31-13. It actually wasn't that close.

[Xxx]

I read somebody say, “last year there was no real tape on geno”

That makes so much sense. He has gotten worse consistently and linearly since the middle of last year. And this year he has now become unviable

 

[Maelstrom787]

But again people are arguing that Waldron is a rebel who is going against Pete week, after week, after week and Pete is powerless against a young OC with no experience. I just can’t see that happening and if it is, then Pete apologists should be calling for him to be fired because that is negligent but they don’t typically

I don't think that he's being a rebel. I think that Pete isn't being forceful enough with directing the gameplan, and I think that even if he does at this point, he doesn't have the time to build on anything that he orders to happen.

 

[Maelstrom787]

And to expand, I think that's entirely fair. I just can't reconcile the idea that the offensive coordinators are totally powerless mouthpieces with the reality we've seen play out over the past decade and a half of football here.

 

[Xxx]

Well I would argue there are rarely plays where everyone is running 15 yards down the field. I posted a pic from Duggar where 3 of the 4 were layered with every area of the field is utilized and yet people were arguing that it was all deep shots. I don’t think perception is reality

I was agreeing with you, but I saw it on 3rd and 8 today, I watched geno get sacked as everyone on the screen run full speed past the first down line without even starting to look for the ball. Someone should have been turned by five yards and the ball get there at the first down line. It was many different bad ways

 

[Ozzy]

I don't think that he's being a rebel. I think that Pete isn't being forceful enough with directing the gameplan, and I think that even if he does at this point, he doesn't have the time to build on anything that he orders to happen.

Fair enough but it’s hard to believe that would be going on for 12 weeks so blatantly and it’s even going on early in games for me to believe that. I would also argue the idea that Waldron is only calling bombs and is too stupid to have an outlet or two wildly overstated

 

[Ozzy]

I was agreeing with you, but I saw it on 3rd and 8 today, I watched geno get sacked as everyone on the screen run full speed past the first down line without even starting to look for the ball. Someone should have been turned by five yards and the ball get there at the first down line. It was many different bad ways

O you’re right Waldron needs to get drastically better too.

 

[Xxx]

Well I would argue there are rarely plays where everyone is running 15 yards down the field. I posted a pic from Duggar where 3 of the 4 were layered with every area of the field is utilized and yet people were arguing that it was all deep shots. I don’t think perception is reality

I saw that stuff too

 

[RolandDeschain]

I was agreeing with you, but I saw it on 3rd and 8 today, I watched geno get sacked as everyone on the screen run full speed past the first down line without even starting to look for the ball. Someone should have been turned by five yards and the ball get there at the first down line. It was many different bad ways

We have a real problem with sending multiple receivers on long-developing routes and sticking with it when pressure it consistently getting to the QB quickly, that doesn't mean that all long-developing routes are deep routes.

 

[Ozzy]

I saw that stuff too

But again you’re right too. It’s a mess lol

 

[pittpnthrs]

This just straight up isn't true. We can't be convincing ourselves into thinking the offensive playcaller has no authority over how the offense is run.

The argument that the culpability lies on Pete regardless as the head executive of the organization? Totally get it, can't argue with it. Game passing Pete by? Fair!

But to say the OC has no power?

...How?

I believe the OC has certain parameters he has to follow in his play calling and play design. That's the Pete factor.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Fair enough but it’s hard to believe that would be going on for 12 weeks so blatantly and it’s even going on early in games for me to believe that. I would also argue the idea that Waldron is only calling bombs and is too stupid to have an outlet or two wildly overstated

Realistically, Shane Waldron is a good football coach. Any offensive coordinator in the NFL is supremely talented in terms of football knowledge. It's never as simple as "this guy is actually a stupid human being" at the NFL level, outside of game day forum angry yelling. They've forgotten more than most of us will ever know.

With that said, there's absolutely some extenuating complications that aren't fully clear as to why the games are being called the way they are. We can see the problems on TAPE, sure, but the issue would be that we don't have any inside context for why calls are they way they are. It's not going to be explained away with "Shane Waldron is stupid," but for me, it leads more to "Shane Waldron, through some unclear course of action over the years, is now leading an offense that lacks both identity and refinement, and a systemic issue of unknown origin is present that leads me to believe he is an unacceptable fit for the franchise going forward."

All we can tell as fans, beyond doubt, is what the functional issues on tape are. We can read into meaning, sure, but we'll never get it for sure.

 

[Maelstrom787]

It's like working in a run-of-the-mill corporation, ya know? You quickly realize that managers/colleagues/etc. from other departments are absolute idiots.

Are they in reality? No. They just do things differently, to achieve different goals than the ones you're focused on, and there's a significant amount of lost context there.

Same kind of deal applies here, in my view.

 

[Ozzy]

I believe the OC has certain parameters he has to follow in his play calling and play design. That's the Pete factor.

Yeah a coach with Pete’s experience is going to have some control over the offensive game planning especially with a rookie OC. And if he doesn’t and it’s week after week of failure because the OC isn’t calling a good game then what does that say about Pete? If that’s true people should be arguing for Pete to go as much as Waldron

 

[Xxx]

We have a real problem with sending multiple receivers on long-developing routes and sticking with it when pressure it consistently getting to the QB quickly, that doesn't mean that all long-developing routes are deep routes.

Absolutely true. Drag routes are slow double moves are slow. Slants aren’t slow neither are curls aren’t sitting down over the middle isn’t tight end leaks running back leaks or curls over the middle… screens over the middle.. not shovel passes to people 4 yards behind the line who are already being hugged by a 300 pound gold miner

 

[Xxx]

Realistically, Shane Waldron is a good football coach. Any offensive coordinator in the NFL is supremely talented in terms of football knowledge. It's never as simple as "this guy is actually a stupid human being" at the NFL level, outside of game day forum angry yelling. They've forgotten more than most of us will ever know.

With that said, there's absolutely some extenuating complications that aren't fully clear as to why the games are being called the way they are. We can see the problems on TAPE, sure, but the issue would be that we don't have any inside context for why calls are they way they are. It's not going to be explained away with "Shane Waldron is stupid," but for me, it leads more to "Shane Waldron, through some unclear course of action over the years, is now leading an offense that lacks both identity and refinement, and a systemic issue of unknown origin is present that leads me to believe he is an unacceptable fit for the franchise going forward."

All we can tell as fans, beyond doubt, is what the functional issues on tape are. We can read into meaning, sure, but we'll never get it for sure.

I’ve seen too much ingenuity from Waldron to think he’s completely incompetent. But your right something is wrong underneath because they don’t look like they know how to play

 

[Maelstrom787]

Here's another example of how we're unable, as fans, to consider every angle. I'll make it fairly rudimentary for brevity's sake.

Say that, in film preparation, Waldron identifies that an opposing safety is prone to biting on an underneath crossing route to take it away. He may decide, therefore, to call a couple of crossing routes that are ultimately unsuccessful.

This'd piss us off, because we'd say "Hey, Waldron, that shit isn't working. Dumbass." His goal, in this case, wouldn't be to simply call a successful play. It'd be to set up a shot later where the offense can take advantage of that tendency. Start by reinforcing the thought in that opponents mind that the tendency is correct, and then dial up a shot that earns a gain off of the safety biting.

That would be context we don't have that exemplifies rational thought behind the playcalls we may deem unimaginative or ill-conceived.

My issue is on a macro level, and this isn't a defense of him, per se - but it's not going to be as simple as "we have dumbass idiots, and other people are not dumbass idiots."

I try to acknowledge this in my posts, outside of the gameday forum. The amount of high-level nuance that goes into this is frankly impossible to imagine. This is why I don't like easy answers like "Pete's dictating all of this" or "There is only one issue with this team and it's -insert coach-." Occam's razor is not an applicable thought principle when your inside knowledge is as limited as that of a fan.

Football organizations are leviathans.

 

[Ozzy]

Good post. I still feel like people are overstating the fact that the very things people are claiming aren’t being called are in fact being called and execution is probably a bigger element than people realize. This isn’t removing blame from Waldron because he needs to be better though

 

[Maelstrom787]

Good post. I still feel like people are overstating the fact that the very things people are claiming aren’t being called are in fact being called and execution is probably a bigger element than people realize. This isn’t removing blame from Waldron because he needs to be better though

Drank a Tom Collins more than I usually would this Thanksgiving. Watching this nightmare unfold tonight almost felt like a dream. It begets deeper introspection.

The gin got me wildin' out.

 

[Kamcussionator]

KJ said on his podcast last week that Pete doesn't do offensive play calling, so let's not try to pin a specific play in the game on PC. KJ also said that our offense is super simple and that he was calling the plays before the ball was snapped against the Rams.

So the big question for me is: why is our offense so vanilla simple? Is it because Waldron doesn't know his X's and O's? I find that hard to believe based on his experience on McVay's staff. My suspicion is that we have personnel limitations that prevent us from running a more varied attack.

SF's line is a murderer's row. Were we chipping, rolling out, throwing screens, or doing a dozen other things you're supposed to do to slow a pass rush? No. Geno doesn't work well with a dirty pocket and we weren't doing anything scheme-wise to help him out. I want to know why.

 

[Ozzy]

KJ said on his podcast last week that Pete doesn't do offensive play calling, so let's not try to pin a specific play in the game on PC. KJ also said that our offense is super simple and that he was calling the plays before the ball was snapped against the Rams.

So the big question for me is: why is our offense so vanilla simple? Is it because Waldron doesn't know his X's and O's? I find that hard to believe based on his experience on McVay's staff. My suspicion is that we have personnel limitations that prevent us from running a more varied attack.

SF's line is a murderer's row. Were we chipping, rolling out, throwing screens, or doing a dozen other things you're supposed to do to slow a pass rush? No. Geno doesn't work well with a dirty pocket and we weren't doing anything scheme-wise to help him out. I want to know why.

No one thinks Pete calls the plays. That’s an oversimplification of the issue. It’s how much say does Pete have of the game plan, the philosophy and the preparation. You do raise some valid questions too though