Geno wasn’t good this game

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
5,009
Reaction score
9,110
Location
Cockeysville, Md
.com's take on the Geno question... and i agree:

@Seahawkkvancest1, and others, asked some version of, "Should the Seahawks bench Geno Smith?"
No.

Oh, you probably want more than a one-word answer, huh? I addressed Smith’s play, and the seeming disconnect between reality and some fans’ opinion of him, in a recent mailbag, and my thoughts haven’t changed since then. Have there been too many turnovers? Yes, and Smith is the first to say that, but if you actually go back and watch them, between tipped balls, balls hitting his receivers in the hands, a receiver running the wrong route, as DK Metcalf owned up to after the 49ers game, or pressure leading to Smith getting hit has he threw, very few of the interceptions have been mostly, or even at all, his fault. Smith is a huge reason the Seahawks have won the four games they have and been competitive down to the wire in all but one loss. He is far down the list of the reasons why the Seahawks have lost the games they have.
But don't just take my word for it, as Macdonald said Monday, "We've got all the confidence in the world with Geno."

Anoher astute observation in a response to an email question from a fan:

Terry from Lynden asks, "Can you please get a better QB? Gino (sic) sucks in my opinion. We win the first three games then lose the next three. What the heck is going on?"
A: As you can probably tell, this question came before the win in Atlanta, but I'm addressing it anyway because, quite frankly, there are a lot of really bad opinions about Geno Smith floating around out there, and there have been for too long.
First off, if you're going to insult somebody's competence, you should probably at least be able to correctly spell a four-letter first name. (Glass houses, stones, etc.), but getting to the point of this question.
Through seven games, Smith is undoubtedly the MVP of the Seahawks, and not just because he plays the most important position, though that's part of it, but also because he's playing really, really good football, and in several games, doing so while playing in a rather one-dimensional offense, meaning in theory it should make it that much easier for teams to defend the pass and rush the passer.
Despite being pressured at a pretty high rate, Smith has managed to lead the league in passing yards, completing passes at a 68.5 percent rate. His 8-6 touchdown to interception ratio doesn't jump off the stat sheet, but the Seahawks have gotten nine rushing touchdowns from Kenneth Walker III and Zach Charbonnet, and while not great for a quarterback's stats, being able to run in the red zone in huge.

And the majority of those interceptions have been the result of Smith getting hit while he throws, Smith trying to make things happen in desperation time late while trailing, or, as was well documented last week, DK Metcalf breaking off his route just as Smith threw the ball, giving a 49ers cornerback an easy path to the ball in the space Metcalf vacated.
Every week, Smith makes some absurd plays maneuvering in the pocket to avoid a pass rush before firing off an accurate throw, and every week, he makes a throw or two that combines arm strength an accuracy that very, very few quarterbacks on the planet possess.

Seriously, how can people watch plays like that and not see that Smith is a really darn good quarterback?
At this point, it's hard to see why people are down on Smith unless A. they don't actually watch Seahawks games, but are just buying into the (not fully accurate) portrayal of how things went with the Jets early in his career, or B. they just don't know football and don't know what good quarterback play looks like.
 

FrodosFinger

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
2,565
Reaction score
2,626
if Geno turns in another stinker I think we have roll with Sam Howell, a quarterback less prone to mistakes and with a damn good arm
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
5,009
Reaction score
9,110
Location
Cockeysville, Md
if Geno turns in another stinker I think we have roll with Sam Howell, a quarterback less prone to mistakes and with a damn good arm
Geno has yet to turn in a stinker.


Folks need to look beyond the result of the play to understand WHY plays failed.

The above film study by Matty F Brown is an EXCELLENT explanation of what went on last game.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
5,009
Reaction score
9,110
Location
Cockeysville, Md
In reality Geno should have had 5 picks this game. The lambs defenders dropped 2 picks. In my eyes he cost us this win. The 2 picks in the red zone would have given us at least 2 FG. Those were crucial moments in the game.

Take a look at the vid by Matty F Brown on Seahawks Overload.

They start talking about the offense and Geno and some of the debate around his play at around the 19 minute mark.

In a nutshell - Geno aint the issue, nor were the picks his fault. As a matter of fact, they identify his worst decision of the game as the amlost pick he threw that the defender dropped.

The real issue? Our offensive scheme is bad. Our o line scheme (less players) is bad, and even if you dropped in Jared Goff, things wouldnt get better. As a matter of fact, they both agree that if Goff had to play in our offense, he'd be far worse than Geno.

And neither of them are Geno homers. They just do a really good job of breaking the team down, the offense and defense and individual plays.
 

Fresno Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
853
Reaction score
795
No, it shows passing offense. Not total offense. Pass offense is isolated in both charts. Yards per dropback does not include rush attempts. Also, it started to dip in 2020, not 2022.

There were 24 3000 yard passers in 2012 and 19 in 2023. That is WITH AN EXTRA GAME IN 2023.

The top passer (yardage) in 2012, Brees, threw for 5177 yards, 43 TDs, and 19 INTs. The top passer in 2023, Tua, threw for 4624 yards, 29 TDs, and 14 INTs.

In 2024, we have the top passing yards per game at 268.2 as a team. That would've been 7th best in 2012, and over 40 yards a game below the top team, New Orleans.

Sorry, but it's just objectively not true that passing was harder in 2012. Passing stats were significantly better league-wide.
One: Because defenders aren’t allowed to play as physical coverage as they used to, making it easier for WR to run routes

Two: Because it’s normally not legal to hit WR going over the middle like they used to do

Those are the two main reasons.

Quarterbacks can normally play longer now because they don’t take the hits they used to, overall atleast. You have guys like Andrew Luck and Carson Wentz who had their careers affected by injury, so what Brady has done is still amazing.

Mahomes isnt “overrated” because he runs out of bounds, he does that so he doesn’t get hit (he’s not RGIII). That sounds like it’s just someone hating. Mahomes, like all other modern quarterbacks, benefit from rules protecting quarterbacks, pretending they aren't is ridiculous. Even Teddy Bridgewater draws roughing the passer calls that superstar Joe Montana never would’ve gotten. This is why it's easier to pass now days.
 
Last edited:

ZagHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
2,337
Reaction score
376
This is my take on Geno from a non football expert. I see him as someone who just confidently throws the football in all situations. Which means sometimes it looks great because he got the ball out quickly into a tight window and it looks amazing. Other times it looks really bad because well...it gets picked off. This explains why there have been several cases during end of game drives, he will drive up the field very effectively and then throwing a pick at the end. Because eventually that (over) confidence will catch up to you.

I have used this analogy before, but if I shoot 10 3-point shots in basketball, and I air ball 5 of them and the other 5, I get nothing but net. I should not point to the 5 swishes and say I'm an elite shooter that sometimes misses or takes a bad shot. I have to accept the fact that I am in reality an average shooter (at best). This is what Geno is...he's a slightly above average QB, but the way he plays which is forcing throws makes him look good when it works, and terrible when it does not.

Meanwhile maybe there's another shooter who may consistently make 8-9 shots out of every 10 shots, but sometimes that ball wobbles, banks, rolls the rim, etc.... Those shots may look questionable, sometimes even "lucky roll/bounce", but that reality is that person is a better shooter.
 

Fresno Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
853
Reaction score
795
Take a look at the vid by Matty F Brown on Seahawks Overload.

They start talking about the offense and Geno and some of the debate around his play at around the 19 minute mark.

In a nutshell - Geno aint the issue, nor were the picks his fault. As a matter of fact, they identify his worst decision of the game as the amlost pick he threw that the defender dropped.

The real issue? Our offensive scheme is bad. Our o line scheme (less players) is bad, and even if you dropped in Jared Goff, things wouldnt get better. As a matter of fact, they both agree that if Goff had to play in our offense, he'd be far worse than Geno.

And neither of them are Geno homers. They just do a really good job of breaking the team down, the offense and defense and individual plays.
Now to say that none of these picks that Geno threw weren't his fault is a stretch. Even if Matty Brown shows his piont a veiw. It doesn't change the fact that Geno threw the balls. All he had to do was take the sack and play another down. Decision making is the issue, when under pressure. That most people are seeing. I'm not a expert but this is and has been a flaw of Geno. As a side note I do think our Offensive scheme is horrible. And I do think Grubbs sucks. Not a fan.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
5,009
Reaction score
9,110
Location
Cockeysville, Md
Now to say that none of these picks that Geno threw weren't his fault is a stretch. Even if Matty Brown shows his piont a veiw. It doesn't change the fact that Geno threw the balls. All he had to do was take the sack and play another down. Decision making is the issue, when under pressure. That most people are seeing. I'm not a expert but this is and has been a flaw of Geno. As a side note I do think our Offensive scheme is horrible. And I do think Grubbs sucks. Not a fan.
Disagree completely. If a ball hits a receiver in the Chesapeake and then bounces off him and is picked, is that is fault?

If a qb throws the ball to a spot a wr is supposed to be and that wr is held, and on the process a defender steps in and makes the play, is that his fault?

If a qb is throwing the ball and his arm is hit and the ball is picked as a result. Is that decision making?

And if your qb is ranked in the top 10 of the league in NOT throwing interceptable balls (as a ratio of total balls tbrown) does he really have a problem with decision making?

And when he is BY FAR the most pressure qb in thr league and in an offense that is entirely one dimensional, behind a line that is a turnstile, but he is top 10 in a few statistical categories and is proven VERY good at getting the ball out and avoiding unnecessary sacks, doesnt that point to a really good player?

Matty Brown isnt just offering an opinion. He's providing assessment after breaking down film in detail and explain the facts of what occurred.

Opinion is cool. But opinion isnt reality.
 

Fresno Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
853
Reaction score
795
Disagree completely. If a ball hits a receiver in the Chesapeake and then bounces off him and is picked, is that is fault?

If a qb throws the ball to a spot a wr is supposed to be and that wr is held, and on the process a defender steps in and makes the play, is that his fault?

If a qb is throwing the ball and his arm is hit and the ball is picked as a result. Is that decision making?

And if your qb is ranked in the top 10 of the league in NOT throwing interceptable balls (as a ratio of total balls tbrown) does he really have a problem with decision making?

And when he is BY FAR the most pressure qb in thr league and in an offense that is entirely one dimensional, behind a line that is a turnstile, but he is top 10 in a few statistical categories and is proven VERY good at getting the ball out and avoiding unnecessary sacks, doesnt that point to a really good player?

Matty Brown isnt just offering an opinion. He's providing assessment after breaking down film in detail and explain the facts of what occurred.

Opinion is cool. But opinion isnt reality.
Ok, so the pass that JSN jumped for that was not on Geno. That i agree with.

If your talking about the pass to Barner, that was on Geno because he was looking right at Barner get blown up. That should have been thrown to the dirt for the incompletion. Not thrown to a spot. You could clearly see the play was dead.

Or the thrown ball that was intercepted at the goaline where he got his arm hit. It was his decision to try and force the ball in the endzone he was caught why try and force it.

He maybe the most pressure Qb in the league but how many of those are on him. As a good decision maker shouldn't he see these things at the line of scrimmage and make a play change to a quicker pass.

Does the fact that Geno has a top 3 Wr tandem not help with his ratio of interception's.
Again these film study sessions are only pointing out what they want. Everyone can say they aren't biased but for the most part they are.
This is beyond Mattys film studying.
 
Last edited:

FrodosFinger

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
2,565
Reaction score
2,626
Ok, so the pass that JSN jumped for that was not on Geno. That i agree with.

If your talking about the pass to Barner, that was on Geno because he was looking right at Barner get blown up. That should have been thrown to the dirt for the incompletion. Not thrown to a spot. You could clearly see the play was dead.

Or the thrown ball that was intercepted at the goaline where he got his arm hit. It was his decision to try and force the ball in the endzone he was caught why try and force it.

He maybe the most pressure Qb in the league but how many of those are on him. As a good decision maker shouldn't he see these things at the line of scrimmage and make a play change to a quicker pass.

Does the fact that Geno has a top 3 Wr tandem not help with his ratio of interception's.
Again these film study sessions are only pointing out what they want. Everyone can say they aren't biased but for the most part they are.
This is beyond Mattys film studying.
JSN jumped because the ball was high and behind him. Almost made a spectacular catch given the ****** up ball placement. Geno stinks when poor decisions from happy feet lead to picks
 

knownone

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
5,805
Reaction score
2,953
Ok, so the pass that JSN jumped for that was not on Geno. That i agree with.

If your talking about the pass to Barner, that was on Geno because he was looking right at Barner get blown up. That should have been thrown to the dirt for the incompletion. Not thrown to a spot. You could clearly see the play was dead.

Or the thrown ball that was intercepted at the goaline where he got his arm hit. It was his decision to try and force the ball in the endzone he was caught why try and force it.

He maybe the most pressure Qb in the league but how many of those are on him. As a good decision maker shouldn't he see these things at the line of scrimmage and make a play change to a quicker pass.

Does the fact that Geno has a top 3 Wr tandem not help with his ratio of interception's.
Again these film study sessions are only pointing out what they want. Everyone can say they aren't biased but for the most part they are.
This is beyond Mattys film studying.
Few things: A) The ball is leaving Geno's hands as Barner gets bumped/grabbed, and Geno's has a free rusher in his face. That was a catastrophic failure by the entire right side of the line. B) On the interception where Geno gets hit, he's throwing the ball away. He wasn't trying to force it.

If we're talking about bias, I'd agree on Seahawks fans. But what about a neutral sources like PFF that doesn't grade Geno poorly for this game? From my vantage point, most of the neutral perspective seem to favor Geno, while Seahawks fans tend to be the ones that grade him harshly.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
5,009
Reaction score
9,110
Location
Cockeysville, Md
Ok, so the pass that JSN jumped for that was not on Geno. That i agree with.

If your talking about the pass to Barner, that was on Geno because he was looking right at Barner get blown up. That should have been thrown to the dirt for the incompletion. Not thrown to a spot. You could clearly see the play was dead.

Or the thrown ball that was intercepted at the goaline where he got his arm hit. It was his decision to try and force the ball in the endzone he was caught why try and force it.

He maybe the most pressure Qb in the league but how many of those are on him. As a good decision maker shouldn't he see these things at the line of scrimmage and make a play change to a quicker pass.

Does the fact that Geno has a top 3 Wr tandem not help with his ratio of interception's.
Again these film study sessions are only pointing out what they want. Everyone can say they aren't biased but for the most part they are.
This is beyond Mattys film studying.

Its been shown the pressures arent 'on him' as he is statistically one of the better QBs in the league at getting thr ball out. So, whether by Matty's review, others review, NFL stats, advanced metrics, PFF... none say that he holds the ball. They all say he's really good at getting the ball out.

As to his wrs, it's also been discussed now for a few weeks that the offense is one dimensional both in terms of the fact that we dont run AND that we pass primarily only out of shotgun and dont use PA effectively. So having a great receiving core is necessary to even have a chance to win. Its not going to mitigate against the built in flaws we have when defenses have a good idea where those wrs are going to be, or those wrs dont even have a chance to get open because the qb is getting pressured.

Saying he saw Barner getting held and shouldn't have thrown the ball is the stuff of fantasy. First, half the good qbs in the league throw that ball EVEN IF THERE GUY IS BEING HELD, because they see the hold and play for the flag. The flag wasnt thrown and the hold was obvious. Even the Rans player knew it and registered it in his reaction. Second, that play...was a split second play. Its not the kind of play you wait to see coverage on. Its either there or it's not. And save for the hold, it WAS there. The step Barner lost to the hold occurred over the period of time the qb started his throwing motion up and released the ball. There was no defender impeding Barner. No LB out front, so the play was by every account a greenlight throw.

You've see Geno simply throw the ball at a rb or te's feet on similar plays when its been blown up. Thats not what happened on that play.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
5,009
Reaction score
9,110
Location
Cockeysville, Md
JSN jumped because the ball was high and behind him. Almost made a spectacular catch given the ****** up ball placement. Geno stinks when poor decisions from happy feet lead to picks

This is also patently false as the dude is rated as one of the tops in thr league, if not THE top at throwing catchable balls / accurate balls whether unde pressure or not.

The fact that he has a beyond solid completion percentage DESPITE being the most pressure qb in thleague completely blows up the notion he gets happy feet and becomes inaccurate.

He is rarely NOT under pressure, regularly is getting crushed as he is releasing the ball or immediately after, and STILL is putting up top 10 numbers.
 

FrodosFinger

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
2,565
Reaction score
2,626
The magnitude of his costly turnovers are some of the most momentum shifting mistakes I’ve ever seen in the history of football. It’s either at our goal line or theirs and usually a 14 point swing. Sometimes you just have to eat it as a quarterback and live to fight another down.
 

Fresno Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
853
Reaction score
795
Its been shown the pressures arent 'on him' as he is statistically one of the better QBs in the league at getting thr ball out. So, whether by Matty's review, others review, NFL stats, advanced metrics, PFF... none say that he holds the ball. They all say he's really good at getting the ball out.

As to his wrs, it's also been discussed now for a few weeks that the offense is one dimensional both in terms of the fact that we dont run AND that we pass primarily only out of shotgun and dont use PA effectively. So having a great receiving core is necessary to even have a chance to win. Its not going to mitigate against the built in flaws we have when defenses have a good idea where those wrs are going to be, or those wrs dont even have a chance to get open because the qb is getting pressured.

Saying he saw Barner getting held and shouldn't have thrown the ball is the stuff of fantasy. First, half the good qbs in the league throw that ball EVEN IF THERE GUY IS BEING HELD, because they see the hold and play for the flag. The flag wasnt thrown and the hold was obvious. Even the Rans player knew it and registered it in his reaction. Second, that play...was a split second play. Its not the kind of play you wait to see coverage on. Its either there or it's not. And save for the hold, it WAS there. The step Barner lost to the hold occurred over the period of time the qb started his throwing motion up and released the ball. There was no defender impeding Barner. No LB out front, so the play was by every account a greenlight throw.

You've see Geno simply throw the ball at a rb or te's feet on similar plays when its been blown up. Thats not what happened on that play.
I went back and watched the play to Barner and you can clearly see the play getting blown up from the start with Geno looking right at him. Like I said before you guys keep trying to point out stats. But in real life in the heat of the moment is where you see this stuff happening. Again stats don't tell the whole story.
 

Fresno Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
853
Reaction score
795
Few things: A) The ball is leaving Geno's hands as Barner gets bumped/grabbed, and Geno's has a free rusher in his face. That was a catastrophic failure by the entire right side of the line. B) On the interception where Geno gets hit, he's throwing the ball away. He wasn't trying to force it.

If we're talking about bias, I'd agree on Seahawks fans. But what about a neutral sources like PFF that doesn't grade Geno poorly for this game? From my vantage point, most of the neutral perspective seem to favor Geno, while Seahawks fans tend to be the ones that grade him harshly.
The thing is Geno is looking right him and from the start the dline is already in the back field. As a 10 plus year vet your saying he cat see the play being blown up from the start.
On the play where your claiming he is throwing the ball away, it's still a bad decision to try and throw the ball away in the endzone. That's clearly where he is looking there are no signs of him throwing it to the sideline out of harms way.
 

Maelstrom787

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
13,434
Reaction score
12,655
Location
Delaware
JSN jumped because the ball was high and behind him. Almost made a spectacular catch given the ****** up ball placement. Geno stinks when poor decisions from happy feet lead to picks
One would have to jump through some serious hoops to blame a quarterback for an interception that bounces off of his wide receivers pads.

Not every pass over the middle is meant to hit a player in stride, especially when JSN would've been liable to get creamed. He wasn't even in stride.

Geno's pass was putting JSN in clearer space.
 

Ozzy

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
11,647
Reaction score
6,495
The magnitude of his costly turnovers are some of the most momentum shifting mistakes I’ve ever seen in the history of football. It’s either at our goal line or theirs and usually a 14 point swing. Sometimes you just have to eat it as a quarterback and live to fight another down.
This is the point that is continually overlooked. Most people agree when hes on he's great. He does throw a great catchable ball, the stats clearly show it. His efficiency stats are pretty good. Ben Baldwin's metrics which take into account everything have him rated 16th which I think is fair and lower than many in here have him but still pretty good.

But his mistakes just seem to happen at the worst time for massive swings. Brock talked about this on the radio and he's a big Geno supporter so its not just Geno-hater thing as is often said. Both can be true.
 

Appyhawk

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
4,634
Reaction score
2,542
Location
Ranch in Flint Hills of Kansas, formerly NW Montan
Come on, this loss is as much his fault as anyone. He is absolutely not one of the best in the league right now, at all. I respect your opinion, but damn. Geno? One of the best in the league?
Ignore the numbers and just watch the "best QBs" in the league. Name those who consistently play without fault. There aren't any, even though they all play behind an O Line superior to ours.
Geno takes the blame and some of that is deserved, but there are cause and effect issues that tend to fog perspective.
 

Chapow

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
6,130
Reaction score
2,159
Even if you're inclined to place the blame entirely on Geno for the 3 picks (and as we've seen repeatedly in this thread, that's awfully questionable), and disregard the immense pressure he was facing all game long, Geno still passed for 363 yards, 3 TD's, and had his team in a position to kick the go ahead FG from the Rams 16 yard line in OT (on a day his defense had only given up 13 points).

I'm not saying Geno was perfect. Not at all. Geno certainly had some bad moments and made some mistakes. But even on a day that many here are describing as horrible, awful, garbage, he was so bad he should be benched moving forward, etc., he still did a lot of really good things and put his team in a position to take the lead in OT.
 
Top