Geno Smith the headcase

[toffee]

Incredibly frustrating to constantly have deep, solid analysis ignored in favor of surface level narrative.

As if that wasn't bad enough, we then get routine insults claiming that we're not being objective. And it's endorsed.

Remember Mary

 

[Ozzy]

Incredibly frustrating to constantly have deep, solid analysis ignored in favor of surface level narrative.

As if that wasn't bad enough, we then get routine insults claiming that we're not being objective. And it's endorsed.

What’s frustrating is by default any points you don’t agree with is surface level and stupid, come on man that’s BS.

My contention that Geno is 10-15 range is every bit as objective as your opinion is. I have valid reasons for thinking so as well yet long standing measures like passer rating, QBR, TD/INT numbers, decision making, PFF grade etc is all labeled as stupid and outdated because it’s not ADOT, or EPA etc because it doesn’t fit the narrative. I even used nfl execs and was chastised for that.

This works both ways man and no one is a victim. The vast majority don’t have Geno top 5-10 as you do and that’s perfectly fine. You’ve also made comments about “limp dicks” and thrown insults as well. We’ve let it go because it’s a fun debate and both sides have crossed the line at times. Multiple people on your side have said some crappy things to multiple members as well. Quit with the “one side is encouraged” stuff it’s not fair.

 

[Ozzy]

We all have different opinions on Geno and if we’re all being honest we know Geno is unique and can confirm anyone’s opinion on him good or bad on an almost weekly basis. Let’s respect each others opinions and not take everything so personal or assume the other side is dumb, less serious about analytics, not being genuine etc. let’s continue to have some fun with it but be respectful

 

[Natethegreat]

2 Years ago Geno was on the open market and not one team chose to pay him big money. Now maybe they are foolish for not choosing him but I think it makes it pretty clear what league front offices think of Geno. He also was being shopped by JS this last year with no bites from any team.
I'm not an expert but if the entire league seems to value Geno as not worthy of a big contract and doesn't want to trade for him when he is on a team friendly deal, then the general perception of Geno around the league is he is not a top 10 QB in the league.
I think he has a good arm with good accuracy for the most part and plus athleticism especially for his age. He can also struggle with decision making and gets rattled out there at times. Its pretty easy to see really. Credit to Geno for shrugging off a very bad decision that turned into an INT and making the game winning drive happen last Sunday.
He has enough there to win games and at times look great. He also can get rattled and play very poorly. He has some great stretches and he has terrible stretches. So like Ozzy said you can latch onto whatever you want to highlight and paint whatever picture you want to paint.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He's definitely better than Alan Jackson

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Whoa, toffee. Be careful. If you say anything else to me, I'll go cry in every thread about how everyone is so mean to me and how I'm not allowed to have an opinion or something.

Thanks alot, you hurt my internet feelings. Dang it. You love you some you, it's impressive.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Currently or all time?

Currently

 

[Sperrydogg]

Incredibly frustrating to constantly have deep, solid analysis ignored in favor of surface level narrative.

As if that wasn't bad enough, we then get routine insults claiming that we're not being objective. And it's endorsed.

I’m superficial though

 

[Sperrydogg]

Incredibly frustrating to constantly have deep, solid analysis ignored in favor of surface level narrative.

As if that wasn't bad enough, we then get routine insults claiming that we're not being objective. And it's endorsed.

Honestly though, despite all the stats and nice looking throws from Geno, it feels like he has a tendency to brain fart under pressure. I remember even his first start when Russell had a broken finger, he was moving the ball and then just when it looked like he was gonna win the game he fumbled, and self inflictedly too, like his brain just took a moment to rest… and he does it a lot. It seems like it’s pressure, mental pressure, not physical pass rush pressure, like everything is going great and all of a sudden he drops the ball, falls down, forgets to catch the snap, throws a awkwardly weird out of character pass directly to a 49er when no Seahawk is around, slips diving for a first down, gets stepped on by a lineman, or just plain stands there when the pass rush is coming and goes down. I think he must eat popsicles a lot cause he gets brain freeze….

And his weird attitude makes him even more annoying, Night night…. Makes me want to slap myself in the face….

 

[Sperrydogg]

He's definitely better than Alan Jackson

Not at hootchie cootchie

 

[Sperrydogg]

2 Years ago Geno was on the open market and not one team chose to pay him big money. Now maybe they are foolish for not choosing him but I think it makes it pretty clear what league front offices think of Geno. He also was being shopped by JS this last year with no bites from any team.
I'm not an expert but if the entire league seems to value Geno as not worthy of a big contract and doesn't want to trade for him when he is on a team friendly deal, then the general perception of Geno around the league is he is not a top 10 QB in the league.
I think he has a good arm with good accuracy for the most part and plus athleticism especially for his age. He can also struggle with decision making and gets rattled out there at times. Its pretty easy to see really. Credit to Geno for shrugging off a very bad decision that turned into an INT and making the game winning drive happen last Sunday.
He has enough there to win games and at times look great. He also can get rattled and play very poorly. He has some great stretches and he has terrible stretches. So like Ozzy said you can latch onto whatever you want to highlight and paint whatever picture you want to paint.

2 years ago geno was in the 5th tier of QBs all by himself…

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3443022/2022/07/25/nfl-best-quarterbacks-tiers/

 

[Sperrydogg]

No doubt. It's truly a weapon. And I hope he does it a lot more. Maybe tuck the ball in more when running (huh huh huh)

No kidding he looked like a little kid carrying a loaf of bread home from the store…

 

[keasley45]

Your pulling down stats Keas, but their meaningless because of context. How can you compare what Geno is doing to what Burrow is doing when there's things like different schemes, different personnel, schedule descrepencies, etc,,,? You can't. What your actually trying to say is that Geno is a superior QB than Burrow because other areas grade worse in Seattle than Cinncy and that's crazy. Things arent the same. A true comparison would be to drop each other in each others shoes with the knowledge they both have of the playbooks, the personnel, and the opponents they play. It's impossible to do so. Regardless, we still try to some extent. When doing these comparisons, you use the rankings of the areas around them like the Oline, the running game, and the defense. I look at it differently. No big deal.

Pitt
I dont even know what to say in response. Its impossible to debate a thing when literally claim i said something i didnt. I NEVER said Geno was superior to Burrow. What i said was that if Burrow were in Seattle putting up the exact same numbers as Geno, the folks claiming Geno isnt great would be giving Burrow a pass.

Clear?

I also pointed to the FACT that last year, with a slightly better supporting cast, Burrow finished lower than Geno. That isnt me claiming anything. Its me citing what happened.

I've gone back and looked at QB's too who have had bad running games and bad lines and found multiple guys who have far better numbers (including Wilson a couple of years). That isn't to take anything away from Geno, he is playing admirably behind a bad line and a bad running game. I don't factor in the defense because I don't agree it has anything to do with his numbers. But the guy has 11 touchdowns and 11 picks this year, while admirable he's not setting the league on fire and you have to factor in his weapons he has. Other QB's don't have that luxury as well. I think that's a far more important factor than say defense.

I'm not blasing Geno for being .500, I think again its admirable and he's playing pretty well. The frustrating thing for me is he has all the tools to be elite, he just has too many mental mistakes that keeps him from being one of the elite. But like I said earlier I hope with the improved line comes a great second half stretch for him. We've seen him do it so heck who knows? Maybe he goes on a monster tear and we're all celebrating, its possible.

Ozzy. You are doing it again.

Find ANY example of a QB with the TRIFECTA of bad pieces that Geno has had who has put up better numbers.

Post it.

Otherwise you are just claiming something that doesnt exist.

And Burrow this year - his line is rated around 13th best.

Burrow also has Jamar Chase.

We have DK Metcalf, who has an article written about him and how bad his drops and turnovers are and how they have taken TDs off the board and killed momentum in games this year that we coukd have won.

And therein lies the rub.

You and other flatly ignore the offer to actually debate fact, like finding the QB who has ranked better than Geno with an equally bad supporting cast in 3 aspects of his team. Then you go on and say pattently FALSE things like how Russ and others have done more with less. That in the face of @Maelstrom787 pointing soecifically to that argument months ago and showing that Russ NEVER had to play with a 28th ranked line, 30th ranked defense, and 29th ranked rushing attack at the same time. Its simply false. It has NEVER happened. And thats not cherry picking stats. Its stating obviously that its one thing to 'light it up' regardless of yiur running game being there as Russ did in 17. But he also had a D ranked in the top half of the league. NOT next to last. Do you honestly believe anyone is talking about how incredible that season was for him if our defense never gave him achance to be on the field and let the opposition dominate us every game?

No.

And Russ has shown what he can do when forced to actually play in a pro, NFL offense and NOT run the scramble drill all game. Just look at the offense he runs now and how entirely truncated it is. But you will likely focus on on his TD to INt numbers as valudation of your position and the Steelers record and claim proof of your argument, while ignoring the fact the dude posted completion percentages in the 50s for half his starts and had a qbr of 14 in one... all while running an offense with a killer defense, run game and better protection than ours.

And you dont have to listen to my 'comparisons'. Folks whos job it is to assess film have stated flatly that a guy like Jared Goff who is easily 1 or 2 on the MVP conversation woul likely play worse than Geno if he were in Seattle with the flaws we have.

You just seem to point to things like TD to Int and again, ignore 2Tds pulled off the board in a single game, and an int that shouldnt have happened, when none of that was the qbs fault. Had those stood, the TDs are 13, ints 10. Thats ONE example on a team that league wide and in local and regional media has been the worst at beatung itself with self inflicted play.

You talk about the timeliness of Geno's mistakes and flatly ignore the back breaking timing of drops, penalties and boneheaded mistakes that led to turnovers by that supporting cast you choose to see as stellar when theres an article highlighting ganme by game the mistakes DK made that could havr altered the outcome of games.

But you go straight to how GREAT they are and just slide the result of their faliures to the QB.

Matty F Brown, who straight calls it like it is and basis his assessments on actually game tape and deep analysis has said pretty plainly that :

A: Very few of Geno's INTs have been a resukt of HIS poor play or poor decision making (depsite being one of the most lressured QBs in the league)

B: Geno's TD number are low but thats nit indicative of NOT being able to score because we were near league best in rishing TDs, depsite having a largeley innefective rushing attack? Simple analysis points to why- because Geno has repeatedly gotten us to the one yard linr or inside the 6 and we have just run it in from there.

So using TDs as an argument is again, cherry picking, because the guy who undoubtedly got us inside the 5 was Geno. You faulting him for Grubb choosing to run from there is blind stat farming for the sake of framing an argument.

 

[Sperrydogg]

So I am trying to find a qb who has to deal with what Geno deals with but in the process I found this article about o-line rankings, it’s interesting to see a lot of what you’d expect at the top and bottom, but also a lot of weird stuff too like bad teams with good lines and good teams with bad lines. Mahomes and Lamar have had to deal with bad lines, drake maye has an abysmal line but seems to sparkle, even the broncos line is bad but bo is getting better and better

2024 Offensive Line Rankings

FTN's Dan Fornek ranks all 32 offensive line units in the NFL ahead of the 2024 fantasy football season.

ftnfantasy.com

 

[keasley45]

He's just plain not at the level of Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, Jackson etc. It's not close. People are going to believe what they want to believe, and I respect that.
I just don't agree, that's all. He's above average, can be damn good, but can also be pretty damn bad. He will never be on the level of those guys, ever. But he's a solid fit for THIS team. I expect more from the starting QB, and yes he is working behind a sh** o line, much of the time. He's probably not as good as many make him out to be, all while not being as bad as others make him out to be. He's in the middle somewhere, slightly above average. In that 12-15 range. Hopefully trending up.

I'm hoping Sunday was a huge boost. Not just for him, but for entire team.

Can you point to the post where someone said hes as good as those qbs?

 

[keasley45]

So I am trying to find a qb who has to deal with what Geno deals with but in the process I found this article about o-line rankings, it’s interesting to see a lot of what you’d expect at the top and bottom, but also a lot of weird stuff too like bad teams with good lines and good teams with bad lines. Mahomes and Lamar have had to deal with bad lines, drake maye has an abysmal line but seems to sparkle, even the broncos line is bad but bo is getting better and better

2024 Offensive Line Rankings

FTN's Dan Fornek ranks all 32 offensive line units in the NFL ahead of the 2024 fantasy football season.

ftnfantasy.com

Here's the list of most pressured QBs

NFL Qb Most Pressure 2024 | StatMuse

NFL qb most pressure 2024

www.statmuse.com

All of the QBs you mentioned are in the bottom of the league in terms of pressure. Of bonafied starters in the league, only Rodgers and Cousins have it harder than Geno.

But now look at the defenses of those players you mentioned and their rushing games.

The thing with Seattle the last few years is that its been a recipe for utter failure - no defense. No running game. No protection. And that isnt an exaggeration. You might have a line thats bad, but then you dont have a defense that also doesnt stop the opposition at all. Or a run game that is bottom 3. There are example of teams who rank low on 2 of the 3 areas, but not all 4 where they have found any success or had a qb make more of that situation than Geno. That just is what it is.

Being literally futile three factors almost ALWAYS lead to a top 5 draft pick the following year or top 10, regardless of QB. Because at that point it doesnt matter how good your wrs are because they wont be getting the ball either because your qb is sacked or because your defense isnt getting you the ball back.

Yet, we managed a winning record. Why?

Because our qb is a good bit better than average.

 

[Sperrydogg]

Keas you make a strong point about not very many QBs perform well with poor line play and poor run game, best I can come up with is Peyton manning, a Lamar Jackson, but they had better records than Seattle, so win loss has a lot to do with being considered great as a qb, also Eli manning and drew Brees, and Erin “booger face” rogers did well with pour lines however Eli and booger had good running games and drew Brees had a poor record under those conditions. All these QBs are good. So I guess if Geno could win some playoff games he should be considered elite. I hope he does

 

[Sperrydogg]

Here's the list of most pressured QBs

NFL Qb Most Pressure 2024 | StatMuse

NFL qb most pressure 2024

www.statmuse.com

All of the QBs you mentioned are in the bottom of the league in terms of pressure. Of bonafied starters in the league, only Rodgers and Cousins have it harder than Geno.

But now look at the defenses of those players you mentioned and their rushing games.

The thing with Seattle the last few years is that its been a recipe for utter failure - no defense. No running game. No protection. And that isnt an exaggeration. You might have a line thats bad, but then you dont have a defense that also doesnt stop the opposition at all. Or a run game that is bottom 3. There are example of teams who rank low on 2 of the 3 areas, but not all 4 where they have found any success or had a qb make more of that situation than Geno. That just is what it is.

Being literally futile three factors almost ALWAYS lead to a top 5 draft pick the following year or top 10, regardless of QB. Because at that point it doesnt matter how good your wrs are because they wont be getting the ball either because your qb is sacked or because your defense isnt getting you the ball back.

Yet, we managed a winning record. Why?

Because our qb is a good bit better than average.

The pressures that mahomes and Lamar dealt with were in other seasons, but they did have good defenses. The chiefs lost in the Super Bowl a few years back and went and rebuilt their whole line

 

[Sperrydogg]

Can you point to the post where someone said hes as good as those qbs?

There’s whole threads that call geno elite so if your gonna call him elite you are saying that he is as good as those QBs, not saying you personally called him elite, just saying elite means as good as mahomes or Lamar or even Allen Jackson

 

[Sperrydogg]

Here's the list of most pressured QBs

NFL Qb Most Pressure 2024 | StatMuse

NFL qb most pressure 2024

www.statmuse.com

All of the QBs you mentioned are in the bottom of the league in terms of pressure. Of bonafied starters in the league, only Rodgers and Cousins have it harder than Geno.

But now look at the defenses of those players you mentioned and their rushing games.

The thing with Seattle the last few years is that its been a recipe for utter failure - no defense. No running game. No protection. And that isnt an exaggeration. You might have a line thats bad, but then you dont have a defense that also doesnt stop the opposition at all. Or a run game that is bottom 3. There are example of teams who rank low on 2 of the 3 areas, but not all 4 where they have found any success or had a qb make more of that situation than Geno. That just is what it is.

Being literally futile three factors almost ALWAYS lead to a top 5 draft pick the following year or top 10, regardless of QB. Because at that point it doesnt matter how good your wrs are because they wont be getting the ball either because your qb is sacked or because your defense isnt getting you the ball back.

Yet, we managed a winning record. Why?

Because our qb is a good bit better than average.

And also is a winning record good enough? Like the M’s have a winning record and I’m sick of them. I want more than a winning record. I think geno is good enough and if we surrounded him with good line play and running game and defense we could win a superbowl but so did Trent dilfer and nick foles