dude many of his picks have been terrible on his part and he's gotten entirely lucky that while leading the league in turnover worthy throws many weren't picked. So the idea that some weren't his fault is true, it also ignores the other end of it.

I don't know what to tell you dude. I think its wild you have a problem with one sides bad faith arguments in your opinion but you completely ignore them when its on the pro-Geno side so its hard to take you seriously with this.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I’ve been laughed at for saying this buts there’s more than ten quarterbacks I’d trade geno for for sure

I'd trade him for Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, maybe Lamar (Lamar is better but he's not my style of QB), Justin Herbert, Drake Maye, maybe Nix if he can sustain his current play, CJ Stroud... that's just off the top of my head. I don't think anyone laughing at you is actually that far off from your opinion, at the end of the day.

 

[Maelstrom787]

He literally took offense to the argument that Geno has a great supporting cast. How is this not exactly that?

And dude many of his picks have been terrible on his part and he's gotten entirely lucky that while leading the league in turnover worthy throws many weren't picked. So the idea that some weren't his fault is true, it also ignores the other end of it.

I don't know what to tell you dude. I think its wild you have a problem with one sides bad faith arguments in your opinion but you completely ignore them when its on the pro-Geno side so its hard to take you seriously with this.

He made a comparison of our WR1 vs theirs. That's not the same thing as him saying that Geno's skill position cast is awful. His overall supporting cast has generally been pretty awful though. The supporting cast for a QB is really the entire team.

That's not a bad faith argument. Bad faith arguments are things like misrepresenting what the other person said. Sometimes there are good faith arguments that are just poorly backed up.

I'm not ignoring the other side. There have been some bad faith pro-Geno arguments. I don't think Keasley or I have really been a part of that because both of us are meticulous about using data, context, and film study to back up what we say. We're the most prominent "pro Geno" posters on the board so most of what I see on this side is data-backed and not as opinion or emotionally driven.

Which this thread is an exception because I really made it just as a tip of the cap to a player with an outrageous backstory who just won us a game in the clutch. Wasn't even an analysis thread.

 

[Sperrydogg]

I'd trade him for Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, maybe Lamar (Lamar is better but he's not my style of QB), Justin Herbert, Drake Maye, maybe Nix if he can sustain his current play, CJ Stroud... that's just off the top of my head. I don't think anyone laughing at you is actually that far off from your opinion, at the end of the day.

My opinion is geno is a dork

 

[Sperrydogg]

He made a comparison of our WR1 vs theirs. That's not the same thing as him saying that Geno's skill position cast is awful. His overall supporting cast has generally been pretty awful though. The supporting cast for a QB is really the entire team.

That's not a bad faith argument. Bad faith arguments are things like misrepresenting what the other person said. Sometimes there are good faith arguments that are just poorly backed up.

I'm not ignoring the other side. There have been some bad faith pro-Geno arguments. I don't think Keasley or I have really been a part of that because both of us are meticulous about using data, context, and film study to back up what we say. We're the most prominent "pro Geno" posters on the board so most of what I see on this side is data-backed and not as opinion or emotionally driven.

Which this thread is an exception because I really made it just as a tip of the cap to a player with an outrageous backstory who just won us a game in the clutch. Wasn't even an analysis thread.

Stats can be deceiving I really trust what I’m watching. What matters to me is wins and losses and playoffs. You can talk about all the completion percentage and accuracy you want and come from behind wins too. Those are the stats used to say how good Geno is. I say the stats are win loss and playoffs and games that really count. How many come from behind wins did Geno have that got us into first place or the playoffs. I want him to win but when I watch him play I scream “Geno you SUCK!!!” Like ten times a game. The only game so far that he pulled it out was SF and that was a breakdown

 

[James in PA]

IMO, Geno is a modern day Dave Krieg. When he is on, he looks as good as anyone in the league. But he's too inconsistent to be mentioned with the top guys. I know, I know: the O line. Another factor that adds to the complexity of the Geno debate. Hopefully Abe stays healthy and the line continues to show improvement. Then we should have our answer once and for all.

 

[Bear-Hawk]

IMO, Geno is a modern day Dave Krieg. When he is on, he looks as good as anyone in the league. But he's too inconsistent to be mentioned with the top guys. I know, I know: the O line. Another factor that adds to the complexity of the Geno debate. Hopefully Abe stays healthy and the line continues to show improvement. Then we should have our answer once and for all.

Geno is apt to make a bone-head stupid turnover at the worst possible time. I think some people here get understandably upset by that and maybe don’t give him enough credit for his positive attributes. I don’t know, but it is sort of a strange never-ending debate here.

 

[Ozzy]

He made a comparison of our WR1 vs theirs. That's not the same thing as him saying that Geno's skill position cast is awful. His overall supporting cast has generally been pretty awful though. The supporting cast for a QB is really the entire team.

That's not a bad faith argument. Bad faith arguments are things like misrepresenting what the other person said. Sometimes there are good faith arguments that are just poorly backed up.

I'm not ignoring the other side. There have been some bad faith pro-Geno arguments. I don't think Keasley or I have really been a part of that because both of us are meticulous about using data, context, and film study to back up what we say. We're the most prominent "pro Geno" posters on the board so most of what I see on this side is data-backed and not as opinion or emotionally driven.

Which this thread is an exception because I really made it just as a tip of the cap to a player with an outrageous backstory who just won us a game in the clutch. Wasn't even an analysis thread.

He has argued against the weapons in totality multiple times hence my response. He changed it to Chase vs DK after the point had been made numerous times.

I'm not going to re-hash the rest of it. You love Geno and that's fine. Me and many others don't and that's fine too. I don't hate him or think he's terrible either I just don't think he's this elite top end guy and my data points support my view. Some metrics do favor Geno. Some don't. I think when taken in totality it shows a talented QB who is flawed and makes a lot of mistakes. He also makes spectacular plays. He is just like the rest of the guys in his range.

I will say you claiming you just make a tip of the cap post and nothing else probably isn't telling the whole story. You constantly poke at people who are anti Geno in the game day forum or on here just as people poke at you....it works both ways. By doing that people are going to use that backdrop to judge a post like this and you knew this is what it would turn into I would think. It's not a bad thing as its ok to debate and have fun with these topics. Hell its the most active thread on the forum. What I don't like is you claiming you guys are singled out and that the staff is encouraging it. That's BS and that's why I responded the way I did. No one is a victim here, not you and not anyone else.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Geno is apt to make a bone-head stupid turnover at the worst possible time. I think some people here get understandably upset by that and maybe don’t give him enough credit for his positive attributes. I don’t know, but it is sort of a strange never-ending debate here.

Some think he isn't apt to making bone-headed mistakes though because, after all, he had like 4 or 5 comebacks last season.

 

[Chukarhawk]

Fix the run game and make the O-line not hot garbage. Likely were having a different conversation. Geno's ceiling will always be hovering around the top 10-12 QB's.

 

[strohmin]

Defense has no bearing on a QB's stats, you're reaching with that. I can find multiple examples of QB's with a bad line and a bad running game putting up better numbers than 11 touchdowns and 11 picks.

Dont you think for example a defense that gets off the field in 4 min average giving up 3 points average per drive vs a defense that gets off the field at 8 min average giving up 6 points average per drive has some bearing on QB stats? I feel like this not only limits the number of possessions a QB has but also changes the game plan and adds more mental pressure to a QB.

 

[Ozzy]

Dont you think for example a defense that gets off the field in 4 min average giving up 3 points average per drive vs a defense that gets off the field at 8 min average giving up 6 points average per drive has some bearing on QB stats? I feel like this not only limits the number of possessions a QB has but also changes the game plan and adds more mental pressure to a QB.

Maybe slightly for volume stats but it doesn't move the needle as much as people think. QB's have monster seasons when defenses struggle. Great defenses can actually hurt a QB more because you tend to play really conservative.

I think its way, way down the list for something that would cause a QB to have a great year or a bad year. Your supporting weapons, line play etc are multiple times more impactful.